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    The Bible not corrupted?

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    On another forum I go on occasionally a Christian on there stated that the Qur'an does not say the bible has been corrupted, and thus no reason for Islam. Can some one give me information as to where it is stated the Bible has been corrupted. Thank you


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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    Assalamu alaikum.

    First you must learn when to debate and when to call it off. You have to be careful when debating or discussing and choose your word carefully.

    Here is an excerpt from Islamonline: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1123996016232

    Check the link for other useful links on bottom of the page.


    Thank you for your important question.

    The answer is simple, but unfortunately widely unrecognized by Christians and - more so - by Muslims. Let us first ask:

    “Is the current Christian Bible really the word of God?”

    The Bible is a huge collection of “human” writings, 38 (+9 disputed) books comprising the Old Testament and 20 (+7 disputed) books of the New Testament. The Old Testament assortment includes books of history, proverbs, myths, legislation …etc, representing the popular literature of the Israelites. They were composed by many scribes, several centuries after the Prophet Moses, peace be upon him.

    Similarly, the New Testament embodies the Gospels, four different biographies of the Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, written by Matthews, Mark, Luke and John, whose identities are widely disputed. In addition, the New Testament contains the epistles of Paul, Peter and John. This is as well as the Acts - also due to Paul or Luke - and the Visions of John.

    So, none of the Bible books can be claimed to be the word of God. It was the Nicea Council in the fourth century after Christ, who selectively sanctified these books to be “holy”, from among hundreds of other writings of the earlier Christians. While admitting the human authorship of these books, the churches claim and teach - without proof - that these human writings were “inspired” by God.

    However, neither of the Bible authors themselves claimed, or probably even imagined that their books would ever be “holy”. Read for example:

    “Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things …, Even as they delivered them unto us …; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus ...” (Luke 1:1-4)

    “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.” (Matthews 1:1)

    “The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach.” (Acts 1:1)

    “These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness …” (Deuteronomy1:1)

    “Now after the death of Moses, the servant of the Lord, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Joshua the son of Nun …” (Joshua 1:1)

    “Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel …” (1 Judges 1:1)

    “Now it came to pass in the days when the judges ruled …” (Ruth 1:1)

    “Now it came to pass after the death of Saul, when David …” (2 Samuel 1:1)

    “Now king David was old and stricken in years ...” (1 Kings 1:1)

    “Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia …” (Ezra 1:1)

    “Now it came to pass in the days of Ahasuerus …” (Esther 1:1)

    “Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year …” (Ezkiel 1:1)

    Could any of these books be words of God, or rather typical human anecdotes and historical accounts?

    Add to these facts the countless contradictions and obvious mistakes in the Bible text. As few examples, compare the following pairs:

    “And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.” (2 Samuel:24:1V)

    Please compare with:

    “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (1Chr 21:1)

    Also read:

    “Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.” (2 Samuel 6:23)

    Please compare with:

    “But the king took …; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for …” (2 Samuel 21:8)

    Then read:

    “These be the names of the mighty men whom David had: … he lift up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time.” (2 Samuel 23:8)

    Compare with:

    “And this is the number of the mighty men whom David had: … he lifted up his spear against three hundred slain by him at one time. (1 Chronicles 11:11)

    Also read:

    “But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain of the host.” (1 Chronicles 19:18)

    Compare with:

    “And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and Samuelote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there. (2 Samuel 10:18)

    Further, no rational mind could accept the false charges and shameless references to the great prophets, peace and blessings be upon them all, such as:

    Noah: getting drunk and naked in front of his sons. See Genesis 9: 20-24.

    Aaron: making a golden calf to worship. See Exodus 32: 3-4.

    Solomon: worshiping false gods, to please his large harem. See 1 Kings 11: 9-10.

    David: committing adultery. See 2 Samuel 11: 4-5.

    Lot: committing incest with his two daughters. See Genesis 19: 31-36.
    Could such texts be inspired by God!

    It can thus be concluded that the available Bible has nothing to do with the original Injeel of Jesus or Torah of Moses, both of which have disappeared, except in as much as traces of their texts might be part of the few sayings attributed to Moses and Jesus in the Bible. Still, it is difficult to decide which of these sayings are divine revelations and which are the teachings of the respective prophet.

