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    The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

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    The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus As An Atonement of Sin: A Study of the Hebrew Tanakh (Old Testament)


    Dr. JosephG



    Below is a reproduction of a posting from Dr. JosephG, a retired physicist and practising Jew residing in America, explaining why Jesus' death on the cross could not have been a valid sacrifice from the Jewish point of view.*

    Here is a partial list of reasons for why the death of Jesus on the cross couldn't possibly have served as a valid sacrifice - any one of these would render a sacrifice as unacceptable for the purpose of expiation of sins.

    GIVEN that, at the time of Jesus’ death, the Second Temple was still standing in Jerusalem and the Hebrew Bible was the Scripture in force, here are some of the reasons why the death of Jesus on the cross cannot be a valid sacrificial offering:

    FIRST, the Hebrew Bible requires that the sacrificial ritual be administered by a Priest (see Leviticus Chapters 1-7) – according to the accounts in the New Testament, Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers (Mt 27:35; Mk 15:24; Lk 23:33; Jn 19:18, 23).

    SECOND, the Hebrew Bible requires that the blood of the (sin) sacrifice had to be sprinkled by the Priest on the veil of the sanctuary and on the altar in the Temple (e.g., Lev 4:5-6) – there is no evidence in the New Testament that this was done.

    THIRD, the Hebrew Bible requires that the (sin) sacrifice be without any physical defects or blemishes (e.g., Lev 4:3) – according to the accounts in the New Testament, Jesus was beaten, whipped, and dragged on the ground before being crucified (Mt 26:67, 27:26, 30-31; Mk 14:65, 15:15-20; Lk 22:63; Jn 18:22, 19:1, 3). Moreover, as a Jew by birth, Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day after being born, a ritual that leaves a scar (“sign of the covenant”). According to the NT, circumcision is tantamount to mutilation (Phil 3:2, Gal 5:12).

    FOURTH, the Hebrew Bible requires that the Passover (sin) sacrifice, a male-goat, be offered on an individual (per household) basis (Num 28:22), not as a communal offering – according to the New Testament, Jesus’ death (termed a ‘sin sacrifice’) expiated the sins of mankind (Ro 6:10; He 9:12, 10:10, 10:18).

    FIFTH, the Hebrew Bible directs that the Paschal Lamb wasn’t to be offered for the removal of sins - it was a commemorative/festive offering (see also under “Fourth” above and “Sixth” below). A more appropriate time for a sin offering would have been on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement; Num 29:11 [individual sin-offering – male goat]; Lev 16:15 [communal sin-offering – male goat]).

    SIXTH, the Hebrew Bible requires that the sacrificed Paschal Lamb had to be roasted and eaten, and it’s blood used to place markings on the side-posts and lintel of the doors (Exod 12:7-8) – there is no record in the New Testament that this was, in fact, done (lest it be suggested that Christianity promotes cannibalism).

    SEVENTH, the Hebrew Bible states that the sacrificial sin offering could only atone for unintentional sins, with few notable exceptions as stated in Lev 5:1-6, 20-26 [Lev 6:1-7 in Christian Bibles] (e.g., Num 15:27-31).

    EIGHTH, the Hebrew Bible teaches that sacrifices can atone only for sins committed prior to the offering of the sacrifice; no sacrifice could ever atone for sins committed after the sacrifice was offered and, thus, no sacrifice could ever atone for people born after the sacrifice was offered (e.g., Leviticus 1-7). So, even if it were true that Jesus was some kind of super-sacrifice that atoned for all sins of all mankind, then his death could only atone for the sins committed before his death, not for any sins committed after his death by people who were born after he died.

    NINTH, the Hebrew Bible strictly forbids (human) vicarious atonement (e.g., Exod 32:31-33; Num 35:33; Deut 24:16; II Kgs 14:6; Jer 31:29 [30 in Christian Bibles]; Ezek 18:4,20; Ps 49:7).

    TENTH, the Hebrew Bible strictly prohibits human sacrifices (e.g., Lev 18:21, 24-25; Deut 18:10; Jer 7:31, 19:5; Ezek 23:37,39).

    It is simply astonishing that so many people believe what their preachers “feed” them, as well as how the New Testament writings contradict the teachings of the Hebrew Bible.
    The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    The Jewish sacrificial system was but imperfect representation of the work of Christ.

    Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers , true, but it was the High Priest who made this arrangement and it was Jesus who freely gave up his own life.

    Joh 11:49 But a certain one of them, Caiaphas being high priest of that year, said to them, You know nothing,
    Joh 11:50 nor consider that it is profitable for us that one man die for the people, and not all the nation to perish.
    Joh 11:51 But he did not say this from himself, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was about to die on behalf of the nation,

    Second, the Tabernacle and Jewish Temple, were but representive of things which exist in the Heavenlies [Exo 25:40, He 8:5 ]. Once Jesus died, he, as our High Priest offered his own blood in the Heavenly Tabernacle for the forgiveness of sins.

    Heb 9:11 But Christ having appeared as a High Priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation,
    Heb 9:12 nor through the blood of goats and of calves, but through His own blood, He entered once for all into the Holy of Holies, having procured everlasting redemption.
    Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats, and ashes of a heifer sprinkling those having been defiled, sanctifies to the purity of the flesh,
    Heb 9:14 by how much more the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God), will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God!

