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  1. #1
    Paul Williams's Avatar
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    Please help with Christan arguments

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    Salam, a Christian emailed me these two points about Jesus, the Qur'an and the Bible. Could you help with a response?

    The Old Testament in the Bible was the Scripture of the Jews at the time of Jesus and for hundreds of years before Him. And Jesus, according to the records of His disciples in the Gospels, affirmed these very scriptures as God’s scriptures for the Jews (and Christians).

    There never was a single book that Jesus delivered to His disciples, or one that they heard Him recite and that they wrote down. The very word ‘Gospel’ originally was the general word for Good News. And Jesus’ disciples used it for the Good News concerning the death and resurrection of Jesus defeating Satan and securing salvation. It was only in the second century AD that it came to be used and accepted as the title for a book, and then it was for books about Jesus’ ministry as the Messiah- they were biographical accounts of Jesus’ ministry rather than books that asserted to be scripture delivered from heaven. That the Qur’an presents Jesus coming with a book is simply not historically accurate, and no amount of historical revisionism can make it that way. Even the earliest heretical Christian groups used edited versions of the canonical Gospels for their scriptures, not some other book from Jesus. (Examples: the Ebionites: Matthew's Gospel; Marcionites: Luke's Gospel)

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    Ansar Al-'Adl's Avatar
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    Re: Please help with Christan arguments

    Dr. Ali Ataie:
    Christians often ask us: “If you don’t believe in the four Gospels of the New Testament, then
    where is the ‘true Gospel’ that the Qur’an speaks of?” This is not an easily answered question. It
    is certainly true that we do not affirm that the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the
    words of God -- They are not even the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. History teaches
    us that these books were anonymous until the 180 CE at which time they were pseudonymously
    ascribed to two disciples of Christ, a student of Peter, and a missionary partner of Paul.

    These so-called “Gospels” were written many decades after the ascension of Christ (between 68
    CE - 110 CE), in a language foreign to Jesus himself who spoke Syriac, by four men who never
    claim to be writing while inspired by the Holy Ghost. The oldest New Testament manuscripts on
    earth, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, were not codified until 350-375 CE.

    It is also a fact that all four canonical gospels were composed after the Apostle Paul had penned
    all fourteen of his letters and epistles to the various European churches and were widely in
    circulation in the Greco-Roman world (Many scholars contend that only seven letters are
    genuinely from Paul while the others are pseudonymous). Although there is still a lot of useful
    material preserved in the four canonical gospels for us to reconstruct the original Gospel of Jesus,
    we must remember that despite this fact, all four accounts are heavily influenced by Pauline
    doctrine and Hellenistic elements. Paul’s revolutionary view of the death and resurrection of the
    Jewish Messiah, for instance, as atonement for the sins of mankind is apparent even as early as
    Mark’s Gospel: “The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a
    ransom for many” (Mark 10:45).

    Even with this said, much of the actual recorded words of Christ in the New Testament gospels
    horrendously contradict statements made by Paul in his writings (See Chapter 3 of the book “In
    Defense of Islam” on Voiceforislam.com). Alas, the quest for a Gospel of Jesus Christ that either
    predates Paul or was written concurrently with his letters continues.

    Certainly Muslims believe in the Injil-e-‘Isa, or the Gospel according to Jesus as being the true
    Word of God Almighty. However, this Gospel is not the subjective biographical accounts of the
    four evangelists as recorded in the New Testament. You can think of these gospels (notice the
    small “g”) as being four theologically motivated interpretations of the one true Gospel, which so
    far has not shown up on earth in writing. The Gospel of Jesus was a spoken message that God
    sent to the Children of Israel as light and guidance. The synoptic authors tell us:

    • “And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and
    preaching the gospel of the kingdom...” (Matthew 9:35).

    • “Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of
    the kingdom of God” (Mark 1:14.).

    • “And it came to pass, [that] on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple,
    and preached the gospel...” (Luke 20:1).

    THIS is the Gospel that Muslims believe was truly sent down from above; the teachings of Christ
    as oppose to the meaning of his (apparent) death. (Gospel of Jesus)
    Please help with Christan arguments

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

  4. #3
    Paul Williams's Avatar
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    Re: Please help with Christan arguments

    thank you for all that information

    Re:The Old Testament in the Bible was the Scripture of the Jews at the time of Jesus and for hundreds of years before Him. And Jesus, according to the records of His disciples in the Gospels, affirmed these very scriptures as God’s scriptures for the Jews (and Christians).

