Diverse Problems for Islam

**Traditio** · 01-11-2015

Hello! I am a new poster here. I am a Ph.D. student in philosophy, and I tend to spend most of my time with medieval Christian and ancient Greek philosophy. I only have a superficial knowledge of Islam (though I have read Avicenna's Metaphysics of the Healing), and I was hoping that you guys could provide an Islamic perspective on certain problems that I raise. So, I'll give you what I think are very potent proofs for Islam's falsity, and I am hoping that you, if you are able, will be able to show me why these proofs don't work.

1. From what I understand, you guys believe that angels have bodies made of light, and that these things called "djinn" have bodies made of fire. But they're invisible. Fire and light are per se (essentially) visible. Isn't it a flat out contradiction to believe in invisible fire people?

2. Granted that it's not a contradiction to believe in invisible fire people, I have a further question about their bodies. I am assuming that, since they have bodies, they are therefore animals (body-soul composites). Are their bodies complex (made up of a diversity of organs), or are they relatively simple (for example, in the sense that a camp-fire is relatively simple...that is, not made up of individual "parts," so to speak, but is just one fire)? If they are complex, then how on earth does that work? What would it mean to have an eye or an ear made of light or fire? If their bodies are simple, then how are they able to see, hear, etc? The senses require complex bodily organs. If they don't sense, then what's the point of their having bodies?

3. From what I understand, you guys believe that martyrs enjoy bliss in a bodily paradise, where they shall indulge their carnal appetites for food, drink and sexual intercourse...without their bodies? How do you suppose that is supposed to work? Avicenna's answer is that good philosophers bypass these carnal delights altogether and partake of intelligible delights, whereas the ordinary, run of the mill Muslims who, nonetheless, lived good lives will enjoy these carnal delights...by imagining them. But this is, of course, false. Imagination requires bodily organs, and your martyrs are not currently united to their bodies. We can be quite sure of this. If you doubt this, go and check. I assure you, their bodies are still in (or on) the ground and, even if intact, are quite lifeless. So, in short, how are your martyrs supposed to eat the heavenly super fruit when they have neither mouth, tongue, throat nor stomach? How are they supposed to enjoy their 72 virgins when they have no reproductive organs?

4. Related to 3, granted that your bodily paradise actually existed, why on earth would that be the goal of Muslim striving? Why would your martyrs want that? We eat in order to keep ourselves alive as individuals, and sexual relations are to keep the species alive. Why should someone desire food or sexual intercourse when he has achieved immortality?

5. Supposing that your martyrs desired such a reward, wouldn't they rather deserve Hell? This would mean that they prefer carnal delights to God, who alone is to be loved and adored as a final end, and who alone is the ultimate "goal" of the rational creature.

6. And speaking of Heaven and Hell, how do Muslims propose to escape the fires of Hell? Even a single serious sin turns us away from God, makes us enemies of God, and merits everlasting punishment. You'll presumably tell me that God is merciful, but I'll reply that He is Justice Itself. Pray as much as you want, but if there is nothing to counterbalance the infinite debt of punishment that you have merited through your sins, then you have no escape from His righteous indignation.

7. Is it true that Mohommed says that it's sometimes OK to tell a lie? If so, he knew that telling a lie is always wrong, right?

Thanks in advance.

**h-n** · 01-12-2015

Originally Posted by confused43

i am wondering what you mean by prove god is not one ? i know nothing about Islam, or the people that believe, in Allah, but with all the things happening in the world today i somewhat fear what i do not even understand, can you please enlighten me as to why all these terrible things are happening , i really just really want to understand what the Islam want , from the world or even in general, forgive me if you find me stupid , i may well be but i am asking for you to help me understand these things happening if you can

Here a few basic things about Islam;-

1. We follow the same message which were given by the Prophets Noah, David, Solomon, Moses, Ibrahim peace be upon them-to worship the ONE GOD, remember the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell.

We call God, Allah, to accept that he is one, means that he is not connected with anything. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the last Prophet chosen by God. God also gave us the stories of the previous Prophets, as of course they belong to him and the message is all and the same.

We absolutely reject that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him will be judging people on the Day of Judgement, he is not all seeing and all hearing. God is not just a stage builder for the Day of Judgement, he is also the judge-part of the 10 commandments that there is only one God. (people who like to quote trinity, treat us like we live in another world, when it is said by Christians themselves, that they don't get it either). They are told just to accept Prophet Jesus peace be upon him as their saviour, regardless of what makes sense, this is idol worship, where people in the past created idols, and people were just told to accept them without question, just accept it, just accept it.

As the people feared the authorities at the time of Prophet Jesus peace be upon him, even though he had a table spreadth of food from heaven, it showed that they were not loyal (if they couldn't fight then, then they shouldn't be fighting for anything). So God allows evil doers to be fooled as the wealthy think that they are doing well. Prophet Jesus peace be upon him was taken to Heaven, he didn't come back in this world-why should he come back when people were not loyal?? The magicians at Pharoah's court had their feet and hands chopped off and died, in the history of this world, the religious have been persecuted, they remained steadfast, which is what people should have done. Prophet Jesus peace be upon him spoke to people when he was a baby and everything he did, people still feared the authorities.

2. This world is only temporary and everything that we do, is for the one Day that we have not even lived yet-the Day of Judgement, this is our only goal to be successful in the hereafter, where people are close to God and enjoy Paradise (which is not in this world, but a seperate place). Where there are gardens, mansions, and trees, where people are able to understand the language of the creatures.

3. As per the Day of Judgement we accept that people will not be able to care about each other on that Day, not a Mother for her child etc. All faces are turned to God to be judged. It is only people's records with God's mercy that can help them. So the evil doers who led others astray, will be disowning each other, even though they were staunch supporters of each other.

So as per the Day of Judgement-it shows that the Muslims are NOT going to spend time sucking up to people, gaining attention, as they cannot help you on the Day of Judgement. We do not wish to waste the time of others, as of course people can die at any time.

So even children who have died do not care even if an adult feels sympathy-because if they are on the path to Hellfire, they care not. The dead do not interfere with the tests of people.

4. To be religious also entails leading a religious life, that doesn't mean that we are restricted in working in many fields and doing art work etc. This is where we worship the one God, pray 5 times a day, fast in the month of Ramadan, visit Mecca, provide the poor their due. Now the Prophets in the past prayed to God, the angels themselves praise and ask for God to help so and so. They even go up to God's throne. The Kaaba in Mecca has been created by Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him (where the Jews accept that he created many houses of worship). Just as angels visit God and wish to go around his throne if they could, we treat the Kaaba as the central place to worship to God. (here we do not worship the Kaaba), where the Jews also treat the wailing wall and pray in front of it.

