I am just wanting to know if free speech exists in Islam? I think No because of the stories I hear in the media about muslims wanting to censor certain things that they find offensive.
If it doesn't exist then how can people in Islam ever discuss and debate new ideas and move on if they can't say whatever they want whenever they want?
Free speech is an evil thing. It should be curbed.
Help me to escape from this existence
I yearn for an answer... can you help me?
I'm drowning in a sea of abused visions and shattered dreams
In somnolent illusion... I'm paralyzed
You should be very happy. For billions of people around the world, it already is.
no one is free. I also consider you to be enslaved in the shackles of your perception.
Help me to escape from this existence
I yearn for an answer... can you help me?
I'm drowning in a sea of abused visions and shattered dreams
In somnolent illusion... I'm paralyzed
Free speech is an evil thing. It should be curbed.
Imagine living in a country or society where saying "Free speech is an evil thing" will get you executed. Can you imagine that?
For me it is very important that I can voice my opinion and so can everybody else. Where if a person comes along and says: "Free speech is an evil thing", this results in a conversation about this and not a court trial, censorship or beheading.
If you want to live in a society where everything you say will be judged then so be it, but don't expect others to like it or to agree with you.
If you say free speech should be curbed, by how much exactly should it be curbed? Who decides by how much and what is tolerated. Will you get prosecuted if you say: stupid weather, because it is an insult?
I myself would just rather ban you from this forum than argue with you stops, but these moderators and other forumers are more generous it seems with their answers, time, patience to debate with you and answer you in a generally polite and patiently educative manner. As for me, having read your posts in this thread I believe your speech should be banned because you are here to argue it seems not learn or reason.
I don't think the weather would be insulted as it is not capable of making a case against that.
Can someone like Plato?
We already live in a society like this.
I don't know about you, but I can go and stand on a box or a ladder and say pretty much anything I want. Nobody but my peers provides feedback. Oral feedback. Not by beheading me, but talking to me.
I myself would just rather ban you from this forum than argue with you stops, but these moderators and other forumers are more generous it seems with their answers, time, patience to debate with you and answer you in a generally polite and patiently educative manner. As for me, having read your posts in this thread I believe your speech should be banned because you are here to argue it seems not learn or reason.
Why does it seem to me that I don't argue, but avoid and ignore people who do?
I read what people here write and I learn what they think by looking at their opinions. Yes, if I see something wrong or gravely out of shape I can't help and provide my view. That's what people do on forums.
You want to ban me and yet don't provide a reason why you would rather ban me. I provide factual, yet polite feedback. Not everybody here does this. Would you ban them too?
Would you ban everyone who has a different opinion than you?
Do you appreciate free speech and are you in favour of free speech?
Or are you like some Christians, who say: yes, free speech is ok, but not on 25th of December when it comes to XMas?
Another thing: I value free speech and I am a happy person who likes to have fun, so I don't always take myself seriously. Maybe it's a bad combination but it usually works. So why not lighten up and talk with a smile instead of a frown?
I don't know about you, but I can go and stand on a box or a ladder and say pretty much anything I want. Nobody but my peers provides feedback. Oral feedback. Not by beheading me, but talking to me.
We challenge you to let go of your safety ladder and go ''say pretty much anything you want'' to Obama and survive his secret service. Until such a time I don't think anyone is interested in psycho-babble.. Everyone spews psychobabble indeed (and that amongst other forum rules you break are enough incentive for you to be banned).. at any rate put your money where your mouth is and make it count!
I don't know about you, but I can go and stand on a box or a ladder and say pretty much anything I want. Nobody but my peers provides feedback. Oral feedback. Not by beheading me, but talking to me.
Yeah. Most of us can do that too right now without being beheaded.
It seems to me that the idea of freedom of speech has been abused like when a parent gives a son some money and say "buy whatever you want and have a good time", and the son goes and buys drugs because the parent said "anything".
It's clear that what is lost is adab. Something those of the past had and understood without having to actually say it out or put in writing. When you are at someone's house and the host tells you to "make yourself at home", it doesn't mean you can do whatever you want it just means he wants you to be comfortable within proper limits as a guest.
With freedom of speech, is it not meant for people to be able to have proper discourse? To seek truth, knowledge, etc. To say that what is offensive in one place might not be offensive in another. That is true for many things, like certain table etiquettes or hand gestures but these things are not the same as mocking or insulting, especially in the verbal/physical sense.
Only idiots would actually think that it is impossible to figure out what could/would be transgressing "free speech".
