An Atheist is asking me why does Allah order to kill apostates. So I showed him the video of zakir naik where he explains that it is not an islamic law to kill the apostates. then he quoted a verse from surah nisa. Verse 4:89 (Surat An-Nisa) in the Q'ran seems to say that you should kill people when they leave the faith.
So, in response to that I said, Back in the time of the Prophet (pbuh) there were some people who just pretended to be Muslims to be able to blend in with the true Muslims so that it is easier for them to plot a trap for the true Muslims to cause harm to them. So they acted like true believers when they are with the believers and as soon as they were successful in their evil mission, they left Islam. That's why it was ordered to kill such hypocrites.
then he replied, So you're saying that the word of Allah in the Q'ran must not always be followed? How can you possibly know what to follow and what not to follow? Surely he should have ordered you to kill people who were pretending to be muslims rather than kill anyone who left the faith? I thought that's what you were saying, it says in the Q'ran quite clearly that people who leave the Islamic faith must be killed, I pointed you to the passage where it says that.To disobey this is to disobey Allah, right?
So I told him to read my post again, then he replied, You said that back in time there were people who were pretending to be true Muslims, but they were not. It would make sense then if Allah ordered pretend Muslims to be killed, although this is still murder, and in my eyes wrong (I trust you agree with Allah, and think murder can be justified?), rather than to order anyone who left Islam to be killed. It seems pretty clear to me that it's saying that anyone who leaves the faith must die, and even if he isn't, that he isn't in favour of peace.
btw on a personal note (you should read the link provided)
are we trying to water down Islam?
That's the accepted punishment.
In the Bible
The first recorded reference to apostasy from Judaism is in Deuteronomy 13:6-11, which states:
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."[4]
Furthermore that is also the accepted punishment under secularism for treason:
When you have an Islamic state or the non-existent Jewish state and you betray it directly then the punishment prescribed is death!
We're not going to tailor Islam to kaffir beliefs because they think that criminality should go rewarded yet victims should forgive!
Somewhere in the Quran it says not to argue about religion with ignorant people..... Yes be knowledgeable and able to educate someone who asks you a question, but don't get into heated conversation. I don't bring up religion to my friends (All but 2 are Christians) because I know not to.
If the atheist cites 4:89, he's either ignorant or intentionally dishonest. The next verse, 4:90, makes it absolutely unambiguous that apostasy warrants death only if the apostate joins a faction at war with the Islamic community.
To the original poster, I think first of all this highlights the need for us to be careful in saying anything about Islam which might not be true. This is very easy to fall into when getting into such discussions. We have to try and research these issues and understand the Islamic stance on them properly before explaining them to others.
Secondly, getting into such discussions is often a waste of time, as disappointing as it may sound. If the person is a sincere seeker of truth, this is often apparent and you can focus on the concept of Tawheed. If they are not willing to accept anything you say, and it's clear you are not getting anywhere, it's best to end the discussion and focus on something more beneficial.
Regarding the issue of apostasy, there are some good articles about this which you may find in the thread the sister linked to above. Ultimately, he probably won't agree that anyone under any circumstances should be killed, even though there are other laws besides Islam that apply the death penalty. Well we are following the guidance given to us by Allaah (swt), which is the best guidance and we believe there is wisdom and goodness in it regardless of whether people see it or not. This is born out of the fact that we as Muslims by definition have submitted to Allaah (swt).
Im no exegist but If you read the verse before and following the one you quoted I dont think its stressing on killing apostates at all. I think it seems to be talking about the certain group of jews who were secretly planning to murder Muhammad and take control of Medina. Although the jews embraced Muhammad at the beginning as he could unite the jews of Medina and act as an arbiter to settle disputes amongst them, later on a few became jealous of Muhammad because of his power and decided to ignore the contract.
The first time this happened, Muhammad forgave them on the condition that they leave; the second time it happened he didnt excuse the punishment by death.
Someone please correct me (and quote me) if ive said anything wrong.
Im no exegist but If you read the verse before and following the one you quoted I dont think its stressing on killing apostates at all. I think it seems to be talking about the certain group of jews who were secretly planning to murder Muhammad and take control of Medina. Although the jews embraced Muhammad at the beginning as he could unite the jews of Medina and act as an arbiter to settle disputes amongst them, later on a few became jealous of Muhammad because of his power and decided to ignore the contract.
The first time this happened, Muhammad forgave them on the condition that they leave; the second time it happened he didnt excuse the punishment by death.
Someone please correct me (and quote me) if ive said anything wrong.
yes that is what I have heard also and this is exactly what i was trying to explain to the atheist.