The angels visit those who worship God, so many angels visit places of worship (who worship the one God only -which means accepting him only as our saviour and not anything to do with the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him).

We fast as the Prophets have done aforetime, charity is of absolute importance, being kind to others and taking care of people.

5. As above we are servants of God, just as the angels are servants of God, the Christians like to say they are children of God, when that is wrong, and God said if you were why does he punish you, or allow people to have problems?? Even the Archangel Gabriel is not a child of God but a servant.

6. Regardless of what people are stating, and some Muslims, our goal is not to take over the world, but to live and die as a Muslim. Never did God say that we were to take over the world, that we need to make sure that everyone becomes a Muslim.

It is rather that when people accepted Islam, they wished to live under Islamic rule, you can't just take over a country and start islamic law-when muslim way of life is for Muslims.

7. We accept that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him will be returning, where people will not be worshipping him, neither will be be resurrecting all the people in the history of this world. he will be in this world for 40 years, were there is reference that he will getting married, where neither will his wife be treated as some sort of saviour.

This will occur during what we call the Major signs of the Day of Judgement. Prophet Jesus peace be upon him will not be distracting anyone from the rememberance of the Day of Judgement (where no Prophet has failed to do so). So for people to say that the world will all be perfect for like 1000 years, or whatever is wrong, are they then saying that no one will be tested with any issues??? That no one needs to think about death?? Prophet Jesus peace be upon him will die. After the beast will come who will mark people's foreheads, whether they are good or bad. After the sun rises from the other side, no one can repent, change. Satan is not locked up (but rather less corruption ie no countries as you see today, no internet, no telephone (the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him will not be appearing on TV etc) there will be less people in this world. After the sun rises, the after the sound is heard signifying the commencement of the Day of Judgement.

8. What we believe is happening today, is no different to those who supported the homosexuals, they didn't want to side with the Prophet Lut peace be upon him, as they feared being berated, so they did not stand with the Prophet Lut peace be upon him. The homosexuals even said (quote in the Quran, that this Prophet wishes us to be GOOD-unlike in this world now due to people and media making excuses and hiding behind respectful intentions-when they are far from it). So the Muslims are being attacked as the religious were attacked, as we do not accept their way of life, being in the year 2015 doesn't make it acceptable.

There are issues where countries are full of greed, and wish to attack countries to take over, they have so far attacked Niger, Somolia, Yemen, Libya, Pakistan etc. Of course the governments don't explain to people of what they are doing there in the first place. There is also an issue with Israel (where they allow gay pride there) where there is belief that 9/11 was an inside job, as the zionists were fighting the Muslims on their own, they wished to make it everybody's else's war, so to get people to become anti-Muslim. Typical evil doers and jealous people, where they wish that everyone else had nothing.

The majority of Muslims are just carrying on with their lives, were we have tolerated others by not making cartoons etc of them. So here we are not asking for anyone for anything, expect that they should not be bombing etc.

We are the only people following in the ways of the Prophet, where we do not differentiate, we just had the benefit of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him-and its a no brainer, if we didn't have him we would be useless in this world and the next.

So we do live in peace, where people ie in France cannot accuse the Muslims of stopping them having sex outside of marriage etc. We wholeheartedly believe that yes the anti christ will be arriving (which is after these countries as you see them today), so people can choose to believe or to treat themselves like people in the past, where they thought they would continue, when God destroyed people for accepting homosexuality etc.

So from all the above we basically live our lives by the next world, as I would not wish to stand with the evil doers (thereby showing that I rather sided with people who were lewd etc rather then listening to the Prophets). Even those that died, regret getting along with the evil doers, and wish they could come back into this world and go against them. If you can't say it on the Day of Judgement, then don't say it at all.

**confused43** · 01-12-2015

HEY , HI, I just wanted to say what you have said actually makes much sense to me i don't believe much of the bible , i believe there is a god just not really sure which one at this point, but at this point i really don't feel so stupid, can i private message you , i would like to ask you some other things please

**h-n** · 01-12-2015

Originally Posted by confused43

HEY , HI, I just wanted to say what you have said actually makes much sense to me i don't believe much of the bible , i believe there is a god just not really sure which one at this point, but at this point i really don't feel so stupid, can i private message you , i would like to ask you some other things please

If you mean myself, then yes you can private message me.

**Hulk** · 01-12-2015

Originally Posted by confused43

i am wondering what you mean by prove god is not one ? i know nothing about Islam, or the people that believe, in Allah, but with all the things happening in the world today i somewhat fear what i do not even understand, can you please enlighten me as to why all these terrible things are happening , i really just really want to understand what the Islam want , from the world or even in general, forgive me if you find me stupid , i may well be but i am asking for you to help me understand these things happening if you can

The crux of the Islamic faith is that there is only one God and that He alone should be worshipped. If one can prove that that is false then Islam crumbles, regardless of how much sense everything else in it might make.

If you don't mind perhaps you can open a new thread for your queries? You might be able to put forth your words better in it without unrelated issues getting in the way.

**Sojourn** · 01-13-2015

Peace be with you,

Originally Posted by Hulk

The crux of the Islamic faith is that there is only one God and that He alone should be worshipped. If one can prove that that is false then Islam crumbles, regardless of how much sense everything else in it might make.

Phrasing it this way almost makes it sound like Islam is synonymous with monotheism, but that of course is not the case. Most of us here are monotheists, and that includes us Christians who acknowledge the trinity. I don't mean to be nitpicking the flow of your statement but it's not sound.

**Hulk** · 01-13-2015

Originally Posted by Sojourn

Phrasing it this way almost makes it sound like Islam is synonymous with monotheism, but that of course is not the case. Most of us here are monotheists, and that includes us Christians who acknowledge the trinity. I don't mean to be nitpicking the flow of your statement but it's not sound

I'm sure you would agree that it would be wrong to say that our concept of the Oneness of God is the same, though Christians also believe that they believe that God is One. So when it comes to Christianity and Islam, a person who is interested in learning about them would undoubtedly find that the most important would be their concept of God.

I think you would probably agree that a christian cannot be a christian unless he believes in the Trinity, similarly a muslim cannot be muslim unless he believes that God is One.

Do note that I do not stop at saying "There is only one God.", I also say "He alone should be worshipped.".

There are some who would say that they believe in only one God, but when it comes to worship, things other than God come in; whether it is in a form of an idol or a human being, etc.

