morality!

format_quote Originally Posted by What Is Truth?

I'm no Thomist, so I'm really not sure. Aquinas identified God's essence with his existence which complicates things, and I don't know if he brought that idea into his virtue ethics (given the colossal amount he wrote, it's pretty likely he did).

I'm not saying that goodness flows from God, but that moral laws flow from God's essence (which is goodness itself). You seem to be mixing up the two in your post - for me, goodness is the moral standard, whereas moral laws are "commands" that tell us how to attain that standard (in a particular context).

I don't know what you mean when you say Goodness flows from God. I am inclined to agree with Skavu that you're just saying something for the sake of saying it. Too vague to be considered. Perhaps you can clarify. Also, you did not answer my question about morals changing. If morality is based on the goodness that flows from God why does morality change? After reading your other post again, I think it is entirely necessary for you to define Goodness and the terms contained in your posts. My point wasn't that we can calculate goodness from a deontological viewpoint or anything of the sort; my point was either way the theistic metaethic isn't in any better position than the atheistic since it seems to be thrown around here that atheists are morally bankrupt.

I have provided reasons; if the woman cannot have children it would make her happy to see her husband be given children by another woman, since it is one task she could not fulfill. It is not a generalization because I am not saying this is the only reason or even a common reason but it could be a reason.

Hm, the Quran doesn't say if your wife is barren you can marry another wife to have children with. It doesn't mention that at all. you are trying to defend the rule by appealing to a possible way it can be used for good but the rule itself allows for a man to marry for less than noble reasons. So the rule in itself is either poorly thought out or sexist or doesn't lead to happiness or all 3.

Natural intuition says that radiation is bad for you yet you're more likely to live with radiation therapy if you have cancer than without it

That isn't what I mean by natural intuition. What I meant was on the face of it, having your spouse sleep with others is a serious cause of unhappiness. So the burden of proof lies on the Muslims supporting this rule to show the benefits. That person is you since you are claiming it will lead to happiness in the long run: you should therefore provide reasons for all instances permitted by the rule including a man marrying 3 times against his wife's wishes for no other reason but to sleep with more than one woman. This is an injustice don't you think? Wouldn't you find it bad treatment by your wife if she was sleeping with a different man every other night (or however she divides the time)? Clearly, this rule was meant for a certain type of people during a certain period of time for certain conditions.

I said in my initial post that it could not be measured exhaustively in a lifetime but you can see it as you live your life, that following the religion and doing good is good for you. Why is it all about sexual needs? People marry for other reasons too, you make it sound so perverted

This general statement is not true is what I am trying to say.

One question: why?

You pretty much just said that those rules were awesome. So why would you want to do without them?

p.s; on the subject of multiple wives and husbands: Male's psychological make up is different to female's (just like their biology and chemistry) - a system that recognises that is a clever system indeed!

The problem with these rules are that things change and a static set of rules cannot keep up with change. The 4 wives thing is one example. If you have a bunch of laws and morals set in stone then you're going to face serious problems. Secular laws have that advantage of dogmatic laws in the bible or quran because they can account for changes in multiculturalism or technological advancements, scientific advancements etc. Like I mentioned in another thread, slavery doesn't work for a capitalist society that is why it was abolished in the U.S civil war: laws changed for the benefit of the society.

People have always thought women were different from men. How do you think sexism is justified? And I am no psychologist but I think women get a little upset, as do men, when their partners start sleeping with others. Lol.

Originally Posted by Skavau

This response is loaded with bias. You, of course are compelled to believe that sodomy and sexual liberty are immoral because that is what Islam claims it is. I do not share this perspective. In any case, it does not address the fact that morals by their nature are a system of compromise within groups of people regarding what actions ought and ought not be taken.

As a muslim I believe that those filthy and disgusting acts are forbidden by Allah, so yes you can say its biased but I'm pretty sure even if I weren't muslim I'd still have the same views. Like you said morals require compromise which is where your view of choosing whats moral and what isn't is flawed. You have a look at todays society and how many acts deemed immoral in the past are now somehow moral, you can see that there is no consistency, tribes in africa will have different views of morals, redknecks in america will have different views of morals. There is no set of decreed morals for the whole world, this is where religion makes life easy.

