The fall of Lucifer

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

Hello,

I have a question and problem regarding to the fall of Lucifer -- or Satan /
Dajjal / Iblis as you call him. But just let me call him Lucifer.

Well, the Quran says that Lucifer was created out of smokeless fire and
God gave him free will like to the Jinns, but not the other angels.

Then God created Adam. God introduced his creation to the angels, and
told them to prostrate, the angels did so, but not Lucifer. He claimed that
he won't prostrate a creation that was created out of clay, and he was
created out of fire.

Then God made a place for Lucifer where he can do anything he wants,
and only he has power over it -- we call that hell.

Then Lucifer was sent away to his place by God, together with other
angels who joined him.

My problem and question is that: How could other angels join Lucifer,
weren't they created without free will? If they were created without
free will, they wouldn't be able to do whether they wanted to, wouldn't
they?

I'm looking forward to hearing from you,
SeekingJoy

Hello

First off the Dajjal is the bible's equivelent of the antichrist not satan.

Second we're not aware of satan having control over Hell, I don't think he has control over anything except his followers

Third when satan was a good boy he was like the head of all jinn, so he was quite powerful, it was probably his pride that caused him to disobey God. Since other jinn were not of his rank its unlikely they will have had pride issues and hence followed his path. We don't know a lot about this and can only speculate.

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

Okay, then Dajjal is the anti-Christ -- I go it.

So the demons in hell are Jinns? Or there's nothing in hell except Lucifer?

Not sure

Theres good and bad jinns just like humans

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

Hello,

I have a question and problem regarding to the fall of Lucifer -- or Satan /
Dajjal / Iblis as you call him. But just let me call him Lucifer.

Well, the Quran says that Lucifer was created out of smokeless fire and
God gave him free will like to the Jinns, but not the other angels.

Then God created Adam. God introduced his creation to the angels, and
told them to prostrate, the angels did so, but not Lucifer. He claimed that
he won't prostrate a creation that was created out of clay, and he was
created out of fire.

Then God made a place for Lucifer where he can do anything he wants,
and only he has power over it -- we call that hell.

Then Lucifer was sent away to his place by God, together with other
angels who joined him.

My problem and question is that: How could other angels join Lucifer,
weren't they created without free will? If they were created without
free will, they wouldn't be able to do whether they wanted to, wouldn't
they?

I'm looking forward to hearing from you,
SeekingJoy

Seekingjoy, I have read your story about abandoning religions.

After reading this post, I strongly believe you do not know hardly anything about Islam, not even the basics. You yourself - after even experiencing materialism - to its highest limit, are not a happy person with satanism, and this is why you've come here to this site to get answers.


Due to that, I am going to provide you with some articles linking you to basic info about this topic you've just asked about:


The Origins of Adam and Satan:
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1193/

Are we alone? Who is satan?
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/4186/


Maybe after reading them you can ask more questions. But right now, the first stage for you is to learn and understand, and ask.



Peace.

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

I read them and didn't find anything new, just the old things I learned before.

actually it does have info that you seem to have passed by, The Quran doesn't tell us that the angels followed him, you are confusing your info with christian sources, we are told that All of the angels prostrated, Satan/diabolis/iblis/devil is not a fallen angel but a Jinn, a spirit with freewill like Adam.
Iblis was the special celebrity before Adam came on the scene so he was jealous, a bit like racist pride sort of.

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

My problem and question is that: How could other angels join Lucifer,
weren't they created without free will? If they were created without
free will, they wouldn't be able to do whether they wanted to, wouldn't

they?

The Angels prostrated themselves all of them together. Except Satan....

Quran 15:30

Seeking joy,
when one pursues knowledge one doesn't come with pre-conceived ideologies and challenges those questioned on what should be very common knowledge to them. It shows dishonesty and is a waste of everyone's time..

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

I read them and didn't find anything new, just the old things I learned before.

You pose questions, you answer them yourself, and you're unhappy when corrected.. are we to be faulted for losing interest in replying?

best,

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

Hello,


Well, the Quran says that Lucifer was created out of smokeless fire and
God gave him free will like to the Jinns, but not the other angels.

Jinn and angels are separate creations, therein is your first error!
'fallen angels' is a christian concept not an Islamic one.

Then God created Adam. God introduced his creation to the angels, and
told them to prostrate, the angels did so, but not Lucifer. He claimed that
he won't prostrate a creation that was created out of clay, and he was
created out of fire.

claim?

Then God made a place for Lucifer where he can do anything he wants,
and only he has power over it -- we call that hell.

God did no such thing:

Inna AAibadee laysa laka AAalayhim sultanun illa mani ittabaAAaka mina alghaweena

15:42 "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."

---

An-Nahl (The Bee) [16:99] [RECITE]

[top] [next match]

Innahu laysa lahu sultanun AAala allatheena amanoo waAAala rabbihim yatawakkaloona

16:99 No authority has he over those who believe and put their trust in their Lord.

'Lucifer/Satan' has no authority save for those who seek him as an authority!

Then Lucifer was sent away to his place by God, together with other
angels who joined him.

ha? Where did you come up with this?

Sahih International
[ Allah ] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."

7:13 to top

Sahih International
[ Allah ] said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased.

7:14 to top

Sahih International
[Satan] said, "Reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected."

7:15 to top

Sahih International
[ Allah ] said, "Indeed, you are of those reprieved."

7:16 to top

Sahih International
[Satan] said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.

7:17 to top

Sahih International
Then I will come to them from before them and from behind them and on their right and on their left, and You will not find most of them grateful [to You]."