**Sojourn** · 01-13-2015

Peace be with you,

Originally Posted by Hulk

I'm sure you would agree that it would be wrong to say that our concept of the Oneness of God is the same, though Christians also believe that they believe that God is One. So when it comes to Christianity and Islam, a person who is interested in learning about them would undoubtedly find that the most important would be their concept of God.

I would say we simply have different concepts of God, despite both of us being monotheists. Now even though you may stress monotheism as you understand it, even Islamic belief concerning the Quran comes very close to what we believe about Jesus. I have heard and read Muslims describe the Quran as Uncreated and Eternal, a rather remarkable set of statements to attach to a book. Now the question I naturally have is what then is the relationship of the Quran with Allah? It is the speech of Allah, according to Islamic belief, but is the speech of Allah separate from Allah? If not, how then is the Qur'an distinct? You see, if one probes into this deeper, we're really not that different in the end.

Pax et bonum

**h-n** · 01-13-2015

Originally Posted by Sojourn

Peace be with you,

I would say we simply have different concepts of God, despite both of us being monotheists. Now even though you may stress monotheism as you understand it, even Islamic belief concerning the Quran comes very close to what we believe about Jesus. I have heard and read Muslims describe the Quran as Uncreated and Eternal, a rather remarkable set of statements to attach to a book. Now the question I naturally have is what then is the relationship of the Quran with Allah? It is the speech of Allah, according to Islamic belief, but is the speech of Allah separate from Allah? If not, how then is the Qur'an distinct? You see, if one probes into this deeper, we're really not that different in the end.

Pax et bonum

What your doing is actually bizarre, as your listening to some Muslims to say that we are all the same, just like we can pick out with Christians. The Quran has been created by God, whoever said it was uncreated, where did Islam ever teach that? (listening to some Muslims-that you probably can't name isn't good enough). God spoke the words, the MEANING of the Quran ie when God says he is ONE, that he is uncreated, is always been and always ever will be (which you broke the rule here on the 10 commandments that there is only one God.

You cannot have different concepts about the one God, Christianity is pure and simple idol worship-you say that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is your saviour-he is NOT, you say that he will be judging you on the Day of Judgement-when is not all seeing or all hearing. There are sins etc that when good people repent, will not be made known to others and they certainly don't wish for people to know. They always know that God always knows, but now you are saying that a Man will know too.

You even say that the son is the father, the father is the son etc. frankly its disgusting. Here to say that God, Lord of the Worlds is a son, and the father is the son etc. is pure evil. Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a Man, who drank (not wine), and ate, went to the toilet and slept. When at church is there not a service that this is bread is the body of Christ as you put it and drink wine that you say is the blood of Christ-so here you are treating him as a savior and saying he is one of three but that you are consuming him (CANNABILISM PERFORMANCE)?? When you die do not some people of your religion say that this body that we have is vile??? That God will replace it with a better one?? So what are you saying that the body of Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is vile too??

God is one -where 100% he is not connected with anyone, no one created him (where he created Archangel Gabriel and Prophet Jesus peace be upon him later).

To say that we are similar is an offensive thing, it is unacceptable-who are you to say that we are the same??? When Muslims and Christians in the history of this world have denied that. Even those Muslims that you say said such a thing-did you bother to ask them if they thought that our religions are the same?? As you should have done and asked the very people who say such things, instead of asking people who have nothing to do with what they say. Instead of picking and choosing who you wish to listen to-in turn who you wish to agree with. Which is what the USA does, finds so called Muslims who are willing to listen to their tripe.

We follow after all the Prophets, where ie Prophet Moses peace be upon him worshipped the one God-never did they say that he is one of three (even though Prophet Jesus peace be upon him came after, the Prophets were aware of who would come after them), neither did they say that God is one of two, as the Archangel Gabriel was already created. So you need to refrain from saying on a islamic forum that you and I worship the same God, when you take Prophet Jesus peace be upon him as your saviour.

**BlueOwl358** · 01-13-2015

Ooh, long questions with long paragraphs and multitudes of questions, the kind of questions I like to reply.

Originally Posted by Traditio

1. From what I understand, you guys believe that angels have bodies made of light, and that these things called "djinn" have bodies made of fire. But they're invisible. Fire and light are per se (essentially) visible. Isn't it a flat out contradiction to believe in invisible fire people?

Yes, Angels, and Jinn, are beliefs held in Islam as creations of Allah. However, restricting the capabilities of God by just the simple amount of knowledge we have is nonsense. The Creator knows science way more than the created. But just for the sake of fun, methanol fires are invisible and have no visible flame nor smoke.

You can search it up on Google, methanol fires. The 1981 Indianapolis 500 had one of these, someone got lit on fire by an invisible fire.

There you go, invisible fire with absolutely no smoke. And also, another thing Islam teaches, is that Jinn are made from fires that have no smoke. Also, as for invisible light, visible light isn't the only part of the electromagnetic spectrum, and infrared light is one example, which is also invisible. Now, I do not know the precise details of other creation, and they may not even be truly invisible, as they do have visible forms, but the point is, the statement that all forms of light and fire are visible is false.

Originally Posted by Traditio

2. Granted that it's not a contradiction to believe in invisible fire people, I have a further question about their bodies. I am assuming that, since they have bodies, they are therefore animals (body-soul composites). Are their bodies complex (made up of a diversity of organs), or are they relatively simple (for example, in the sense that a camp-fire is relatively simple...that is, not made up of individual "parts," so to speak, but is just one fire)? If they are complex, then how on earth does that work? What would it mean to have an eye or an ear made of light or fire? If their bodies are simple, then how are they able to see, hear, etc? The senses require complex bodily organs. If they don't sense, then what's the point of their having bodies?

How will the day be when some non-Islamic scientist actually meets an Angel. lol. I have absolutely no idea, cause I am just a human who doesn't know what invisible beings look like since they are invisible and no one told me. Other then that Angels are huge, fill the horizon, and have wings. But I have not studied them.

Originally Posted by Traditio

3. From what I understand, you guys believe that martyrs enjoy bliss in a bodily paradise, where they shall indulge their carnal appetites for food, drink and sexual intercourse...without their bodies? How do you suppose that is supposed to work? Avicenna's answer is that good philosophers bypass these carnal delights altogether and partake of intelligible delights, whereas the ordinary, run of the mill Muslims who, nonetheless, lived good lives will enjoy these carnal delights...by imagining them. But this is, of course, false. Imagination requires bodily organs, and your martyrs are not currently united to their bodies. We can be quite sure of this. If you doubt this, go and check. I assure you, their bodies are still in (or on) the ground and, even if intact, are quite lifeless. So, in short, how are your martyrs supposed to eat the heavenly super fruit when they have neither mouth, tongue, throat nor stomach? How are they supposed to enjoy their 72 virgins when they have no reproductive organs?