I am not talking about Islam - I am asking how you know that religion has or was the only system ever to condemn murder.

I doubt it was the only system as murder is something that affects society quite badly, it wouldn't be hard to work out its wrong, but for other acts which aren't harmful (in plain view) but are immoral according to certain religions how would people work out they're wrong, obviously they need to be told its wrong.

Thoroughly debatable, but outright off-topic.


I am not a Muslim. Why would I want to live under a theocratic state? I certainly would not want to live in that time. Lower life expectancy, less outlets for entertainment, less knowledge about how the world works. Why would it be of value to me?

hmm yh I can't see it appealing to non-muslims too much, but non-muslims did get benefits such as housing and allowances, also benefited from alot less crime, less evil in society - don't know if that appeals to you? Obviously if such a islamic state existed today I bet they would be milestones ahead in knowledge and healthcare, you just need to look at how this was already happening at the time under the islamic empire

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

As a muslim I believe that those filthy and disgusting acts are forbidden by Allah, so yes you can say its biased but I'm pretty sure even if I weren't muslim I'd still have the same views.

That of course, depends on the environment you were bought up in and by who. If you say, left Islam for whatever reason I daresay you would maintain many biases from your beliefs, at least for a while.

Like you said morals require compromise which is where your view of choosing whats moral and what isn't is flawed.

You are saying that morality is a system of compromise? I also say that. It is, at the very least a considerable aspect of how it functions. So in what way is my perspective here specifically flawed?

You have a look at todays society and how many acts deemed immoral in the past are now somehow moral, you can see that there is no consistency, tribes in africa will have different views of morals, redknecks in america will have different views of morals. There is no set of decreed morals for the whole world, this is where religion makes life easy.

I'm not sure why clarity matters so much. I don't take moral advice from small animistic tribes in Africa. Their moral conduct is often based on survival and superstition. We have moved on past that for a very good reason.

In any case, your premise appears to be an impossibility. You are proposing an unrealistic ideal. That every single human on the entire planet agrees absolutely on what standards we all ought to live by. How exactly can that happen? And how exactly is religion the only unique foundation for that? We see that a redneck Christian has a specifically different view on morality than a practicing Catholic living in Italy. We can see that a Hindu living in India has also a different moral system than a Cambodian Buddhist, or an Iranian Muslim, or a Israeli Orthodox Jew, or a Russian Orthodox Christian. Many of the affiliations I referenced above also claim to be divine, or represented by the divine. The adherents, as you do claim to be privy to a unique insight of human behaviour and yet we still have this inconsistency. Not only do all the major religions disagree, but they also schism and differentiate further.

hmm yh I can't see it appealing to non-muslims too much, but non-muslims did get benefits such as housing and allowances, also benefited from alot less crime, less evil in society - don't know if that appeals to you? Obviously if such a islamic state existed today I bet they would be milestones ahead in knowledge and healthcare, you just need to look at how this was already happening at the time under the islamic empire

I disagree in living under a state where the elect claim to have divine guidance, insight, or divine powers.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx

Hm, the Quran doesn't say if your wife is barren you can marry another wife to have children with. It doesn't mention that at all. you are trying to defend the rule by appealing to a possible way it can be used for good but the rule itself allows for a man to marry for less than noble reasons. So the rule in itself is either poorly thought out or sexist or doesn't lead to happiness or all 3.

As long as the man follows it for a reason which is not labelled as wrong under Islam it IS a noble reason.

That isn't what I mean by natural intuition. What I meant was on the face of it, having your spouse sleep with others is a serious cause of unhappiness. So the burden of proof lies on the Muslims supporting this rule to show the benefits.

No, the burden of proof would lie on you if anyone (since it is your thread and you wishing to prove good and bad are not dependant on God, therefore you need to provide proof against established Islamic belief for us).
You are stating that it leads to unhappiness based on your own moral compass and not on fact. Do a study which meets the requirements stated, going against what I wrote, and then the burden of proof will be on me.

This general statement is not true is what I am trying to say.

And that's fine. Nobody is stopping you from saying it, but it doesn't change that it is merely your opinion and not a fact.

format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless

As long as the man follows it for a reason which is not labelled as wrong under Islam it IS a noble reason.