    I can't find anything that addresses this point - can u help?

  5. #4
    afriend's Avatar
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    Re: Please help with Christan arguments

    Well, I mean the bible was written something like 60 years [40-80 years I'm thinking :confused:] after his so called 'crucifixion'.......So how can that be right/unbiased

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    Re: Please help with Christan arguments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl View Post
    Dr. Ali Ataie:in a language foreign to Jesus himself who spoke Syriac
    - He spoke Armaic
    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl View Post
    The oldest New Testament manuscripts on
    earth, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, were not codified until 350-375 CE.
    - oldest known manuscript of New Testamen is so called P52 dated 100-150AD. It just a small papyrus with part of Gospel of John. Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus are the oldest manuscriptes of whole NT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iqram View Post
    Well, I mean the bible was written something like 60 years [40-80 years I'm thinking :confused:] after his so called 'crucifixion'.......
    not the most exact statment. Old Testament was written befor Jesus death (or if you prefer: "death"). Oldest Paul Letters are dated early 50's so it's something like 20 years after crucifixion (or "crucifixion")
    n.
    Please help with Christan arguments

    The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.

  8. #6
    Umar001's Avatar
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    Re: Please help with Christan arguments

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Williams View Post
    thank you for all that information

    Re:The Old Testament in the Bible was the Scripture of the Jews at the time of Jesus and for hundreds of years before Him. And Jesus, according to the records of His disciples in the Gospels, affirmed these very scriptures as God’s scriptures for the Jews (and Christians).

    I can't find anything that addresses this point - can u help?

    Whose Disciples, well first ask the brother to show you that Jesus' disciples wrote the Gospels.

    If he keeps saying Jesus' Disciples said this and done that, ask him, show me where you can read about his Disciples, and specificly ask about the 12 disciples.

    Because if he knows his Christianity then he can say Disciples meaning anyone who followed Jesus, I have people say that to me before.

    Also Islamicly, we are told that Jesus peace be upon him was given knowledge of the Torah.

    We read inthe translated meaning of the Quran according to Yusuf Ali in Surah 5 ayah 46:

    YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
    Now Jesus peace be upon him could have confirmed what was before, just like the Quran confirms what was before, but does the QUran say we should follow what was before? or that what was before is still intact? Similarly just because Jesus confirmed what was before it doent mean it was still the same or that it was for them to follow.

    I hope that makes sense this is my personal view and please read more on the topic.
    Please help with Christan arguments

    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

  9. #7
    Goku's Avatar
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    Re: Please help with Christan arguments

    Brother, The Bible has been changed and edited a lot in the centuries, a Biblical scholar proved that in his book: Misquoting Jesus, the story behind who changed the New Testament and why:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0...teway&v=glance
    Please help with Christan arguments

    "Were they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators?
    Or did they create the heavens and the earth?
    Nay, they have no firm belief.”
    [Holy Qur'an: 52:35-36]


    Islam-A Way of Life ordained by God.

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    Isa Abdullah's Avatar
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    Re: Please help with Christan arguments

    bismillah

    I actually have a number of his books. They are very good, indeed.
    Please help with Christan arguments

    "Say: He is Allah,
    The One and Only.
    "Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
    "He begets not, nor is He begotten.
    And there is none like unto Him."
    [Al-Qur’an 112:1-4]

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    Janissary's Avatar
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    Re: Please help with Christan arguments

    Paul Williams,

    Does the Quran ever refer to the injeel as an actual, physical book? I've always had the impression that "injeel" referred to the revelation he got.

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    `Abd al-Azeez's Avatar
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    Re: Please help with Christan arguments

    Quote Originally Posted by Janissary View Post
    Paul Williams,

    Does the Quran ever refer to the injeel as an actual, physical book? I've always had the impression that "injeel" referred to the revelation he got.
    Yeah, the injeel in the Quran is the revelation of God to Isa (pbuh) , what we have is a series of biographies of Isa (pbuh) by his so called “disciples”, its amazing how Christians choose those 4 out of the hundreds of narratives about his life.

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