like for example, halal slaughter. After reading about how an animal is killed according to halal means, I realized "wow...that causes the animal to suffer a lot." But it's not my job to care if it causes the animal to suffer since that it what God says to do.
Aside from whether or not this kind of slaughter is the most humane, this sort of logic I quoted of you is the kind of religious logic that scares me the most. What if it was human suffering you thought to be ordained by God? Would you still be indifferent? And what if God told you to sacrifice your son on an altar or fly a plane into a building? I hope at some point along the line you would start to follow your own internal sense of morality instead of mere obedience to what you think is power.
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 06-22-2016 at 01:12 AM.
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Aside from whether or not this kind of slaughter is the most humane, this sort of logic I quoted of you is the kind of religious logic that scares me the most. What if it was human suffering you thought to be ordained by God? Would you still be indifferent?
Loaded questions...
...I'll bite.
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
And what if God told you to sacrifice your son on an altar or fly a plane into a building? I hope at some point along the line you would start to follow your own internal sense of morality instead of mere obedience to what you think is power.
Considering that Abraham (pbuh) was told to do exactly this - take his first born and sacrifice him on an altar - we have to ask, did he falter? Or did he do as commanded? More importantly, did God intervene before that proverbial knife ended up slitting the throat of his first born? Have you studied the Abrahamic faith traditions?
And if you have - how can you make such an erroneous and illogical comparison to 911? Stupid mate.
As for this loaded question I had no ideas airplanes were mentioned in the Qur'an, 14 centuries ago stupid.
Then you speak of morality.
Mind telling me what is defined as morality in your Atheist handbook? Please?
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
no, we can not just follow our internal sense of morality, as it is corruptable, and may be, and will be corrupted by our desires if we are not God conscious, and God-fearing. I am not saying to ignore our moral-sense, but to realise that Allah knows best.
Allah is all-wise, so we put our trust in Him so if He ordered me to kill my brother, I'd do it. But He doesn't.
This flawed logic of "follow your logic only, your own morality" is in direct contradiction with reality. Yes we should to a certain extent. but ignoring the Creator is utmost arrogance.
All that has happened to people turning away from Allah is moral degradation.
But humans only know so far, and ignoring the Creator can and will have devastating consequences for us humans.
The more I see around me, the more I see the need for reliance on Allah and to turn to Him for if we do not, corruption will continue to happen. As humans we need Allah ignoring this need will bring corruption.
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
(In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)
Hmm, it is a little more complicated, Pygoscelis.
Say I was in the military (I'm not and it's just a hypothetical example) and let's say I was a military commander and I'd sent in my men on a convert mission to destroy enemy target. Now, one of these men sees an old woman being hit by a man and this man has strong convictions that this is wrong and wants to stop the other man from doing so. This man NOW has to make a choice: His orders from me are obedience to my order and my order specifically includes ensuring that no one knows their vantage or location so that they can complete their mission. If this man steps in to stop the man whom he sees beating the old woman, he's just jeopardized his mission because he's just given away his location and possibly those of the other men I'd sent in with him. He's disobeyed my order. And if he or the other men die, then he's to blame. When I give an order, I wouldn't want to afford the morality of men because obedience is the key to a successful mission and not my men's individual logic and morals or ethics. Similarly, Islam cannot afford the logic of individual men and women or because their logic is incomplete and their morals or ethics devoid of completeness if not within a divine framework.
See, you don't believe in a God or any gods. But let's say there is a God and for the purposes of God we'll talk about God within the backdrop of Islam and this God is as He's said of Himself that He's Perfect and Sublime and Always wants the Best for His creation. If you accept this divine framework, you'd already know that obedience that point in time is the only perfect moral to have and anything other than that will lead you astray.
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Aside from whether or not this kind of slaughter is the most humane, this sort of logic I quoted of you is the kind of religious logic that scares me the most. What if it was human suffering you thought to be ordained by God? Would you still be indifferent? And what if God told you to sacrifice your son on an altar or fly a plane into a building? I hope at some point along the line you would start to follow your own internal sense of morality instead of mere obedience to what you think is power.