    Hence, it is an over-simplification to say that the available Bible is the word of God, corrupted by Man. Rather, it is almost A-Z a human text. Why then should not God allow the corruption of what His creatures invented?

    Allah says in the Qur’an what means:
    *{So woe to [the ones] who write the Book with their hands; thereafter they say, “This is from [the providence of] Allah.” That they may trade it for a little price; So, woe to those for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they have earned.}* (Al-Baqarah 2: 79)

    *{And who is more unjust than he who has fabricated against Allah a lie, or has said: “to me it has been revealed” and nothing has been revealed to him. And who has said: “I will send down the like of what Allah has sent down.”}*(Al-An`am 6: 93)


    I hope my answer is satisfactory. Thank you again for your question and please keep in touch.
    The Bible not corrupted?

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    Tell us what he says, better yet, invite him here.
    The Bible not corrupted?

    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    ..........Both the Bible and the Qur’aan claim to be the word of G-d. However both “revelations” contradict each other at nearly every point. For example the Bible teaches that G-d consists of three different personalities whilst the Qur’aan maintains that G-d is one.
    The Bible teaches that Jesus was crucified whilst the Qur’aan teaches Jesus never died not was he killed. One of these two books is lying, but which? How can we find out which one is false and which one is truth?

    ..........If we had two books, book number one and book number two and book number one said that “Satan is an evil person and he must be rejected,” then, on the other hand book number two which said “Satan is a good, truthful being.” We already know that Satan is an enemy of G-d, so which one would be more logical to believe. Book number one that says Satan is an evil reject, or book number two which says Satan is a truthful blessed soul. This is where the science of logical reason comes into play.

    Firstly let us examine the Qur’aan. The Qur’aan says in Sura an-Nahl (The Bee) verse 98:


    “When you recite the Qur’aan, seek refuge in G-d from the rejected Satan, indeed he has no power over those who believe…”


    ..........It is clear from this verse in the Qur’aan that the Muslims are commanded to seek refuge in G-d from Satan before any commencement of reading the Qur’aan. I should imagine that Satan loves to be praised, if the Qur’aan was indeed a scripture from Satan, no such command would appear.

    ..........The Qur’aan goes further to even say that Satan is the greatest enemy to man (Qur'aan S.7:22 and S.12:5 and S.43:62) Therefore, given the facts, it is impossible for the Qur’aan to be from Satan and can be from no other than G-d Himself.

    ..........Secondly let us now analyse the Bible. We are told in the New Testament, Titus 1:2, that G-d can not lie, however, we find in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 That G-d deludes to people to believe deceit. Even Prophet Jeremiah complains of being deceived (Jeremiah 20:7).

    ..........Furthermore, according to the Bible G-d lies to Adam by telling him that he will die the very day he eats the fruit, however, when Adam ate from the tree he did not day in that day. In fact Adam died much later having lived nine hundred and thirty years according to Genesis 5:5.

    ..........Moreover, according to the Bible, Satan tells the truth when he told Eve “you shall surely not die… but you will be as gods, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:4-5). According to the Qur’aan Satan is portrayed as the ultimate deceiver (Qur’aan S.4:120; S.14:22; 17:64) whilst Allaah, the true universal G-d is upheld as the truthful one (Qur’aan S.4:122).

    ..........It is apparent from the evidence that the Bible and the Qur’aan contradict each other. Should we believe in a G-d that lies and a truthful Satan or a truthful G-d that rejects Satan as a outright liar? Should we follow a book that claims Satan is the G-d of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4) or Allaah the true universal G-d, Lord of the universe? (Qur’aan S.1:1).
    The Bible not corrupted?

    A person with personal hatred in the heart will argue, however the one who questions his sincerity will reason.

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    Quote Originally Posted by New_Muslim View Post


    On another forum I go on occasionally a Christian on there stated that the Qur'an does not say the bible has been corrupted, and thus no reason for Islam. Can some one give me information as to where it is stated the Bible has been corrupted. Thank you

    While I disagree with some of the assertions by those before me in this thread, and though I think they are major errors regarding a proper understanding of the Bible, as to your question those differences really are irrelvant.