No bodies, where did you hear that? That has no basis, all people in heaven and hell will have bodies. The people of heaven will be in their thirties at the hight of 90 feet tall. Simple answer for long question.

Originally Posted by Traditio

4. Related to 3, granted that your bodily paradise actually existed, why on earth would that be the goal of Muslim striving? Why would your martyrs want that? We eat in order to keep ourselves alive as individuals, and sexual relations are to keep the species alive. Why should someone desire food or sexual intercourse when he has achieved immortality?

That is also very simple. Although food is eaten to keep us alive, that is not the only reason and any human should know that. Haven't you eaten a giant delicious serving of, well, anything, just for the enjoyment? I mean, I know more people eat strawberries for their taste and enjoyment than nourishment. Just because you can live forever, you would wanna keep out of strawberries? I mean dude! STRAWBERRIES! Immortality does not remove the wish for desire and pleasure, just, not dying, being in perfect health and fitness with all organs working at an awesome rate.

Originally Posted by Traditio

5. Supposing that your martyrs desired such a reward, wouldn't they rather deserve Hell? This would mean that they prefer carnal delights to God, who alone is to be loved and adored as a final end, and who alone is the ultimate "goal" of the rational creature.

Who says they desire such a reward, all they want to do is to please God, and they aim for that pleasement, way more than anything else. Muslims aim for heaven to have the greatest reward, God being happy with them, and that is the single most important goal, any other physical reward is a lesser reward. You can read up Hadith Qudsi 40 online, it is a long Hadith so I won't bother, but the point is, martyrs do not prefer carnal delights and their whole point of allowing themselves to be killed is for God, so your statement is also.... Without basis.

Originally Posted by Traditio

6. And speaking of Heaven and Hell, how do Muslims propose to escape the fires of Hell? Even a single serious sin turns us away from God, makes us enemies of God, and merits everlasting punishment. You'll presumably tell me that God is merciful, but I'll reply that He is Justice Itself. Pray as much as you want, but if there is nothing to counterbalance the infinite debt of punishment that you have merited through your sins, then you have no escape from His righteous indignation.

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My mercy prevails over my wrath. It was related by Muslim (also by al-Bukhari, an-Nasa'i and Ibn Majah).

Humans can not judge justice and define it. Only God can, he decides all things and the proper punishment for all things. And his Justice says he will forgive anyone of anything other than polytheism.

Anas (radhiallahu anhu) said that he heard the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) say: “Allah the Exalted said: “O son of Adam! As long as you invoke Me and plead to Me, I will forgive you whatever you have committed, and I will not make much of it. O son of Adam! If your evil deeds reach the borders of the sky, and then you ask Me for forgiveness, I will forgive you. O son of Adam! If you bring forth the earth full of errors, then you meet Me while you do not associate anything (or anyone) with Me, I will bring forth for you its full of forgiveness.” [At-Tirmidhee (Shaikh Albanee rendered it as Hasan)]

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “I swear by Him in whose hand is my soul, if you were a people who did not commit sin, Allah would take you away and replace you with a people who would sin and then seek Allah’s forgiveness so He could forgive them.” [Sahīh Muslim (2687)]

God did not create humans to be perfect, he made them imperfect. He made us so we could ask his forgiveness, and that is the entire reason why humans were made and are better than angels. God created us so He can show us His glory, not that we can show our nothingness to him.

Originally Posted by Traditio

7. Is it true that Mohommed says that it's sometimes OK to tell a lie? If so, he knew that telling a lie is always wrong, right?

827

Saying Mohommed is disrespectful. Arabic is a language where a slight variation can have a completely opposite meaning, and sometimes a negative and insightful one.

All deeds are based on intention, if a deed is for bad intent, it will be written as a bad deed, if it is for a good intent, it will be written as a good dead.

It is narrated on the authority of Amir al-Mu'minin (Leader of the Believers), Abu Hafs 'Umar bin al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), say: "Actions are according to intentions, and everyone will get what was intended. Whoever migrates with an intention for Allah and His messenger, the migration will be for the sake of Allah and his Messenger. And whoever migrates for worldly gain or to marry a woman, then his migration will be for the sake of whatever he migrated for." Related by Bukhari & Muslim

Now, in some cases, inventing information is allowed if it is for a good intention.

Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba: That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." (Bukhari: Book #49, Hadith #857)

But lying, and all things that are absolutely lies, wrong, in no way true regardless of anything, and is judged to be a lie, is a sin and the sign of a hypocrite. But saying someone looks great is, because of common sense, just a compliment and not a lie, can't be said to be bad.

That was relatively simple. Diverse problems for Islam? No. Diverse problems for humans who can't comprehend? Yes.

The invisible methanol fire lighting up someone from the Indianapolis was cool. I mean it is an invisible fire burning someone!

So if you can believe in visible fire people, you can definitely believe in invsible fire people.
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**BlueOwl358** · 01-13-2015

Oh, and after that, comes the rest of the giant conversation which seems to be hard to track. Monotheism is synonymous with Monothiesm, and thus a belief of monotheism is synonymous with Monothiesm, and thus, a belief of extremely strict monotheism can't be any more synonymous with monotheism. A trinity is not any more Monothiest then a Trimurti, which is what the Hindu religion believes in. Hindus believe in three personifications of the supreme truth, with the three having different roles and consciousness, no different then Trinitarian Christianity. But the question is, how can multiple consciousness coexist in thought, action, decision, and all emotion despite one of them being a human and obviously open to sin. How can you be capable of sin in one consciousness and sinless in the other. One essence cannot be divided into three consciousnesses, because a human soul can lie, and is limited in all aspects including thought, reason, thought, emotion, and everything, a divine one is not.

A divine and pure and supreme essence, can not become lower in level and pureness into an impure essence and still be divine.

As for the relation between God's scripture and God Himself, the relation is no different then this text right here that I have typed and me and my consciousness. It is one-level and I am alive. It is a conveyance of what I have said, but it is not physically me.