At first I thought the athiest is really looking for answers but now it seems he just want to mock Islam. Almost every kafir comes up with this issue of killing apostates in Islam. Thats why, I thought I should answer this. I better not reply to the ignorant anymore.
no I am not trying to mock islam by any means. I will let anyone and everyone respect their religion and you can do whatever you want. But is society better today because of religion? no it isn't.
I am in favor of peace iluvallah. But as I said the wars that take place in the middle east is based purely on religion and wouldn't likely be anywhere as near as catastrophic had it not been for religion. Now I am not saying everything in the middle east is wrong, but any war that needs to be started based on religion and not common sense and logic seems absolutely absurd to me. It is my opinion that is all I respect what everyone else says also. This is just a discussion thread.
Somewhere in the Quran it says not to argue about religion with ignorant people..... Yes be knowledgeable and able to educate someone who asks you a question, but don't get into heated conversation. I don't bring up religion to my friends (All but 2 are Christians) because I know not to.
Crimson tide I am ignorant? I could make a very strong case that you are the one who is ignorant.
it is wrong to call someone ignorant when I am expressing my views and you are expressing yours. Maybe we can learn from each other? But to call me ignorant is being ignorant yourself.
Allah criticizes the believers for disagreeing over the hypocrites. There are conflicting opinions over the reason behind revealing this Ayah. Imam Ahmad recorded that Zayd bin Thabit said that Messenger of Allah marched towards Uhud. However, some people who accompanied him went back to Al-Madinah, and the Companions of the Messenger of Allah divided into two groups concerning them, one saying they should be killed and the other objecting. Allah sent down,
(Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites) The Messenger of Allah said,
(She (Al-Madinah) is Taybah, and she expels filth, just as the billow expels rust from iron.) The Two Sahihs also recorded this Hadith. Al-`Awfi reported that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah was revealed about some people in Makkah who said they embraced Islam, yet they gave their support to the idolators. One time, theses people went out of Makkah to fulfill some needs and said to each other, "If we meet the Companions of Muhammad, there will be no harm for us from their side.'' When the believers got news that these people went out of Makkah, some of them said, "Let us march to these cowards and kill them, because they support your enemy against you.'' However, another group from the believers said, "Glory be to Allah! Do you kill a people who say as you have said, just because they did not perform Hijrah or leave their land Is it allowed to shed their blood and confiscate their money in this case'' So they divided to two groups, while the Messenger was with them, and did not prohibit either group from reiterating their argument. Thereafter, Allah revealed,
They wish that you reject faith, as they have rejected, and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Awliya' from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah. But if they turn back, take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Awliya' nor helpers from them.) (90. Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So, if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has made no way for you against them. 91. You will find others that wish to have security from you and security from their people. Every time they are sent back to Fitnah, they yield thereto. If they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace, nor restrain their hands, take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you Thaqiftumuhum. In their case, We have provided you with a clear warrant against them.) (surah nisa verse 89-91)
it is wrong to call someone ignorant when I am expressing my views and you are expressing yours. Maybe we can learn from each other? But to call me ignorant is being ignorant yourself.
oh you are that guy from youtube? haha, good to see you here I'm happy to know your intention is not mocking the religion. Sorry for misunderstanding.
no I am not any guy from youtube just a random person who stumbled upon this site after reading the "inspire" magazine online which I found to be astonishing. You know I don't care what religion a human being believes in as long as peace can be achieved across the humanitarian globe and let people believe or not believe in what they want to believe and coexist with each other in peace is what I hope can happen across the earth and these unprovoked "terrorist" attacks on innocent civilians need to be stopped. My friend died in the Mumbai shootings in the Taj by muslim extremists. She was as innocent as can be who never harmed a human being and lived as "sin-free" a life as one could.
no I am not any guy from youtube just a random person who stumbled upon this site after reading the "inspire" magazine online which I found to be astonishing. You know I don't care what religion a human being believes in as long as peace can be achieved across the humanitarian globe and let people believe or not believe in what they want to believe and coexist with each other in peace is what I hope can happen across the earth and these unprovoked "terrorist" attacks on innocent civilians need to be stopped. My friend died in the Mumbai shootings in the Taj by muslim extremists. She was as innocent as can be who never harmed a human being and lived as "sin-free" a life as one could.
Alhamdulilaah, we have some understanding.
I am sorry to hear about your friend, but please let's not blame islaam nor all muslims for what these extremists did or are still doing, their are good and bad in every society. I am a muslim, and condemn such acts, and so do many on board and muslims around the world.
Last edited by Ğħαrєєвαħ; 04-22-2012 at 09:47 PM.
"Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]
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tango92 liked this post
I'm happy to know your intention is not mocking the religion. Sorry for misunderstanding.
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