    The Bible does differ dramatically from the Qu'ran, so that as a point of faith it is not possible to accept them both as the word of God, for they contradict each other on several significant occassions. Thus, if one accepts that the Qu'ran is indeed the inspired word of God revealed to Muhammed (pbuh), then one cannot hold that the Bible is without corruption. It must be. For if the Bible is uncorrupted and is in fact entirely true, then the Qu'ran must certainly be false at those places where it disagrees with the Bible.

    This is a situation where it is either one or the other, it cannot be both that are the word of God. Now, if some of our athiest friends get on this thread, they might suggest that neither is true. But no one can logically hold that both are true. So, the Qu'ran does not have to actually say that the Bible is corrupted. It is a corrollary of accepting the incorruptible nature of the Qu'ran that all books that disagree with it must be in error.

    Of course, I hold that the premise of the divine nature of the Qu'ran is false to begin with. I thinkit is probably just as human of a book as it has been suggested that the Bible is. I am not saying that Mohammed was not necessarily a prophet. But I suspect there was a lot more human agency involved than would be acceptable to believe within the Islamic community.

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?



    a religion in which the priests are worshipped and these priests are the ones who make that which is unlawful lawful such as pigs. How are they worshipped? because they are given that authority by the christian people to change the commandments of God, thus making them a partner to God. Only Allaah swt has the right to deem halal and haram !

    in this same manner the priests changed the bible and many people confess that much of it is not Gods or even Jesus's words rather it is the saints and priests words !

    if im incorrect please forgive me !
    The Bible not corrupted?

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    My tears testify that i have a heart
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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    Quote Originally Posted by New_Muslim View Post


    On another forum I go on occasionally a Christian on there stated that the Qur'an does not say the bible has been corrupted, and thus no reason for Islam. Can some one give me information as to where it is stated the Bible has been corrupted. Thank you

    I think if everyone should read a book called "Myths and Secrets" by Barbara G. Walker. It's a encyclopedia of ancient religious history. This book was written back in 1983, meaning long before Internet was around to try an twist the minds of people like ourselves.

    The book was awesomely researched for 20 years before published. It's a scholar's goldmine of history of the Church, and Bible. Reseaching religous history will really surprise you....

    Take care...
    Last edited by Iwant2no2; 12-14-2006 at 10:29 PM.

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    The bible had been edited many times hard to know.

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    Oh I just realised, the Qu'ran says it in Surah 2:79 there are articles on this on the refutation page!
    The Bible not corrupted?

    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

    Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

    Listen to the holy Quran---the Final Testament
    Recitation by Shiekh Saad Al-Ghamdhi of Saudi Arabia
    http://www.islamworld.net/fathiha.au

    whole Quran recitation: http://quran.jalisi.com

    &&&

    Learn about Bible & Quran from our 2 revert brothers ( ex-Christian missionaries )




    http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible


    "Who Wrote the Bible" - (excerpts from book by the same title)
    Jewish Scholar of Old Testament - Richard E. Friedman



    Click "Bible Contradictions?" - Are There Contradictions - Why? Jim Meritt
    Click Secret Gospel of Mark(?) Unbelieveable? - But it's true - Bible Scholars Confirm it!


    Click Muhammad(?) in the Bible? Old Testament says "makhmaddim" & New Testament says "paravklhto" (comforter) Check it out for yourself" [still in progress -more coming]



    Click "Beginnings" (How Did the Bible Come About?) [still in progress -more coming, God Willing]
    Click "How Did 1 God - Become 3?" Arianism Vs. Council of Nicaea (Church History)


    By Brother John Raymond, (A Catholic Priest)


    Click "Council of Nicaea - Trinity Accepted in 325 AD"
    - From Catholic Church website

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    Muslim Woman, thank you for the listing above. In reading it I find it much easier to see where many of the objections of some on this board come from. It was very useful for helping me to understand how others are thinking.