No, the burden of proof would lie on you if anyone (since it is your thread and you wishing to prove good and bad are not dependant on God, therefore you need to provide proof against established Islamic belief for us).
You are stating that it leads to unhappiness based on your own moral compass and not on fact. Do a study which meets the requirements stated, going against what I wrote, and then the burden of proof will be on me.




And that's fine. Nobody is stopping you from saying it, but it doesn't change that it is merely your opinion and not a fact.

Yes, and that is why religious dogma fails. No matter what is written down it is to be accepted as true & noble even if confers no advantage to society except unhappiness.

Also, my point in the thread is not that we don't need God to have absolute morals; my point was even if you assumed God existed, without the reasoning behind his decisions as to what is morally right or wrong, you are in no better position than the atheist except you have someone forcing you to agree with the threat of Hellfire.

Lastly, happiness and unhappines have nothing to do with what moral standards are right; they're objective feelings that either exist or don't. My moral compass does not change whether or not a person feels happy. Their happiness is purely a biological phenomenon and it is either objectively true or objectively false that person x feels unhappy. I Don't know how honest you are being with yourself. If you demand proof about whether or not a woman who does not want her husband to marry another woman is unhappy after he does marry another woman...then you imagine how you would feel if your wife married another man and was sleeping with him; then imagine how much worse it would feel if it actually happened. This is simply a natural feeling we have towards our partners. The literature on human jealousy is vast. But anyway this particular discussion, although interesting, has nothing to do with my OP. Even if the rules of religion led to overall happiness (which is clearly debatable and probably not true) it wouldn't matter. Lots of things keep lots of people happy including secular laws (perhaps especially secular laws more than any other set of laws in history).

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau

You are saying that morality is a system of compromise? I also say that. It is, at the very least a considerable aspect of how it functions. So in what way is my perspective here specifically flawed?

I was reffering to your idea of society being able to choose whats moral and whats not, as you can see people have different ideas of morals throught history and throughout the world, which is why the world needs a set of guidelines from a more knowledgable source, rather than man made ideas. If you believe in god then obviously you'd know the best source of such guidlines is from divine law because god knows everything, everything that is good for us and everything that is bad for us.

I'm not sure why clarity matters so much. I don't take moral advice from small animistic tribes in Africa. Their moral conduct is often based on survival and superstition. We have moved on past that for a very good reason.

In any case, your premise appears to be an impossibility. You are proposing an unrealistic ideal. That every single human on the entire planet agrees absolutely on what standards we all ought to live by. How exactly can that happen?

Theres no way you can get everyone to agree with morals either from god or from people. The idea is not to please everyone, rather to benefit everyone. Will it hurt anyone to have such a standard? Its kind of like human rights, no govt will claim to disagree with them

And how exactly is religion the only unique foundation for that? We see that a redneck Christian has a specifically different view on morality than a practicing Catholic living in Italy. We can see that a Hindu living in India has also a different moral system than a Cambodian Buddhist, or an Iranian Muslim, or a Israeli Orthodox Jew, or a Russian Orthodox Christian. Many of the affiliations I referenced above also claim to be divine, or represented by the divine. The adherents, as you do claim to be privy to a unique insight of human behaviour and yet we still have this inconsistency. Not only do all the major religions disagree, but they also schism and differentiate further.

Well of course they don't agree with everything, but you can atleast set laws on the things they all agree on, such as most major religions disagreeing with adultery and out of marriage relationships.

I disagree in living under a state where the elect claim to have divine guidance, insight, or divine powers.

So do I, I've never heard of anyone who has, give us some examples please

I know it may seem unrealistic, cause you're ideas are already in place through democratic law etc but it is something that could work

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx

....

The problem with these rules are that things change and a static set of rules cannot keep up with change. The 4 wives thing is one example.

Polygamy is not a problem if there is an imbalance of women to men. But, you are oversimplifying the matter anyhow - we're told in the Qur'an that we can never do complete justice to more than one. The ruling is there for us to recognise an upper limit. It's not obligatory.