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
See, you don't believe in a God or any gods. But let's say there is a God and for the purposes of God we'll talk about God within the backdrop of Islam and this God is as He's said of Himself that He's Perfect and Sublime and Always wants the Best for His creation.
Why would I believe him? Or more to the point, why would I believe somebody who claims this for him, since he doesn't actually speak for himself, but through so-called "prophet" messengers.
format_quote Originally Posted by crimsontide06
Though I believe the answer was already given that it is fine to just say "God knows and I do not"
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
If you accept this divine framework, you'd already know that obedience that point in time is the only perfect moral to have and anything other than that will lead you astray.
I suppose, but look at it from the other side. I said this kind of thinking scares me, because from my vantage point your God is imaginary and by pushing your empathy and own moral copass aside, you are abandoning morality altogether.
We just had somebody above post that they would kill their brother without question if Allah told them to. All he now needs to become a mindless murderer with no empathy for what he is doing, is to become convinced that Allah wants that. This is a perfect justification for daesh or flying planes into buildings or "sacrificing" your children (ie, the stories of Abe and Isaac or worse yet Jephthah and his daughter) or killing them because they are "possessed", or hunting "witches" or mudering homosexuals, etc. We see such things in news headlines every once in a while. It is also the thinking of an obedient nazi soldier.
Obedience to power is not morality. Morality is doing what is right NO MATTER what you are told. And obedience is doing what you are told NO MATTER what is right. It genuinely scares me when people can't tell the two apart.
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 06-22-2016 at 04:02 AM.
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
Pygo, which book do you get your moral fortitude from? if anywhere?
Your argument sounds very much like this to me:
The irony is so on point, tragically... please don't weasel out - this is the second time I'm asking you the same question.
Scimi
EDIT: as for this:
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
We just had somebody above post that they would kill their brother without question if Allah told them to. All he now needs to become a mindless murderer with no empathy for what he is doing....[/snip]
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
format_quote Originally Posted by Timi Scar
Come on pygo, leave the little children alone and deal with me instead, ok?
They are not the ones who behave like children. That would be you. It is why I usually don't respond to you. You posted an interesting video though, so I will humour you this once.
format_quote Originally Posted by Timi Scar
Pygo, which book do you get your moral fortitude from? if anywhere?
My moral fortitude does not come from a book, nor from any dictator, tyrant, king, God or other authority figure. Yours doesn't either, if you have any.
Your argument sounds very much like this to me:
The irony is so on point, tragically... please don't weasel out - this is the second time I'm asking you the same question.
Interesting, and not at all what I was expecting when I hit play on that. Why does it remind you of what I have said above? Are you imagining Allah to be like that math teacher? Yes, I would indeed have been the boy who was shot dead, or at least the one who corrected the answer at the end in his notebook. I do value thinking for oneself and standing up to tyranical authority. If there were enough others with the courage of their convictions to stand up to that math teacher, some actual progress may have been made there.
Who? news to me dude... please show me who????
format_quote Originally Posted by Serenity
Allah is all-wise, so we put our trust in Him so if He ordered me to kill my brother, I'd do it. But He doesn't.
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 06-22-2016 at 04:23 AM.
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
They are not the ones who behave like children. That would be you. It is why I usually don't respond to you. You posted an interesting video though, so I will humour you this once.
admit, i shake you down baby you na like we. You been cornered more times than Amy's Baking Company, online - each time it was me doing the cornering and you doing the cowering...
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
My moral fortitude does not come from a book, nor from any dictator, tyrant, king, God or other authority figure. Yours doesn't either, if you have any.
|Where does it come from then? lollypop stick jokes? come on... tell me. Don't just jog on fella. Let me get to know you a little you dodgy rascal.
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Interesting, and not at all what I was expecting when I hit play on that. Why does it remind you of what I have said above? Are you imagining Allah to be like that math teacher? Yes, I would indeed have been the boy who was shot dead, or at least the one who corrected the answer at the end in his notebook. If there were enough others with the courage of their convictions to stand up to that math teacher, some actual progress may have been made there.