Actually, no. I have had posts edited and deleted at whim. I am polite and try to be honest and correct. Yes, I makje mistakes, but I learn from them.
every good forum has their own rules. And yes, even atheist/democracy/western/etc forums all have rules. And if you break them, there are consequences.
Also, I am not sure if you try to be honest and correct. You made one little post and there were so many incorrect opinions in there.
Unless you were that ignorant.
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Ooops, I forgot to specify: "free country". Yes, that was my mistake.
Right.
So it is "un-free countries" that shut down twitter/facebook/google/youtube, and not because they are "muslim majority countries'.
I really hope for your own sake that you know the distinction.
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Well, if you would ask instead of displaying an arrogant stance
This comes from someone who come here and wrote a sentence painting lies and brushing off all muslim countries as the same?
If you don't like people correcting your mistakes, then next time be careful about what you are going to write.
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
And denying the holocaust or any genocide is way above the limit.
and insulting muslims, painting lies against Islam and muslims is not way above the limit?
sounds more like "selective freedom of speech" to me.
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
It has nothing to do with censorship. Deleting one of posts because "There are a number of things which aren't correct in the post." is not exactly informative and useful to learn something.
You made one little post and I have corrected your mistakes. I hope you learnt something.
BUT, judging by the way you have written so far, I am sure "learning something" is the furthest thing from your mind.
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
But it is true, it looks as though people here are too aggressive for me to learn anything. But I suppose I will be told it is all my fault because that's what people do: look for faults in others.
When people corrected you, you proclaimed they were aggressive for you to learn anything, but you are asking for exemption to say anything you like to say?
Nice try for putting guilt on others. But thankfully, we are not 5-year olds here (although we dealt with 5 year olds time to time).
I don't know about you, but I can go and stand on a box or a ladder and say pretty much anything I want. Nobody but my peers provides feedback. Oral feedback. Not by beheading me, but talking to me.
I don't know where you live, but most certainly not in the USA.
In USA ("the land of the brave and the free"), countless people have been jailed (without trial) and tortured just because they have different ideas than their government.
And most certainly not in Germany either where denying holocaust lands you in jail, and which have provided facilities for other foreign governments to conduct torture for those being held without trial.
every good forum has their own rules. And yes, even atheist/democracy/western/etc forums all have rules. And if you break them, there are consequences.
Also, I am not sure if you try to be honest and correct. You made one little post and there were so many incorrect opinions in there.
Unless you were that ignorant.
I did not see a rule anywhere: do not criticise wrong information.
What exactly is an incorrect opinion? Do YOU decide what is the correct opinion for me?
And again: are you sure you know what ignorant means?
Right.
So it is "un-free countries" that shut down twitter/facebook/google/youtube, and not because they are "muslim majority countries'.
I really hope for your own sake that you know the distinction.
Is Pakistan shutting down and blocking YouTube in any way comparable to YouTube deleting videos inciting genocide? You seem to have strange standards.
This comes from someone who come here and wrote a sentence painting lies and brushing off all muslim countries as the same?
If you don't like people correcting your mistakes, then next time be careful about what you are going to write.
Accusations, claims and insults. Is that all you can come up with? Very poor!
and insulting muslims, painting lies against Islam and muslims is not way above the limit?
sounds more like "selective freedom of speech" to me.
Well, I have already questioned your ability of accurate judgement.
You made one little post and I have corrected your mistakes. I hope you learnt something.
BUT, judging by the way you have written so far, I am sure "learning something" is the furthest thing from your mind.
I hate to burst your bubble, but as far as I recall you corrected no mistake. You just gleefully pointed out a mistake I made. I then corrected it. What you mean - but did not apply - is constructive criticism.
Yes, you have the ability to be sure of my personality and character from just "one little post".
[QUOTE] When people corrected you, you proclaimed they were aggressive for you to learn anything, but you are asking for exemption to say anything you like to say?
Nice try for putting guilt on others. But thankfully, we are not 5-year olds here (although we dealt with 5 year olds time to time).[/QUOTE]
Do you have a problem understanding what I am writing? So far you have managed to misrepresent and pass unwarranted, judgemental comments and make condescending remarks.
Look at the following: here's what I said: it looks as though people here are too aggressive for me to learn anything
"It looks as though" is not the same as "proclaiming", I think you will agree with me here.
The same goes for the sentence: "When people corrected you"
Who corrected me? Who showed me what was wrong and what the correct information would be?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, some people really basic communication skills and are incredibly quick to condemn others instead of following the Koran and establishing a path of communication without threats and insults.
Now, is it possible to stop all this bickering and name-calling and focus on factual arguments regarding free speech?