If you have a bunch of laws and morals set in stone then you're going to face serious problems. Secular laws have that advantage of dogmatic laws in the bible or quran because they can account for changes in multiculturalism or technological advancements, scientific advancements etc. Like I mentioned in another thread, slavery doesn't work for a capitalist society that is why it was abolished in the U.S civil war: laws changed for the benefit of the society.

See this is the problem you critics have. You honestly think all the sharia laws are set in stone and there is no room for movement? I'll give you some food for thought. CCTV wasn't around during prophet's time. But, it is now and it can be used as a valid form of evidence in a sharia based court for murder/rape etc. The concept of sharia is justice - that's why there's a court proceeding with a judge and not mob mentality.

I've said it before but you are supposed to use your God-given common sense when practicing Islam. When you don't use that, you get stupid cases that all the critics love to whip out.

People have always thought women were different from men. How do you think sexism is justified?

The two sexes ARE different at a biological level. There are no female quarter-backs in the NFL - sexist? No. Female toilets don't have standing urinals - sexist? No Only female humans can give birth - sexist? No. You have to accept these things as differences - that's not to make one inferior or superior, just different. It's when you abuse those sexes because of their differences - that's when it becomes sexism.

And I am no psychologist but I think women get a little upset, as do men, when their partners start sleeping with others. Lol

Of course. That's why adultery is a crime in Islam, punishable by death.

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil

I was reffering to your idea of society being able to choose whats moral and whats not, as you can see people have different ideas of morals throught history and throughout the world, which is why the world needs a set of guidelines from a more knowledgable source

And so how do we measure the 'best' set of guidelines for society to use? I would even go so far as to ask what would these guidelines be for? What would the set objective guidelines set out to achieve? In short, to proclaim that you have some specific insight as to what the objective code of conduct ought to me tells me very little about how you view morality and what you think it is aimed for, and to what end.

rather than man made ideas. If you believe in god then obviously you'd know the best source of such guidlines is from divine law because god knows everything, everything that is good for us and everything that is bad for us.

As above, even if God existed and divine law was morally true you would only know that it is so and not necessarily why so. This is key. Morality is all about behavioural constraints within the context of a community - what you ought to do, or ought not do with absolute consideration of the impact on others. If you cannot identify why people ought to function in specific ways, your claim of insight is in a practical sense meaningless.

Theres no way you can get everyone to agree with morals either from god or from people.

Indeed. Which is why the idea of some hypothetical bsolute moral collective remains just that - hypothetical. It is borderline fantasy in terms of practicality and likelihood of existing.

The idea is not to please everyone, rather to benefit everyone. Will it hurt anyone to have such a standard? Its kind of like human rights, no govt will claim to disagree with them

Some governments whether or not they claim to agree with human rights or not do disagree with them in action. China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, Zimbabwe are all examples of states that act as if human rights exist only some of the time, and when it suits them.

In any case, I'd like to you to elaborate on the part in bold. What exactly do you mean here? I accept that the laws, or at least one of the objectives of the law of any nation should be there to protect every citizen from oppression and corruption and encourage personal liberty and opportunity. This is beneficial to everyone. What does your beneficial ideals include?

Well of course they don't agree with everything, but you can atleast set laws on the things they all agree on, such as most major religions disagreeing with adultery and out of marriage relationships.

Okay.

So? Why should the disagreement of the 'virtuous' impact on the lives of others? Are you implying that religious consensus ought to control or directly influence the lives of others?

So do I, I've never heard of anyone who has, give us some examples please

?!

The Sharia Law ideal claims to be the implementation of divine law. It is the very definition of the state decreeing law from God. Currently, the North Korean state claims their 'dear leader' is something more than human. Adolf Hitler claimed to be divine, or was presented as something greater than human. The Emperor of Japan during their militaristic years in the 20th Century was considered by their own constitution as divine.

The Catholic Church, which declares itself to be run by a representative of God historically controlled the lives of millions across europe and launched/participated in religious genocide and wars in God's name.

How can you not have heard of it?

I know it may seem unrealistic, cause you're ideas are already in place through democratic law etc but it is something that could work

It is not that seems 'unrealistic', but that it would be done at the expense of me. That my own personal liberty would decline in favour of the 'virtuous' doing deeds for God. Why would I accept that? You would not accept living under a Christian fascist state. Same for me with an Islamic flavoured one.

format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab

Polygamy is not a problem if there is an imbalance of women to men. But, you are oversimplifying the matter anyhow - we're told in the Qur'an that we can never do complete justice to more than one. The ruling is there for us to recognise an upper limit. It's not obligatory.