The foolish teacher would be you, trying to corner those little children with bad math - sheesh - i thought you'd know a mirror when presented.
Anyway, I still have questions left unanswered - You have ten minutes before I sign out... else I'll come back tomorrow with the School governing board to asses your teaching methods,
Savvy?
Scimi
EDIT: Serenity you idiot - you fell into his lame bait n switch lol grow a brain fella. And understand that God does not speak to mere mortals unless they be Prophets and Messengers - the fact you entertained his question from yout "ahlul ray" idiotic POV, shows you to be green around the ears when it comes to Islam. You do not represent me. Or Muslims in general with opinions like that.
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
format_quote Originally Posted by Timi Scar
Where does it come from then?
That is a fair question, so I'll answer it. And then I'll go back to ignoring your trolling.
What I call "morality" stems from our senses of fairness and empathy, which evolved in us due our being a social and cooperative species. We can see the same in other such social species such as dogs, dolphins, and monkeys. From there it is shaped by society and mixed up with social norms and other human tendencies, some of them good and some not so much, such as authoritarianism and tribalism to form what you call "morality". That then sometimes gets codified into "holy books" of religions. And that is what you are actually working from.... thinking it comes from a magic book created by an imaginary celestial dictator.
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;
Obedience to power is not morality. Morality is doing what is right NO MATTER what you are told. And obedience is doing what you are told NO MATTER what is right. It genuinely scares me when people can't tell the two apart.
Thousands of troops blindly obeyed George Bush, when they invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, men women and children died. Bomber pilots must know innocent people will die, yet they blindly follow orders.
Why do you keep singling out 9/11, there have been around 350,000 gun deaths in America since 9/11. We have allowed around a hundred million children to die needlessly of grinding poverty, preventable disease and starvation since 9/11. This has nothing to do with mindlessly following orders, this has more to do with self interest and not caring for others. Self interest is far more dangerous than blindly following orders.
In the spirit of praying for justice for the poor and oppressed.
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Why do you keep singling out 9/11, there have been around 350,000 gun deaths in America since 9/11. We have allowed around a hundred million children to die needlessly of grinding poverty, preventable disease and starvation since 9/11.
And all you need to do to excuse it all and drop all empathy and effort to do anything about any of that, is to decide that God decreed it this way, and that it is his mysterious plan, that must have a higher purpose. Just because it looks horrible and immoral, doesn't mean that it is, if you have decided that God knows better and must have some moral purpose for it all. How is that line of thinking any different than Serenity above who said he would kill his brother if God wanted him to? How is it in any way moral?
It isn't moral. It is a wholesale farming out of moral decision making and judgment to a perceived authority figure. If you allow your blind obedience to authority override your sense of empathy, you have shoved aside your ability to actually care about any of what you write about above. I am glad that you yourself don't do that. Many religious folks don't do that. You interpret your scripture through the lens of your own moral compass. But there are people who do shove it aside in favour of blind obedience, and that is what I have referred to above.
I may be wrong, Eric, but I do not view you as somebody who would go on a killing spree if you somehow became convinced that God asked you to, and I don't see you as Jephthah or Abraham, who would kill your kid for God as an obedience test. Am i wrong? Would you kill your brother for God? Do you equate morality with obedience to power?
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 06-22-2016 at 06:14 AM.
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
(In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Why would I believe him? Or more to the point, why would I believe somebody who claims this for him, since he doesn't actually speak for himself, but through so-called "prophet" messengers.
For me, any question that begins with why must go back to self because the question began with you and so the answer must lie with you. It goes back to the hadith (prophetic tradition) that holds, “Whosoever knows himself knows his Lord.” Every prophet or messenger of God came with a miracle to prove the claim that God is sending a human being as a means to deliver a message to another human being, and in this way God speaks for Himself. His Creation. His Message. So, choice of delivery is His as well.
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I suppose, but look at it from the other side. I said this kind of thinking scares me, because from my vantage point your God is imaginary and by pushing your empathy and own moral copass aside, you are abandoning morality altogether.