7:18 to top

Sahih International
[ Allah ] said, "Get out of Paradise, reproached and expelled. Whoever follows you among them - I will surely fill Hell with you, all together."

7:19 to top

so I am not sure which 'angels' you're speaking of, Again, they're a separate creation .. you need a paradigm shift and I think your problem would have been easily remedied if you'd indeed read like you claimed.

My problem and question is that: How could other angels join Lucifer,

Again, not sure where you got this from? Do you mind quoting directly from the Quran or ahadiths?

weren't they created without free will? If they were created without
free will, they wouldn't be able to do whether they wanted to, wouldn't
they?

Angels have no free will you're correct in that regard. Lucifier/ jinns (there are many different types of jinns, and there's a thread on them as well a chapter in the Quran, and humans do have free will!

I'm looking forward to hearing from you,

Well now that you've heard and were directly quoted from the Quran are you still confused?

SeekingJoy

best,

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

Well, the Quran says that Lucifer was created out of smokeless fire

al Qur'an does not say Lucifer was created out of smokeless fire.

In fact, AL qur'an never mention even the word "lucifer"

It seems you got your info about Islam from anti-Islamic sites which are full of lies.

here's a more clear verse:



18:50 Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord.
Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me when they are enemies to you?
Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
Quran 18:50

No offence but did u even read the link the other member posted? Satan was made from fire( Jinn not angel) and he refused to bow to Adam to Allah cast him out. Thats the gest of the sorry but I think other members have posted the story from the Quran. Maybe do alittle more each research next time. I dunno maybe listen alittle more.

Mind showing us those 'Hahahahahaha' as well as 'ignorant idiot'
As for what you perceive to be respectful or not well I personally find it disrespectful when one rants on telling his hosts whom he's seeking clarifications from what they believe and not accepting any form of evidence to the contrary in fact adds further insult to injury by feigning having read and dismissing it all as one in the same when clearly everyone has proven otherwise.
Exactly what kind of reception were you hoping for?

Best,

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

Thanks to everyone.

Why weren't you tolerant and respectful a bit more? I asked a few simply
question and you come up like "HAHAHAHA WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING
ABOUT??? HAHAHAHA HE'S SO FUNNY!" and the other side of you "HE'S AN
IGNORATANT IDIOT!". Why are you like that?

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

Why weren't you tolerant and respectful a bit more?

Unless you created your won definitions of the words "tolerant" and respectful, I think everyone with basic intelligence and honesty would agree that we have been very tolerant and respectful with you in this thread.

even when you came here with false information about Islamic facts (for example: lucifers, satans are fallen angels etc) we in kind manner showed you the correct information, which you either did not acknowledge or dismissed them altogether as "old things you learned before", which begs the question: If you had known them, then why did you choose to present the untruth about Islam?

To the OP...

Forget opinions of members and leave all butt hurt aside for a sec. Let's answer your question with an authoritative source... yes?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3029763/Stories-of-the-Prophets-Ibn-Kathir

Download it, and read the first chapter, the chapter on the Prophet Adams (pbuh)creation, and what happened in heaven when Allah breathed life into him.

That's all for now.

Scimi

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

Hello,

I have a question and problem regarding to the fall of Lucifer -- or Satan /
Dajjal / Iblis as you call him. But just let me call him Lucifer.

Fine by me... but you do know that the name Lucifer means The Light Bearer, right? So really, it doesn't suit him all that much

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

Well, the Quran says that Lucifer was created out of smokeless fire and
God gave him free will like to the Jinns, but not the other angels.

Yes, this is correct. Iblis, Shaytan, or Lucifer as you like to call him, was a Jinn who was elevated to the highest degree for his kind, and was made leader of the angels even... the reason for this is because his innate desire was to worship Allah and gain HIS favour...

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

Then God created Adam. God introduced his creation to the angels, and
told them to prostrate, the angels did so, but not Lucifer. He claimed that
he won't prostrate a creation that was created out of clay, and he was
created out of fire.

Yes, pompous sod he is eh? So full of himself... and the cheek? I mean, there he was, standing before GOD ALMIGHTY and this wretched ego-maniac called Lucifer, refused to bow on GOD's command... shot himself in the foot there. Bad move.

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

Then God made a place for Lucifer where he can do anything he wants,
and only he has power over it -- we call that hell.

Actually, no. That place is earth. GOD gave Lucifer respite until the day of judgement (meaning, he is free to try and lead the children of Adam astray, on earth)... and Lucifer was told that his eternal resting place is the fire - where he will burn forever. And though Lucifer is made of fire, this doesn't mean he will find it comfy. No. Lucifer will suffer the most in the hellfire.

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

Then Lucifer was sent away to his place by God, together with other
angels who joined him.

Nope... where does it say this in Islamic sources? I have never come across this pseudo Greco-Roman Christian idea in Islamic sources... I call it pseudo, because these ideas were first propagated by the followers the Zoroastrian religion, and these stories, well, they draw parallels with modern Christianity... notice, I mention the word "modern" and not "classic" or "orthodox" Christianity...

format_quote Originally Posted by SeekingJoy

My problem and question is that: How could other angels join Lucifer,
weren't they created without free will? If they were created without
free will, they wouldn't be able to do whether they wanted to, wouldn't
they?

I'm looking forward to hearing from you,
SeekingJoy

Yep, you are right. The Angels have no will of their own. They only take pleasure from the act of worship they were created for... Anyway, No angels went to hell with Lucifer.... But I know that when it is his time to enter the hellfire, he will be dragged there against his (free) will by some very VERY powerful angels...

I hope you get a chance to save the PDF I linked you to above, and give it a good ole read buddy.

Well, I guess that's it, right?

Scimi