See this is the problem you critics have. You honestly think all the sharia laws are set in stone and there is no room for movement? I'll give you some food for thought. CCTV wasn't around during prophet's time. But, it is now and it can be used as a valid form of evidence in a sharia based court for murder/rape etc. The concept of sharia is justice - that's why there's a court proceeding with a judge and not mob mentality.

I've said it before but you are supposed to use your God-given common sense when practicing Islam. When you don't use that, you get stupid cases that all the critics love to whip out.

Alright so my common sense tells me that women should be asked for their permission before a husband decides to marry another wife. I also think men should not have the right to keep concubines. I am glad my common sense is allowed to override Shariah. I think I'd do a better job anyway ;p

The two sexes ARE different at a biological level. There are no female quarter-backs in the NFL - sexist? No. Female toilets don't have standing urinals - sexist? No Only female humans can give birth - sexist? No. You have to accept these things as differences - that's not to make one inferior or superior, just different. It's when you abuse those sexes because of their differences - that's when it becomes sexism.

Of course they are different. No body said they weren't different. But just because they are different in some respects it does not follow that ANY form of differing treatment should be allowed. I think it IS abuse when a man who has a larger sexual appetite than his wife is allowed to marry 3 more times despite the *obvious* emotional distress that might follow for the first wife. Most people (men & women) do not like when their husbands or wives start sleeping with other people. This is not one of those biological differences so why bring it up? I never claimed that they are exactly the same; I claimed that not wanting their partners cheating on them or having affairs outside of their relationship is a similarity that BOTH man and woman share.

Of course. That's why adultery is a crime in Islam, punishable by death.

A tad inconsistent with concubine permissibility & multiple wife permissibility. But at least it's there.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx

Alright so my common sense tells me that women should be asked for their permission before a husband decides to marry another wife.

Sharia agrees with you

I also think men should not have the right to keep concubines.

Sharia agrees with you (see below)

I am glad my common sense is allowed to override Shariah. I think I'd do a better job anyway ;p

Sorry but Sharia is a lot better than you take it for.

Of course they are different. No body said they weren't different. But just because they are different in some respects it does not follow that ANY form of differing treatment should be allowed. I think it IS abuse when a man who has a larger sexual appetite than his wife is allowed to marry 3 more times despite the *obvious* emotional distress that might follow for the first wife.

That's why the male has to get permission from the first wife. If she says no, then that second marriage is not islamically valid. If it's wife number three, he has to get permission from 1 and 2 etc.

Most people (men & women) do not like when their husbands or wives start sleeping with other people.

There is a difference between adultery and a polygamous marriage.

This is not one of those biological differences so why bring it up? I never claimed that they are exactly the same; I claimed that not wanting their partners cheating on them or having affairs outside of their relationship is a similarity that BOTH man and woman share.

You bought the 4 wives up...I was merely addressing it. And FYI, polygamous marriage does tie in with man's psycholog being different to females. Men have a bigger sexual appetite than females. It's how we roll. I'm not asking you to like it, but that's the way it is. Besides, if you can stomach the concept of crapping or intercourse this really isn't that much of a deal.

A tad inconsistent with concubine permissibility & multiple wife permissibility. But at least it's there.

Concubines were only allowed at a specific point in history. It has since then been classified as haram - impermissable - so the issue is moot.

Multiple husbands? This is why you should study psychology. You know what number 1 thing women look for in a relationship? Stability. Do you know where polyandery (multiple husbands) occur? In crap-economic places. Like tiny villages in the outskirts of 3rd world countries. Where the average income of one man can barely support himself - so a female has to take multiple husbands for stability in the hope that the sum will bring more than the parts. Oh and males outnumber females at a ratio of at least 2:1.

Multiple wives? This occurs in places with a high female to male ratio amd where one man is capable of sustaining multiple wives. Note I said sustaining - this is not the same as doing justice.