Both religions believe in a supreme, all powerful God, and are thus monotheistic, but the difference is that Islam believes that nothing else can be as supreme, or all powerful in essence as that of God, but Christianity does. Christianity believes that God makes a human who he intentionally made capable of sin, have the same essence as himself, and that God, makes his own ultimate essence lower itself into an un-ultimate, impure, sweaty, hairy, tiny, human.
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**tearose** · 01-13-2015

Originally Posted by h-n

The Quran has been created by God, whoever said it was uncreated, where did Islam ever teach that?

As-salaamu 3laikum sister, this is not correct, kindly read this: http://islamqa.info/en/10153

However, the analogy being made between this and the Trinity is utterly false.

**Sojourn** · 01-13-2015

Peace be with you H-n,

Originally Posted by h-n

What your doing is actually bizarre, as your listening to some Muslims to say that we are all the same, just like we can pick out with Christians. The Quran has been created by God, whoever said it was uncreated, where did Islam ever teach that?

I was as amazed as you when I first heard it, and I discovered it is a fundamental part of Asharia aqeedah, even Imam Hanbal was whipped for refusing to say the Quran is created!

You cannot have different concepts about the one God, Christianity is pure and simple idol worship-you say that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is your saviour-he is NOT, you say that he will be judging you on the Day of Judgement-when is not all seeing or all hearing. There are sins etc that when good people repent, will not be made known to others and they certainly don't wish for people to know. They always know that God always knows, but now you are saying that a Man will know too.

I would like to address your points here but unfortunately it would probably run close to "clarifying Christianity" which this section of the forum is not about. Let me just say that we simply believe as Jesus taught us, see John 5:22-23 as just one example. And I'll leave it at that.

You even say that the son is the father, the father is the son etc.

No, *you* say that, and are now both putting words in our mouth and attacking your misconception of what we believe. We believe the Father is distinct from the Son. Again, I can't go into details.

Pax et bonu,

**Sojourn** · 01-13-2015

Peace be with you Tearose,

Originally Posted by tearose

As-salaamu 3laikum sister, this is not correct, kindly read this: http://islamqa.info/en/10153

However, the analogy being made between this and the Trinity is utterly false.

This is really the discussion that I think is worth having, why do you believe the analogy is false? Why is it ok to say the Quran is uncreated and eternal but wrong for us to say that the Son is uncreated and eternal?

Pax et bonum

**M.I.A.** · 01-13-2015

Originally Posted by confused43

i am wondering what you mean by prove god is not one ? i know nothing about Islam, or the people that believe, in Allah, but with all the things happening in the world today i somewhat fear what i do not even understand, can you please enlighten me as to why all these terrible things are happening , i really just really want to understand what the Islam want , from the world or even in general, forgive me if you find me stupid , i may well be but i am asking for you to help me understand these things happening if you can

IMO, terrible things happen because people allow them too.. They work towards them often unknowingly or knowingly.

Take for instance the Paris shootings, nobody says its not a bad thing... Could it have been prevented yesterday or the day before.

Almost certainly. Not through intelligence and intervention.. Although it is there for as long as can be.

But through a fear of god and an understanding that we all cause ripples in the pond.. Something one can go through life never quiet seeing.

Islam is not only the one ness of god, it would be a short book if it were. It is about the entirety of ones life.

I'm not saying all things can be avoided by being careful, prudent and respectful.. Or that those who oppose you will be any different.. I just think damage limitation is key.

Not everyone can live in a similar mindset and neither do I expect them too.. Each and every person develops a character through willingness or through circumstance.

In the scheme of things, nobody knows what series of events they set into action and how the consequences play out.. If that's fait or poor planning I have no idea.

After figuring out what the oneness of god is all about you will probably direct your attention to what guidance actually is.

**h-n** · 01-13-2015

Sojourn,

I can only apologise, as I didn't know of course not going to know what all other Muslims say, I have given an explanation on my response to tearose.

It is something that needs then to be left for the Day of Judgement, but at least people can see that we don't just idly accept Islam, because our parents have told us to. But I personally am not happy that people go so far as making Islam complicated, when God did not do such a thing. There are unfortunately issues where I have met Muslims who wish to treat Islam as a physics degree-where a physics student has the right to walk down the street and know that not everybody has learnt what he/she have learnt. There are Muslims who wish to do the same with religion over complicate it, when we are only here for a short amount of time, even a Jew was asked once what is the meaning of your religion, of course to worship God, but basically treat people how you wish to be treated.

There are going to be differences, but as Muslims we try and refrain from taking it so far and arguing about it, as being concerned about the hereafter. It is not right that people argue about God-then here take it to God on the Day of Judgement and leave it to that, as there are answers to questions that can only be given by him. (so useless wasting the short time of people).

Thank-you for your time.

**M.I.A.** · 01-13-2015

I don't think its complicated, that's the beauty of it.. A person is and does long before any forthaught enters there mind..

But if things were simple then the persuit of knowledge would only lead to a single answer. How far that answer develops is complicated..

Take for example science, the laws have always been the same.. Only our understanding of them has improved with time.

Its the persuit of the question until you can make sense of it, pondering upon things.. Although even that is no guarantee of an accurate answer.

As you correctly stated ours is but a grain of sand in an hour glass.

One of those things that furthers belief in god.

But the reality of the situation is if there is any point in trying to affect the situation and to what end.

**Traditio** · 01-13-2015

Originally Posted by h-n

Your not the first "Christian" who comes and asks questions befitting of an Atheist (also the questions that you pose go against Christianity too). But here are the following answers;-

1. My apologies for not getting around to answering you sooner.

2. You are mistaken. My objections don't arise in the context of Christianity.

A. I think that angels and demons don't have bodies. I think that they are finite, incorporeal, spiritual, intellectual substances. They don't naturally have bodies. As such, they occupy a middle place in the heirarchy between human beings (spiritual and corporeal) and God (spiritual, infinite and uncreated). Claiming that there are rational animals composed of fire or light or air or...to sum up, anything other than primarily of earth...is simply unreasonable and unnecessary.

B. I think that God does not promise a carnal reward in the afterlife. What He offers is the face to face vision of Himself, the Supreme Good. A carnal reward would be an excellent reward for us...if we were pigs, and the best thing about us were our animality. But we aren't. We are human beings with reason and will. We are persons, intellectual universes of knowledge and love, and have a natural longing for infinite being, truth and goodness which only the face to face vision of God can satisfy, but which only God can freely offer to us by grace (which, I say, He has made possible by grace through Jesus).