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    Salaam/peace to u & all


    Quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    Muslim Woman, thank you for the listing above. In reading it I find it much easier to see where many of the objections of some on this board come from. It was very useful for helping me to understand how others are thinking.

    u may read this book....interesting

    THE TRUE MESSAGE OF JESUS CHRIST

    BY

    DR. BILAL PHILIPS

    (St. David’s College, University of Wales,U.K.)



    http://www.al-sunnah.com/true_message_of_jesus.htm

    Shock survey

    Of Anglican bishops



    LONDON: More than half of England’s Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today.

    The poll of 31 of England’s 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.


    Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as “God’s supreme agent”. One declined to give a definite opinion.

    The poll was carried out by London Weekend Television’s weekly religion show, Credo.



    “DAILY NEWS” 25/6/84

    &&&&
    The Bible not corrupted?

    Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172

    recitation:http://quran.jalisi.com

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    Quote Originally Posted by New_Muslim View Post


    On another forum I go on occasionally a Christian on there stated that the Qur'an does not say the bible has been corrupted, ........




    I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

    Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


    &&&
    pl. visit links to read the full answers.


    Has the Bible Been Tampered With?

    related link:

    Q. Why Do Muslims Quote from the Bible although It Is Corrupted?




    ........ Bible contains two main sections: the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is recognized by Jews and Christians both.


    Jews calls it the Hebrew Bible or TANAK. But their Bible has 24 books and some books have two parts thus a total of 39 books. Protestants also have 39 books but in a different order.




    The same Old Testament of Catholics has 46 books, while Eastern Orthodox Christians have 51 books in their Old Testament. Jewish version of the Bible is based on the Hebrew Masoretic text while Christians generally use the Greek (Septuagint) and Latin (Vulgate) versions as the basis of their Old Testaments. Each group also has variations in the texts of their books as well as in the number of verses.

    The New Testament is accepted by Christians only.




    It has 27 books: four Gospels and then other books and letters of various writers known as apostles. But Catholics add some verses in the Gospels that are not accepted by the Protestants. The Catholics as well as the Eastern Orthodox Christians accept some books that are not accepted by the Protestants.

    As far as the ancient manuscripts of the Bible are concerned, it is known to the Biblical scholars that most of the manuscripts came from the fourth century CE down.



    The manuscripts that are discovered are mostly partial and their texts differ from each other considerably.


    M. M. Parvis in the Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (vol. 4, pp. 594-595) says, "The New Testament is now known, in whole or in part, in nearly five thousand Greek manuscripts alone.

    Every one of these handwritten copies differ from the other one… It has been estimated that these manuscripts and quotations differ among themselves between 150,000 and 250,000 times. The actual figure is, perhaps, much higher.




    A study of 150 Greek manuscripts of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings… It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the New Testament in which the manuscripts' tradition is wholly uniform."



    You can also read:

    Why Muslims Believe in the Bible

    Why Do Muslims Quote from the Bible although It Is Corrupted?

    Is the Bible the Word of God?

    What Islam says about the Bible

    &&&&&
    The Bible not corrupted?

    Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172

    recitation:http://quran.jalisi.com

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    I would answer all these misquoted, mistranslated, taken out of context lies, that many readers who have no knowledge on their hands about Judaism or anything pertaining to the Torah/Tanakh think are facts. But in reality we both know that it would not change anything.

    If you want to believe that the Torah is corrupted, me proving your utterly wrong, will not tamper with your faith. No amount of proof will convince anyone of you, so why wate around 2 to 3 hours of my time?
    The Bible not corrupted?

    משה בן מימון

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    Quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas View Post
    I would answer all these misquoted, mistranslated, taken out of context lies, that many readers who have no knowledge on their hands about Judaism or anything pertaining to the Torah/Tanakh think are facts. But in reality we both know that it would not change anything.

    If you want to believe that the Torah is corrupted, me proving your utterly wrong, will not tamper with your faith. No amount of proof will convince anyone of you, so why wate around 2 to 3 hours of my time?
    It would be interesting to see your view.

    But its upto you.
    The Bible not corrupted?