Polyandery and polygamy are not ideals, make no mistake. But, on balance, polygamy has more advantages to polyandery.

[QUOTE=aamirsaab;1316829]Sharia agrees with you

Sorry but Sharia is a lot better than you take it for.


That's why the male has to get permission from the first wife. If she says no, then that second marriage is not islamically valid. If it's wife number three, he has to get permission from 1 and 2 etc.

I've never come across a verse in the quran, a hadith in any sound hadith book (or even unsound to be honest), or a legitimate scholar that says what you say. I have read many scholars in different websites in different books that claim that the husband does not need the permission. If you can supply me the evidence for this claim I would love to see it.

There is a difference between adultery and a polygamous marriage.

Possibly.

You bought the 4 wives up...I was merely addressing it

I meant the biological differences. There is no need to bring it up since when it comes to possessiveness, men and women both feel BAD about their spouses running off to sleep with others.

. And FYI, polygamous marriage does tie in with man's psycholog being different to females. Men have a bigger sexual appetite than females. It's how we roll. I'm not asking you to like it, but that's the way it is.

But God made men like that so the more noble thing would be to control their desires and try to not sleep with another woman if it is against the wife's wishes. And your line of reasoning, if it is an attempt to justify this rule, can also be applied to homosexuals...

Besides, if you can stomach the concept of crapping or intercourse this really isn't that much of a deal.

what?

Concubines were only allowed at a specific point in history. It has since then been classified as haram - impermissable - so the issue is moot.

WHAT lol . Did you get this from the same scholar that told you a husband needs to ask his first wife's permission before getting married again? I think you ought to get new ones ;p. Anyway, jokes aside, I THINK a long time ago I recall reading something on how some scholars said this is not permissible. But if you can supply the source that would be great because I have read more scholars saying otherwise because I did a quick search on islamonline.net which I find to be a liberal site and I don't see any support for what you claim.

Multiple husbands? This is why you should study psychology. You know what number 1 thing women look for in a relationship? Stability. Do you know where polyandery (multiple husbands) occur? In crap-economic places. Like tiny villages in the outskirts of 3rd world countries. Where the average income of one man can barely support himself - so a female has to take multiple husbands for stability in the hope that the sum will bring more than the parts. Oh and males outnumber females at a ratio of at least 2:1.

Multiple wives? This occurs in places with a high female to male ratio amd where one man is capable of sustaining multiple wives. Note I said sustaining - this is not the same as doing justice.

I don't get what this has to do with the section you quoted from my post. My point was just a general remark of the irony that Islam outlaws adultery but it sanctions something similar. I cannot see a sufficient difference between having sex with a concubine or a mistress when the wife is against both. Such a strict religion when it comes to sex life but at the same time so liberal.

Polyandery and polygamy are not ideals, make no mistake. But, on balance, polygamy has more advantages to polyandery.

Sure.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx

...
I've never come across a verse in the quran, a hadith in any sound hadith book (or even unsound to be honest), or a legitimate scholar that says what you say. I have read many scholars in different websites in different books that claim that the husband does not need the permission. If you can supply me the evidence for this claim I would love to see it.

My bad, he doesn't need permission from 1st wife. But, common courtesy and the mere fact that the male has to treat both equally tells us such polyganous relationships are going to be minute in number anyway. Out of the 500+ muslims I know (i.e friends and family), not one has a polyganous relationship. Point being even thought is is sanctioned by Islam, doesn't mean people do it.

Maybe I should turn it around: do you know of any muslims that have a second wife?

I meant the biological differences. There is no need to bring it up since when it comes to possessiveness, men and women both feel BAD about their spouses running off to sleep with others.

And if it becomes a problem one can always divorce. It's quite simple really.

But God made men like that so the more noble thing would be to control their desires and try to not sleep with another woman if it is against the wife's wishes.

If she is truly unhappy about the situation, she can file a divorce.

And your line of reasoning, if it is an attempt to justify this rule, can also be applied to homosexuals...

Except for the part where homosexuality is haram in Islam.

WHAT lol . Did you get this from the same scholar that told you a husband needs to ask his first wife's permission before getting married again? I think you ought to get new ones ;p. Anyway, jokes aside, I THINK a long time ago I recall reading something on how some scholars said this is not permissible. But if you can supply the source that would be great because I have read more scholars saying otherwise because I did a quick search on islamonline.net which I find to be a liberal site and I don't see any support for what you claim.