We just had somebody above post that they would kill their brother without question if Allah told them to. All he now needs to become a mindless murderer with no empathy for what he is doing, is to become convinced that Allah wants that. This is a perfect justification for daesh or flying planes into buildings or "sacrificing" your children (ie, the stories of Abe and Isaac or worse yet Jephthah and his daughter) or killing them because they are "possessed", or hunting "witches" or mudering homosexuals, etc. We see such things in news headlines every once in a while. It is also the thinking of an obedient nazi soldier.
I have been an atheist; so, I have already looked at it from the other side so-to-speak. So, while I understand your concern, I think it is misplaced here. Pygoscelis, you seem to believe obedience to God and morality as mutually exclusive whereas I see them as mutually inclusive of one another in terms of Islam. So, that's where our POVs diverge. It is not that I can't tell them apart; it is because I am able to tell them apart from your POV that I see them as being in complete harmony with one another in my POV.
Secondly, God has already said that Revelation has stopped and so therefore there is no reason to believe any modern person's claim that God is talking to him/her.
That said, you also seem to believe that Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) had done a moral wrong in trying to obey God when he decided to sacrifice his son for obedience to God. But that's such a literalist interpretation. What I understand from the task with which God tasked Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) is to see whether Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) is owner or owned of the world. See, when you own the latest model car or have the best significant other you can imagine, do you begin to be possessed by them? Or are they that in which you feel blessed to possess but would still be okay if you didn't have them? Case in point are Wall Street executives who jump out of buildings when they can't face the stress of heavy financial loss.
Pygoscelis, look beyond the obvious: Do you really believe Daseh commit atrocities because they imagine God tells them? Have you ever talked to people of these ilk? On the Internet, I participated in a site in which I spoke to a self-confessed Daesh member and also the few persons who openly supported Daesh in the vain hope of talking sense into them. And when you talk to these people, you'll find that beyond the veneer of religious words lays honest-to-God raging anger. Anger in Islamic scripture is regarded as the root of evil and satanic, and these people are angry, too angry to care about right or wrong. I provided an entire list of Islamic scholars which clearly and unequivocally condemned Daesh with specific religious justifications and in the end these specific persons were still too angry to care. I provided quotes from Quran and ahadith (prophetic traditions) and even scholars' words again to no avail. Despite what people may say, the root of Daesh's existence is not religion but political anger at the atrocities that have been happening in the Middle East for which they blame many countries in the Western Hemisphere.
Pygoscelis, I had sometime back watched a video online about a man that was on Al-Jazeera talking about how he used to be an extremist but changed and how he disagreed with Osama Bin Laden's ideological stance then about flying into the building. Again, why do you think 9/11 happened? Because of religion? No. It happened because Osama Bin Laden believed that the only way to drive out the Western nations' bases off their land was to commit this atrocity. These people feel like they are struggling against imperialism and therefore they don't care who dies in that struggle because they feel their struggle is legitimate. Religion is just a cloak through which to channel anger at what has felt to them invasion of their land.
Islam is against extremism, but extremists don't care about that at all because they can use minority opinions of Islamic scholars of centuries past in regards to the subject of warfare and say that even if this is a minority opinion that it is okay to use because they believe themselves to be in warfare and then say that war cannot be held hostage to Islamic ethics or rules because the "other side" doesn't feel bound to rules or declared warfare.
What I'm trying to tell you is that I don't see obedience to God in Islam as the reason that atrocities happen; I see people, Daesh and 9/11 perpetrators, following their own logic and morals and then calling it the religion of Islam at the root of how these things happen. What these people will tell you is that they are defending their land and their people and therefore they are being moral. What Islam will tell you is that these people are following their wayward and evil desires for dominance. You think that morality can come from human beings, but I don't think it ever will and I see morality that stems from human beings as differing from one person to another and therefore being disastrous.
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Obedience to power is not morality. Morality is doing what is right NO MATTER what you are told. And obedience is doing what you are told NO MATTER what is right.
I agree with you here. But that doesn't mean that I equate obedience to God as possibly being immoral in certain situations. I believe that obedience to God in the context of Islam is inherently moral always and therefore there is no disharmony between the two as seen by me.