Yes, it's true that, after the final resurrection, we will get our bodies back again, either to join our souls in unending punishment, or else, in everlasting glory. But for all that, the chief pains of Hell will not be bodily, nor will the real delights of Heaven be bodily. The chief pain of Hell is the loss of God and knowing that you will never see God because of your own sins. The pleasure of Heaven is knowing and loving God face to face, in being caught up in His love and clinging to Him forever. Yes, this delight will overflow into the body as well, but the delight of seeing God face to face is intellectual, not carnal.

C. I think that it's always wrong to lie. As Jesus says, Satan is the father of lies, whereas God is Truth Itself.

We are made out of clay, but you can't tell that anymore, we are flexible and have blood pumping through our veins.

This makes sense in the context of the ancient theory of the four elements. If we assume that theory, then it's still evident that we are primarily made of earth. Our bodies are apparently held together by solid, firm stuff. But it makes no sense to speak of an animal made of fire, air or water. That stuff doesn't "stay put," so to speak.

So the Jinn people were made out of fire, they don't resemble fire just as we don't resemble clay.

Again, this is just wrong. If you read books II and III of Aristotle's De Anima (On the Soul), Aristotle think that it's pretty obvious that our bodies are made up of a great deal of earth (if you want to call it "clay," then that's fine). We are made up of a great deal of firm, solid stuff that stays put, plus a suitable admixture of the other elements (air, fire and water) to enable us to sense and interact with our environment.

They look like people

I thought that they're supposed to be invisible?

it as per Christianity they also accept the existence of devils, that they cannot see either.

I don't think that we can see the demons (fallen angels) because they don't naturally have bodies. Incorporeal realities aren't sensible.

Also in science, we cannot see all types of light.

Fair enough. I thought the invisible fire/light people, and it occurs to me that this doesn't work. I believe that, after the resurrection, the bodies of the ****ed will be tormented by a fire that doesn't give off any light. Why? In order to torment both the senses of sight (with darkness) and touch (with fiery pain).

which will be judged on the Day of Judgement, so your not going to go to Paradise because you know what a whale shark looks like, but that by what good deeds you do.

This is another objection I have to Islam. Do you really think that you can "earn" your way to Heaven?

2. Then why don't you say that about angels??? Not everything is about body and soul, it is rather that they have one body. Therefore when a human does evil, their soul becomes ugly-you cannot see this in this world due to their physical bodies, in regards to the devils, as there is not believed to be a soul, when they become evil, there physical forms turn ugly.

Let's get this straight. Are you telling me that, whereas human beings are composed of body and soul, demons and angels, even though they have bodies, don't also have souls?

3. As per Christianity, God created Prophet Adam peace be upon him's body in and he enjoyed eating with his wife-did he not famously eat an apple-as per Christian belief??

There are different things I could say about this, but I'll rest here: that there's a disproportion between man's beginning (what man is capable of and given by nature) and end (that to which he is called as his final perfection).

The reward in the hereafter is also physical

If you are correct, then there can be no rewards or punishments until the final resurrection. Unless you want to say that they have different bodies now, and will be given another set of bodies at the resurrection, which is just patently wrong (for reasons Aristotle gives in the De Anima). That involves the error of thinking that any soul can go into any body. That's wrong. My soul naturally is suited to actuated my body! Note here that we find a correlate of this in the Christian faith. Jesus didn't "hop" from one body to another. No! When Jesus appeared to his apostles, the tomb was empty.

Contemplate that.

So then what are you saying that everything that you enjoy in this world is wrong??

Even in this life, not all delights are bodily. Plato makes this point outstandingly in the Symposium and in other places, Plotinus fastens onto it excellently. Yes, there are beauties and pleasures of bodies and of the senses. But don't these pale in comparison with the beauties and pleasures of good and morally fine ways of life? With the beauties and pleasures of thoughts and sciences? Of contemplation of divine things?

The greatest pleasures are contemplative, not carnal.

Then you can go so far and say what is the point of being MAle or female in the next world either, we still retain our own sex identity. Being able to socialise with others is a priviledge, and have relations with, these don't go away ie your relatives. Then are you saying what God has allowed in this world has become a sin in the next??? How is it that Mary giving birth to Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is an abnormal thing in the next world?? How is it that marriage, a good, blessed thing, just doesn't exist in the next world??

In this life, it is fitting for human beings, as animals, to eat and drink (to preserve their bodies) and to get married and have children (in order to keep the human race going). But these things have no place in the next life. For the ****ed, it would be would be inconsistent with their punishment. For the Blessed, it would be unnecessary and superfluous: they have attained true immortality. They have attained the original, the reality, of which marriage and the begetting of children here is but a dim reflection and shadow.

Also actually there are Christians who think they will become like angels in the next world-where do they claim this from???

I have a vague idea of what you're talking about, but not entirely. Would you explain the question more?

We strive to be successful in the hereafter which means having God pleased with us, if it was our only goal to get married and eat food in the next world, do you honestly think that we would be praying 5 times a day, fasting in the month of Ramadan, spending savings to go to Mecca, give to charity? Because by definition you are saying that the Muslims are materialistic, where materialistic people don't have much discipline, neither would they be willing to die in the name of Allah, but rather stay and enjoy the life of this world.

Yes, this doesn't make any sense to me. How can a Muslim, in one and the same breath, claim that Allah wants him or her to restrain himself in this life, but also offers him a reward of everlasting gluttony and debauchery in the next? Or am I misunderstanding the claim?

What is actually bizarre where you get some Christians say that they are going to to rule over others ie like Jehovah's witness, why would you need to rule over someone, when people are only enjoying their lives in the next world?

I'm not a Jehovah's witness.

You yourself lie by saying that people only eat to survive and have sex to procreate, so if you where presented with delicious, sweet dishes, you would only choose the bland because it is sufficient??? You really expect people to believe that people only have sex to procreate?? So that then means if they only wanted 2 kids, and if the wife was successful in getting pregnant straightaway, they only have had sex twice in the whole of their lifetime???

Food and drink are naturally ordered to survival. Sex is naturally ordered to bearing children. Of course, people go to excess. The fact of the matter is that people have disordered and unruly desires and appetites. Humanity is fallen because of original sin.

If we did not have Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, it is only obvious that we would not have been helped for the Christians for saying that God has taken himself a son (committing idol worship)

I'm afraid that you don't understand our doctrine. How do you understand this claim, that "God has taken himself a son"? What do you think we mean by it?

**Traditio** · 01-13-2015

My apologies, one of my words got censored. I wasn't intending to use a bad word. For the censored word, you may instead read "the condemned (that is, those who are lost forever in Hell).