I got confused with muta marriage (I know you critics love waving that around in my virtual face). In any case, concubines were linked with slavery which is now abolished world-wide. There is no issue here.

I don't get what this has to do with the section you quoted from my post. My point was just a general remark of the irony that Islam outlaws adultery but it sanctions something similar. I cannot see a sufficient difference between having sex with a concubine or a mistress when the wife is against both. Such a strict religion when it comes to sex life but at the same time so liberal.

As I said there is a difference between adultery and polygamous (or rather, polyganous) marriage; Concubine ruling no longer applies and any one of the married wives are allowed to divorce the husband if she feels treated unfairly.

So to put it simply: there is no issue here.

format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab

My bad, he doesn't need permission from 1st wife. But, common courtesy and the mere fact that the male has to treat both equally tells us such polyganous relationships are going to be minute in number anyway. Out of the 500+ muslims I know (i.e friends and family), not one has a polyganous relationship. Point being even thought is is sanctioned by Islam, doesn't mean people do it.

Maybe I should turn it around: do you know of any muslims that have a second wife?

This is irrelevant. Even if no Muslims practices this it wouldn't matter because Islam as a system of morality sanctions it. Muslims constantly say 'judge the religion by its religion not by its followers' and this is exactly what I am doing.
And yes, I know Muslims who have/had second wives.

And if it becomes a problem one can always divorce. It's quite simple really.

I don't know why you think divorce is so easy. Divorce is a lengthy process involving multiple factors; having kids adds onto the complications. It is almost never easy to divorce especially in the Islamic world. It's not like a boyfriend and girlfriend dumping each other which is what you are trying to make it out to be.

If she is truly unhappy about the situation, she can file a divorce.

Because not giving them the right to marry against the wife's permission in the first place isn't a more efficient solution for both parties...?

Except for the part where homosexuality is haram in Islam.

In other words, the natural state of a man to want more sex cannot be used a justification.

I got confused with muta marriage (I know you critics love waving that around in my virtual face). In any case, concubines were linked with slavery which is now abolished world-wide. There is no issue here.

Muta is JUST prostitution. But of course this is a Sunni forum so Muta can't be criticized since Sunnis don't believe in it. Yeah, slavery is abolished. But the argument is in principle that it is allowed. Theoretically there can be an Islamic state waging Jihad against some oppressor state and the women captured can still be used as concubines. Not only that, THIS WAS the case during the Prophet's era and subsequent generations.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx

This is irrelevant. Even if no Muslims practices this it wouldn't matter because Islam as a system of morality sanctions it. Muslims constantly say 'judge the religion by its religion not by its followers' and this is exactly what I am doing.
And yes, I know Muslims who have/had second wives.

Yes and I already told you polgyanous marriages have advantages, moral ones no less.

I don't know why you think divorce is so easy. Divorce is a lengthy process involving multiple factors; having kids adds onto the complications. It is almost never easy to divorce especially in the Islamic world. It's not like a boyfriend and girlfriend dumping each other which is what you are trying to make it out to be.

So? The option is there at least.

Besides, getting a second wife isn't exactly easy. That's also a lengthy process, where the husband actually has to prove he can (at the very least) financially support both wives. And the second wife has to agree to the marriage i.e. be told that hubby has another wife and does she agree with this or not.

Because not giving them the right to marry against the wife's permission in the first place isn't a more efficient solution for both parties...?

This is where you need to educate yourself about polgyanous marriages. I already told you it occurs in places where there are more females to males - so it is dependant entirely on the social circumstances and in such cases is a neccessity (because there aren't enough males for all members in that society to have a 1:1 relationship). Besides, the second wife can always say no to the marriage.

In other words, the natural state of a man to want more sex cannot be used a justification.

That's not what I said. There are reasons for homosexuality being haram that I'm not going to get into in this thread (mainly because it's already been done ---> search function)

...But the argument is in principle that it is allowed. Theoretically there can be an Islamic state waging Jihad against some oppressor state and the women captured can still be used as concubines. Not only that, THIS WAS the case during the Prophet's era and subsequent generations.