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
I agree with you here. But that doesn't mean that I equate obedience to God as possibly being immoral in certain situations. I believe that obedience to God in the context of Islam is inherently moral always and therefore there is no disharmony between the two as seen by me.
This! Allah is inherently just and merciful, as I said that means His every commandment has justice and mercy in it for us. Obedience to Him is to behave morally, the two go hand in hand.
Morals which comes from humans and their logic are not set in stone, they are fluid and change according to time, culture, place. What might be accepted in a specific time or place would be unacceptable in another - they are not permanent and are largely influenced by society or culture. Morals from God are permanent and don't change according to people's culture or society.
As far as terrorists go, there are people who will behave immorally in every religion, culture or society. It doesn't mean they represent the group they come from or their laws of conduct. If someone breaks the rules in a certain country, it doesn't mean that country's specific laws are wrong or immoral - it just means that person twisted them or completely disregarded them and they act like this. The same can be said for such terrorists.
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;
It isn't moral. It is a wholesale farming out of moral decision making and judgment to a perceived authority figure. If you allow your blind obedience to authority override your sense of empathy, you have shoved aside your ability to actually care about any of what you write about above. I am glad that you yourself don't do that.
I strive to base my moral judgement on the two greatest commandments, to love God, and to love my neighbours as I love myself. All the law of God hangs and depends on these two commandments, I can do nothing greater. I believe Jesus is the biggest critic of religious people, he gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan to explain the greatest commandments. The religious priest and Levite are made out to be the bad guys, and the Samaritan who was probably on a par with atheists, turns out to be the good guy.
We are asked to love and pray for our enemies, I include this in my moral compass.
I may be wrong, Eric, but I do not view you as somebody who would go on a killing spree if you somehow became convinced that God asked you to,
I would rather help people than harm them, and as I have said before, I have done about fifteen hundred hours of voluntary work for the people who gave me the sack.
and I don't see you as Abraham, who would kill your kid for God as an obedience test.
Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son, (his only true son) but Abraham had had a number of encounters with angels and with God, so Abraham had seen the power of God. Abraham had also been told that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars in the sky, so he just trusted in God to be true to his word, and he had faith that his son would not die, or would come back to life.
God had great plans for Abraham, I cannot see God asking the same again.
Am i wrong? Would you kill your brother for God? Do you equate morality with obedience to power?
Jesus said, love one another as I have loved you, by this will all men know that you are my disciples.
Pygoscelis, I know we differ, but people can and do live a moral life through faith in God.
May God bless you and those you lave and care for.
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I may be wrong, Eric, but I do not view you as somebody who would go on a killing spree if you somehow became convinced that God asked you to...[/snip]
If anyone is hearing voices, they are in dire need of a psychiatrist in this modern age. And from what I make of you entertaining such a notion, I would say that someone would be you. Which nuthouse did you escape from?
Re: Is it ok to admit that something in Islam makes no sense to you?
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
What I call "morality" stems from our senses of fairness and empathy, which evolved in us due our being a social and cooperative species. We can see the same in other such social species such as dogs, dolphins, and monkeys. From there it is shaped by society and mixed up with social norms and other human tendencies, some of them good and some not so much, such as authoritarianism and tribalism to form what you call "morality". That then sometimes gets codified into "holy books" of religions. And that is what you are actually working from.... thinking it comes from a magic book created by an imaginary celestial dictator.
You're wrong. Humans don't have innate empathy. We don't grow up empathetic. Empathy is a learned trait. Our morality stems from religion.
In animals, it could very well be that their empathy is innate because it might be one of the foundations for their herds/groups. It's a means of their survival especially if they are social creatures. However the empathy seen in animals is still very much a mystery because it's not observed in all animals. Reptiles for example don't show as much emotion as apes do. Reptiles guard their young, but that's not because of morality, it's cuz it's their nature. They'll also eat their own young.
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I had no ideas airplanes were mentioned in the Qur'an, 14 centuries ago
knows best. 
(In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)
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