**h-n** · 01-13-2015

Originally Posted by Traditio

1. My apologies for not getting around to answering you sooner.

2. You are mistaken. My objections don't arise in the context of Christianity.

A. I think that angels and demons don't have bodies. I think that they are finite, incorporeal, spiritual, intellectual substances. They don't naturally have bodies. As such, they occupy a middle place in the heirarchy between human beings (spiritual and corporeal) and God (spiritual, infinite and uncreated). Claiming that there are rational animals composed of fire or light or air or...to sum up, anything other than primarily of earth...is simply unreasonable and unnecessary.

B. I think that God does not promise a carnal reward in the afterlife. What He offers is the face to face vision of Himself, the Supreme Good. A carnal reward would be an excellent reward for us...if we were pigs, and the best thing about us were our animality. But we aren't. We are human beings with reason and will. We are persons, intellectual universes of knowledge and love, and have a natural longing for infinite being, truth and goodness which only the face to face vision of God can satisfy, but which only God can freely offer to us by grace (which, I say, He has made possible by grace through Jesus).

Yes, it's true that, after the final resurrection, we will get our bodies back again, either to join our souls in unending punishment, or else, in everlasting glory. But for all that, the chief pains of Hell will not be bodily, nor will the real delights of Heaven be bodily. The chief pain of Hell is the loss of God and knowing that you will never see God because of your own sins. The pleasure of Heaven is knowing and loving God face to face, in being caught up in His love and clinging to Him forever. Yes, this delight will overflow into the body as well, but the delight of seeing God face to face is intellectual, not carnal.

C. I think that it's always wrong to lie. As Jesus says, Satan is the father of lies, whereas God is Truth Itself.

This makes sense in the context of the ancient theory of the four elements. If we assume that theory, then it's still evident that we are primarily made of earth. Our bodies are apparently held together by solid, firm stuff. But it makes no sense to speak of an animal made of fire, air or water. That stuff doesn't "stay put," so to speak.

Again, this is just wrong. If you read books II and III of Aristotle's De Anima (On the Soul), Aristotle think that it's pretty obvious that our bodies are made up of a great deal of earth (if you want to call it "clay," then that's fine). We are made up of a great deal of firm, solid stuff that stays put, plus a suitable admixture of the other elements (air, fire and water) to enable us to sense and interact with our environment.

I thought that they're supposed to be invisible?

I don't think that we can see the demons (fallen angels) because they don't naturally have bodies. Incorporeal realities aren't sensible.

Fair enough. I thought the invisible fire/light people, and it occurs to me that this doesn't work. I believe that, after the resurrection, the bodies of the ****ed will be tormented by a fire that doesn't give off any light. Why? In order to torment both the senses of sight (with darkness) and touch (with fiery pain).

This is another objection I have to Islam. Do you really think that you can "earn" your way to Heaven?

Let's get this straight. Are you telling me that, whereas human beings are composed of body and soul, demons and angels, even though they have bodies, don't also have souls?

There are different things I could say about this, but I'll rest here: that there's a disproportion between man's beginning (what man is capable of and given by nature) and end (that to which he is called as his final perfection).

If you are correct, then there can be no rewards or punishments until the final resurrection. Unless you want to say that they have different bodies now, and will be given another set of bodies at the resurrection, which is just patently wrong (for reasons Aristotle gives in the De Anima). That involves the error of thinking that any soul can go into any body. That's wrong. My soul naturally is suited to actuated my body! Note here that we find a correlate of this in the Christian faith. Jesus didn't "hop" from one body to another. No! When Jesus appeared to his apostles, the tomb was empty.

Contemplate that.

Even in this life, not all delights are bodily. Plato makes this point outstandingly in the Symposium and in other places, Plotinus fastens onto it excellently. Yes, there are beauties and pleasures of bodies and of the senses. But don't these pale in comparison with the beauties and pleasures of good and morally fine ways of life? With the beauties and pleasures of thoughts and sciences? Of contemplation of divine things?

The greatest pleasures are contemplative, not carnal.

In this life, it is fitting for human beings, as animals, to eat and drink (to preserve their bodies) and to get married and have children (in order to keep the human race going). But these things have no place in the next life. For the ****ed, it would be would be inconsistent with their punishment. For the Blessed, it would be unnecessary and superfluous: they have attained true immortality. They have attained the original, the reality, of which marriage and the begetting of children here is but a dim reflection and shadow.

I have a vague idea of what you're talking about, but not entirely. Would you explain the question more?

Yes, this doesn't make any sense to me. How can a Muslim, in one and the same breath, claim that Allah wants him or her to restrain himself in this life, but also offers him a reward of everlasting gluttony and debauchery in the next? Or am I misunderstanding the claim?

I'm not a Jehovah's witness.

Food and drink are naturally ordered to survival. Sex is naturally ordered to bearing children. Of course, people go to excess. The fact of the matter is that people have disordered and unruly desires and appetites. Humanity is fallen because of original sin.

I'm afraid that you don't understand our doctrine. How do you understand this claim, that "God has taken himself a son"? What do you think we mean by it?

1. Then as I am not always around forums, if you don't always get a reply-you'll need to continue to do your own research. Also your or over the place, asking questions like an atheist, then using Christianity to say what you believe-with no religious understanding of the basics, so happy to use the term Christianity, so its normal to reply with why are you asking such and such when this is even agreed by Christianity etc.

2. A-You use the word "think"-we are not interested in what you think-either give us factual evidence which you have non on what angels are, I have provided details that they have bodies and don't just float around but are physical beings carrying on the duties of God.

B. Here you use the word "think", again provide factual evidence, when I the proof is that Prophet Adam peace be upon him got thrown out of Paradise that he was enjoying with his wife.

C. Again does Aristotle or Plato have revelations from God-are they Prophets?? I don't care at all what they think.

Are you saying that God cannot create something out of fire and light? As that is itself going against the fact that God is All-Powerful. He is able to make fire stay and do what he wishes to it, it is a fact that the Jinn are made out of fire.

Can you see the devils now?? No you can't.
Can you see the angels right now? No you can't
Can you see God right now? No you can't

Just because you can't see something in this world, of course doesn't mean that they don't exist.

The devils exist with physical bodies, they can come into this world too. Just because you cannot see something that doesn't mean that it exists as a whisp of light, Paradise is a physical world.

How many times you denied the above, by saying you don't "think"-well that is not good enough.

It is a fact that people do good deeds and earn a place in Paradise with God's mercy. Why is this so wrong??? How should people's reward be earned, then why should people go to Hell??