No, it was allowed because of the social climate at those time. Slavery is abolished in all current islamic states and Islam's ethos on the matter was to free slaves and thus halt slavery altogether (as I have already explained to Hugo in another thread quite recently). So in the event of an Islamic state waging jihad against some oppressor state, any women captured WOULD NOT be used as concubines because slavery no longer exists and thus the rulings on the matter don't either.

If you really want to argue principles and morality, you would be saying Islamic teachings lead to overpopulation via polyganous marriages. There you may have a point. But in all my 5 years on the internetz I have never seen that argument ever raised in a debate by critics/orientalists which leads me to believe you guys don't know jack about Islam and just pick on out-dated and obsolete rulings instead.

format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless

You seem to completely overlook the fact that you're on a forum where the majority are Muslim and so have already accepted the religion because it DOES offer advantages and happiness in every way. Your position should be one which offers evidence for the contrary view; but instead you give us your personal opinion on right/wrong, happiness/unhappiness. None of these things can be confirmed without evidence. You cannot make a statement true by saying "imagine how she'd feel" because that is not how she feels, it is how you think she feels.
That is why atheist dogma fails

Yes, it is up for debate whether women feel unhappy when their husbands marry again against their wills because women are different from men and they don't feel anything remotely similar to the men here who would cringe at the thought that their wives were sleeping with another man. /sarcasm

format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab

Yes and I already told you polgyanous marriages have advantages, moral ones no less.

And I told you how the advantages aren't the only occassions where a polygamous relationship is allowed. It is also allowed for non-moral reasons.

So? The option is there at least.

Lol. right. Islam isn't a practical religion I think.

And the second wife has to agree to the marriage i.e. be told that hubby has another wife and does she agree with this or not.

Great, you forgot about the first wife.

This is where you need to educate yourself about polgyanous marriages. I already told you it occurs in places where there are more females to males - so it is dependant entirely on the social circumstances and in such cases is a neccessity (because there aren't enough males for all members in that society to have a 1:1 relationship). Besides, the second wife can always say no to the marriage.

Again, you forgot about the first wife. Also, you're quite funny. You seem to be saying that it only happens in those places but that is totally untrue. These marriages happen everywhere in all parts of the world; even in the west you find polygamous marriages that are done illegally. Furthermore, you seem to be ignoring the cases where men just marry out of lustful purposes which is the point I am trying to get across.

That's not what I said. There are reasons for homosexuality being haram that I'm not going to get into in this thread (mainly because it's already been done ---> search function)

Okay so I take it that your original statement about men psychologically being given a greater sexual appetite and that I should just accept that God made them like that was a totally irrelevant statement.

No, it was allowed because of the social climate at those time. Slavery is abolished in all current islamic states and Islam's ethos on the matter was to free slaves and thus halt slavery altogether (as I have already explained to Hugo in another thread quite recently). So in the event of an Islamic state waging jihad against some oppressor state, any women captured WOULD NOT be used as concubines because slavery no longer exists and thus the rulings on the matter don't either.

If you really want to argue principles and morality, you would be saying Islamic teachings lead to overpopulation via polyganous marriages. There you may have a point. But in all my 5 years on the internetz I have never seen that argument ever raised in a debate by critics/orientalist

So, you are telling me that if a new Islamic state was established with a caliph, and if he wanted to take some slaves, he would be forbidden to do so? Yes Islam encourages freeing the slaves but it does not prohibit taking slaves altogether. If an Islamic state were to arise and the caliph wanted slave girl concubines and followed the guidelines set out by the Quran and Sunnah on how to get concubines, the most a scholar could do is remind the caliph that he ought to be freeing slaves but he cannot declare the caliph to be sinning since it appears to be a recommended act to end slavery but NOT mandatory. Anyway, even if it wasn't allowed now for whatever reason...it does not make all the concubine relationships throughout the centuries after the advent of Islam any less ridiculously immoral. Face it pal, women get the short end of the stick when it comes to pretty much every religion ever. Not surprising though since men run the religious institutions and the POV of the Quran is, to me anyway, the POV of a man. But I do think Muhammad was ahead of his time and made women's rights better.