Only idiots would actually think that it is impossible to figure out what could/would be transgressing "free speech".
In specific cases maybe. In a general law it opens doors. It can be misused and probably will sooner or later. History has proven time and again.
It should also be possible to vote for one dictator every few years. Totalitarianism is way more efficient than a democracy. Yet it would be so easy for dictator to abuse his powers once in power and no matter what he said during election. So we separate legislative power from execution and justice.
The risks outweigh the benefits.
It can be condemned by the population but not every cultural agreement needs to be put into a law. There is no law for shaking hands. There is no law for how often you are allowed to forget your marriage anniversary. There is no law for treating or mistreating a girlfriend unless there is physical harm.
All these things are taken care of by people via giving the silent treatment, ignoring, exclusion from events or groups, being less helpful, ...
There are many such things in social environments.
What exactly is an incorrect opinion? Do YOU decide what is the correct opinion for me?
Every adult being knows that incorrect opinions are opinions that are not based on the fact.
For example: "Germany is a country in Africa".
Can I ask you how old are you?
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Is Pakistan shutting down and blocking YouTube in any way comparable to YouTube deleting videos inciting genocide? You seem to have strange standards
Pakistan may have blocked access to Youtube. So? What is your point?
Many countries have blocked access to youtube, not just muslim majority countries.
You seem to have double standards.
Youtube deleting videos inciting genocide?
You equate denying holocaust to "inciting genocide"? Your government certainly have successfully brainwashed germany's citizens to the point that having different opinion about holocaust is now equal to "inciting genocide"
do you even know what "inciting genocide" means?
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Accusations, claims and insults. Is that all you can come up with? Very poor!
You need a mirror.
You come here accusing and claiming that only muslim countries blocked access to youtube/facebook/etc, and when we refuted you, you are now claiming that we are insulting you.
You have done very poor job in trying to put the guilt on us. Again, we are not 5 year-olds, but we deal with 5 year-olds time to time.
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Well, I have already questioned your ability of accurate judgement.
I feel proud that someone who claimed that "only muslim countries blocked access to youtube/facebook" is now questioning my judgement.
next.
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
I hate to burst your bubble, but as far as I recall you corrected no mistake. You just gleefully pointed out a mistake I made. I then corrected it. What you mean - but did not apply - is constructive criticism.
I did correct your mistake by refuting your argument.
"constructive criticism"? This is coming from someone who come here and claiming only muslim countries blocked access to youtube etc?
nice try, kiddo.
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Look at the following: here's what I said: it looks as though people here are too aggressive for me to learn anything
If you don't like people here refuting your claims and arguments, no one is holding you hostage.
format_quote Originally Posted by StopS
Now, is it possible to stop all this bickering and name-calling and focus on factual arguments regarding free speech?
Why don't you start?
So far, you have claimed falsely against muslim countries and you have provided no facts to your arguments.
By the way, I have refuted your claim that you can pretty much have any opinion in Germany without dire consequences from your own government.
You seem to be the expert: show me the rule which says: do not criticise wrong information.
Every adult being knows that incorrect opinions are opinions that are not based on the fact.
You are incapable of distinguishing fact from opinion. If you don't understand something, just ask and I will be happy to explain it to you.
You come here accusing and claiming that only muslim countries blocked access to youtube/facebook/etc, and when we refuted you, you are now claiming that we are insulting you.
You have done very poor job in trying to put the guilt on us. Again, we are not 5 year-olds, but we deal with 5 year-olds time to time.
I admitted that I have made a mistake. I forgot one word. It was my mistake. My error. Mea culpa.
Can you provide a list of countries where internet access is partially blocked?
I have not been to North Korea, but the ones I have been to and which are blocking internet access partially are: China, Afghanistan, UAE, KSA, Qatar, Iran, Pakistan, Oman. Notice a pattern?
I did correct your mistake by refuting your argument.
"constructive criticism"? This is coming from someone who come here and claiming only muslim countries blocked access to youtube etc?
So far, you have claimed falsely against muslim countries and you have provided no facts to your arguments.
By the way, I have refuted your claim that you can pretty much have any opinion in Germany without dire consequences from your own government.
You made a claim, without any evidence. I said "pretty much" for a reason.
I am really getting tired of all this nonsensical chest-thumping.
Ok, yes, you are a hero and the best! I am totally wrong and no matter what I say will convince anyone anyway.
No level of rational thinking or reasoning will change anyone's mind here. I don't even remember whether it was this forum which has worn me out and I already said: I give up!
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