The jinn are known to change shape, there are some who can quickly cover large distances, why do you assume that everything else is working at a starting point of how humans are made?? The jinn existed before human. If you think again this is flawed, that they are made out of fire, you need to give factual evidence, not what some people who are not Prophet came up with.

Again where is your religious documents, proof, are you saying that it doesn't say in the bible that there is a Paradise??? Where does it say that Paradise has been destroyed, where does it say that it wasn't a good enough reward??

Again bring religious documents to support your views. The soul can also see, here and feel. We see the angel of death when he takes our soul. There is punishment in the grave-which you need to read up on seperately. So the soul is not dead and lifeless. But the fact is that we will be resurrected back into our bodies. People will have the reward that they have earned after the Day of Judgement. A soul is actually something that we have little information about-so if to question something that you have no hope of further information, doesn't mean that your clever but foolish. We are not expected to know everything that God knows.

Prophet Jesus peace be upon him didn't appear to the apostles, it was Satan who led them astray. Why would he come back after the people rejected the authorites?? They left him and thought he went through an act of being killed and now you say he came back, its ridiculous. After all he done for them, he spoke when he was a baby, had the table of food spreadth from Heaven, no-the people had already too much and they were not good enough. Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is believed to be taken to Heaven, body and soul, he will not be getting a new body made for him when he returns back into this world, two angels will be bringing him down to Damascas-where Muslims will be waiting for him.

You say "beauties and pleasures of good and morally fine ways of life? With the beauties and pleasures of thoughts and sciences? Of contemplation of divine things?

The greatest pleasures are contemplative, not carnal."

Here the statement as above is broad and actually meaningless as you have not an example, but a thought, so where is it, where is the religious proof of what you will have in the next world and how you will live. Will you not be speaking to another human ever again?? Will you not be speaking to an angel?? Will you not even be speaking to creatures, whether they be birds or lions?? So what is that you will be doing?? As everything that God creates is an act of him mercy, we are the created and we enjoy what our Lord provides. So instead of making broad statements, you need to note down more detail on what and how you will be living in the hereafter, backed with religious documents.

We never said that the wicked would be getting married or having children, but they will be getting drinks of boiling water, and eating pus, and foul things. They wished to devour interest, and gossip etc, and live by consuming what isn't there's then what they took was evil and foul and foul is what they get in the hereafter.

Then you state;-

They have attained the original, the reality, of which marriage and the begetting of children here is but a dim reflection and shadow.

Again as previously it is a broad statement, which is meaningless, marriage is a blessed thing, you need to provide more details, ie will anyone be communicating with each other? what would former husbands/wives be saying to each other?? what then would children be doing around their mothers-or are you saying that they will treat them as if they mean nothing to them??

There are Christians today, who believe that they will become angel like, if you say that this isn't true, but anyway by what you are stating, you think you are going to be angelic like. We are humans not angels. We are part of Mankind, God created us well.

So you say that you disbelieve that the former Prophets ie King David peace be upon him fasted?? Even in judaism fasted, it is showing that we value God. Do you see the majority of Muslims as obese that we consume more food then is necessary?? Do you see us involved in running our lives by sex?? The fact is that you have provided no religious documents, or admit that the bible actually states there is a Paradise.

Again need to show religious proof, of what you say, people just don't get married to have children, they get married because they love each other. Are you then saying that when people love each other, that is not going to be anything of value in the next world??

I do understand, you say that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a son of God. Whatever you like to quote ie the son is the father, the father is the son etc. It is idol worship. Plenty of Christians don' understand it either-if you deny this, when I know its true, will just have to see what you say about it on the Day of Judgement.

--------

What this is rather showing is the claim of INDEPENDENCE that people like to live by. They think they don't need anyone's help or that they are independent from others, then they wish to reject that they have anything to do with anyone else in the hereafter because of ARROGANCE. It is a huge lie that people like to live by, and wish to see themselves as. So to ultimately say that you are not going to be living in Paradise, need to associate yourself with others, isn't because their is something wrong with it or goes against your religious beliefs, but rather that you don't wish it, so to be away from people.

There are many people in the west now who think they can do what they like, that no one can tell them what to do. There was even a case of an old woman telling teenage girls to quieten, and she was beaten by them. Anytime you mention some sort of advice, its who the hell do you think you are.

When they buy something, they have the attitude "because we paid for it", it somehow absolves all responsibility to society. For example buying a bottle of milk for a pound-do you really think that sufficiently pays for that bottle of milk?? What about all the work the farmer puts into it?? This is where you thank God and help other people.

This "because we paid for it" attitude is were people just by their produce and some (not all) don't help and give anything back. Because they have little interaction with people, ie buy their products at supermarkets, instead of growing crop and needing help of others, they view themselves arrogantly as independent.

So you just spent your time talking questioning things as an Atheist, using then Christian jargon ie the trinity, then talking about Plato and Aristotle and largely by what you "think" (all over the place). God has clearly given the message, so why would we need to think about what you think when you don't have any revelations by God, God did not speak to you from a burning bush, he didn't send any angel to give you a message, neither have you ever seen one. You have provided borad meaningless statements to the factual ones given by myself, with no real information from yourself on how people will be living and really what they will be doing.

This is where people who accept the one God, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell cannot be corrupted, are sincere in their intentions, if you take out one, you know that person has not the best intentions, here you take out Paradise for arrogance. We can only live as humans, which was not deplorable for Prophet Jesus peace be upon him to do so, neither was it awful for his Mother.

Either repent and become a Muslim, or stay as you are that is your choice of course, but what can be different is not posting your meaningless jargon on what you "think". As you can understand, people are not going to base facts and on what God says on what you think, when he has already revealed the truth, and where you have not brought a shred of religious verse to say that Paradise will not exist etc.

We will see each other on the Day of Judgement, and if you have chosen not to repent, so remember that everything that you write and say, isn't about my responses, but of how God All-Mighty will be responding to them.

**tearose** · 01-14-2015

Originally Posted by Sojourn

This is really the discussion that I think is worth having, why do you believe the analogy is false? Why is it ok to say the Quran is uncreated and eternal but wrong for us to say that the Son is uncreated and eternal?

Peace be upon you Sojourn,

It is correct to say that the Qur'an is uncreated because it is the Words of Allah. Words cannot exist separately from the speaker (to paraphrase the fatwa I linked to earlier). Speech is one of the Attributes of Allah. However, Jesus (peace be upon him), to whom you incorrectly refer as the son, was a created human being, and so there is no basis to refer to him in the way you have mentioned.

However, when a human being recites the Qur'an, their voice is created, but the words they are reciting are uncreated. Perhaps you were confused about that.