    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    Salaam/peace;

    Quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas View Post
    ......
    If you want to believe that the Torah is corrupted, me proving your utterly wrong, will not tamper with your faith. No amount of proof will convince anyone of you, so why wate around 2 to 3 hours of my time?
    It's not that i will change my faith...Insha Allah no , never but i want to know about other holy books. So, pl. don't think that it will waste ur time.....i m sure it will be interesting to discuss about talmud. So, shall we ask ?
    The Bible not corrupted?

    Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172

    recitation:http://quran.jalisi.com

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    IQ. Why Do Muslims Quote from the Bible although It Is Corrupted?
    Your post only gave reasons you think the Bible is corruptued, it did not at all address WHY Muslims quote from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas View Post
    If you want to believe that the Torah is corrupted, me proving your utterly wrong, will not tamper with your faith. No amount of proof will convince anyone of you, so why wate around 2 to 3 hours of my time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    It would be interesting to see your view.

    But its upto you.
    I agree it would be interesting to see Izak's view. However, I respect his right to decide what is and is not worthy of his time. I do have a question regarding the concept of corruption?



    Which is the corruption?

    1) To tell the story of Abraham's willingness to sacrifce his son Isaac, but to have a few of the texts which tell this story "disagree" with each other regarding the vowel points or the whether when you translate it into English a word should carry the article "a" vs. the article "the". Is that corruption?

    or

    2) To tell basically the same story, have every existing copy of that story identical to each other, but tell the story as if it were Ishmael that Abraham was to sacrifice? Is that the corruption?


    I think the change from truth to fiction is the bigger corruption.
    Obviously we disagree as to which is truth and which is fiction.
    Last edited by Grace Seeker; 12-17-2006 at 01:54 PM.

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    Muslim Woman's Avatar
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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    Salaam/peace;


    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    Salaam/peace;



    It's not that i will change my faith...Insha Allah no , never but i want to know about other holy books. So, pl. don't think that it will waste ur time.....i m sure it will be interesting to discuss about talmud. So, shall we ask ?


    Ok, let me start asking questions....is that ok ?

    I hope, it won't take u many hours to reply.



    1. Duet 13:13-17 Certain men....saying , Let us go and serve other gods.....shalt surely smite the inhabitansts of the city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly......and the cattle ''

    ---regarding Duet , do Jews & Christians need to kill all citizens including kids ? Why kill cattle ?????


    2. Can Jews marry 3 years old girl ?


    3. Ismail (p) was First born son of Prophet Abraham (p). So, Why Jews believe Palestine is only for them & Muslims have no right ?
    Last edited by Muslim Woman; 12-19-2006 at 08:59 AM. Reason: mention the prayer after Ismail (p)
    The Bible not corrupted?

    Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172

    recitation:http://quran.jalisi.com

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    Salaam;

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    Your post only gave reasons you think the Bible is corruptued, it did not at all address WHY Muslims quote from it.



    I agree it would be interesting to see Izak's view. However, I respect his right to decide what is and is not worthy of his time. I do have a question regarding the concept of corruption?



    Which is the corruption?

    1) To tell the story of Abraham's willingness to sacrifce his son Isaac, but to have a few of the texts which tell this story "disagree" with each other regarding the vowel points or the whether when you translate it into English a word should carry the article "a" vs. the article "the". Is that corruption?

    or

    2) To tell basically the same story, have every existing copy of that story identical to each other, but tell the story as if it were Ishmael that Abraham was to sacrifice? Is that the corruption?


    I think the change from truth to fiction is the bigger corruption.
    Obviously we disagree as to which is truth and which is fiction.

    I m not sure what u mean by change from truth to fiction. What is the Truth ?

    If really Isaac (p) was the son of sacrifice , then why Jews & Christians don't celebrate /remember the holy occasion ? It's only the Muslims who all around the world remember the incident.
    The Bible not corrupted?

    Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172

    recitation:http://quran.jalisi.com

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    Re: The Bible not corrupted?

    m sure it will be interesting to discuss about talmud.
    The great Talmud has been slandered so much to be thought of as a rascist book which it is not.

    Go to this site to see every refutation to against the people who say the Talmud is rascist.

    http://t.trafficmp.com/b.t/i18723/94735808/
    The Bible not corrupted?

    משה בן מימון

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