    Jesus death and it redemptive power, was planned in Eternity and considered "a done deal" even before the Earth was created. Thus it is available to all people of all times -

    Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. (NIV)

    The Hebrew Bible required that the (sin) sacrifice be without any physical defects or blemishes. This is just a picture that the Lamb of God, would be perfect, free of any sin or moral defects.

    Lastly, Jesus instituted the New Convenant. While something like the old this convenant offers -

    1) Better promises - He 8:7-13
    2) A better sanctuary - He 9:1-28
    3) A better sacrifice - He 10:1-18

    http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/he/he_18.htm
    Last edited by Sinner; 03-03-2005 at 07:52 AM.
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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    Thanks for your post Fasiq,
    I appreciate your attempt to clarify the issue, but it seems that you have only touched upon the points and have not dealt with them adequately.

    Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers , true, but it was the High Priest who made this arrangement and it was Jesus who freely gave up his own life.
    I'm not sure how 'freely' Jesus gave up his life.

    We all know:
    Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”–which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

    Forsaken? Doesn't sound like a glorious sacrifice.

    Also,
    Matthew 26:50-51 ...Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

    Is it to much for Jesus to let his disciples know that this was supposed to be a planned sacrifice?

    Matthew 26:55 At that time Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me.

    Why the need for the above? This whole incident doesn't make sense if this was a planned sacrifice. Why didn't Jesus say, "Yes. This was planned. Let's go. I must die for your sins." ???

    And arranging a sacrifice is NOT the same as conducting it. The sacrifice of Jesus was NOT conducted by a high priest.

    Moreover, you haven't reconciled the sevre torture Jesus underwent. This is alien to the law.

    The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    At any time, Jesus could have kept himself from being arrested. He says so himself.

    Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of those with Jesus, stretching out the hand, drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest and took off his ear.
    Mat 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword shall perish by a sword.
    Mat 26:53 Or do you think that I am not able now to call on My Father, and He will place beside Me more than twelve legions of angels?
    Mat 26:54 How then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen this way?
    Mat 26:55 In that hour, Jesus said to the crowds, Have you come out to take Me with swords and clubs, as against a plunderer? I sat with you daily teaching in the temple, and you did not lay hands on Me.
    Mat 26:56 But all this is happening that the Scriptures of the prophets may be fulfilled. Then all the disciples ran away, forsaking Him.

    The reason that Jesus was not arrested in the Temple was that the authorities were too scared to do it. If Jesus was able to heal any sick person, raise the dead to life, what would happen someone tried to arrest him? This couldn't of been a very comforting thought, who knows what would of happened. Judas told the authorites what they needed to know. During the Last Supper, Jesus was talking about his death and giving his life freely. This indicated that Jesus was prepared to die, and wouldn't resist arrest. No worry about fire from Heaven, and people dropping dead and other nasty stuff. The Jewish leadership took this as their golden opportunity to do away with someone who said things they didn't want to hear.

    >Forsaken? Doesn't sound like a glorious sacrifice.

    You forget, these were the opening lines to Psalm 22 which described the suffering Jesus underwent in great detail. The Jewish Leaders were too clever for their own good. Jesus was put to death because he claimed to be equal to God. According to Jewish law, he should of been stoned to death, but they pressured the Romans for the most horrific death possible. The Jewish leaders must of been stunned to hear the words to Psalm 22 from Jesus dying lips, for prophecy was occuring before their very eyes, and they played a part in it.

    http://www.carm.org/questions/why_forsake_me.htm

    > Moreover, you haven't reconciled the sevre torture Jesus underwent. This is alien to the law.

    The law was just a shadow of things to come, according to Christian theology, not a 100% perfect representation. According to the prophets, the Christ would be a Suffering Servant -

    Isa 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His wounds we ourselves are healed.
    Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have each one turned to his own way; and Jehovah made meet in Him the iniquity of all of us.
    Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, but He did not open His mouth. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a ewe before her shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth.
    Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from justice; and who shall consider His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living; from the transgression of My people, the stroke was to Him.
    Isa 53:9 And He appointed Him His grave with the wicked, but He was with a rich man in His death; though He had done no violence, and deceit was not in His mouth.
    Isa 53:10 But Jehovah pleased to crush Him, to make Him sick, so that If He should put His soul as a guilt offering, He shall see His seed; He shall prolong His days; and the will of Jehovah shall prosper in His hand.
    Isa 53:11 He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul; He shall be fully satisfied. By His knowledge the righteous One, My Servant, shall justify for many, and He shall bear their iniquities.
    Isa 53:12 Because of this I will divide to Him with the great, and with the strong He shall divide the spoil; because He poured out His soul to death; and He was counted with those transgressing; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for those transgressing.

    Heb 9:12 says that Jesus offered the blood he shed, as High Priest
    in the true Tabernacle which is in Heaven.
    Last edited by Sinner; 03-04-2005 at 09:06 AM.
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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    Salaam Fasiq,
    I appreciate your explanation, but I don't think you have answered the contradictions well.

    Some you haven't answered at all:
    TENTH, the Hebrew Bible strictly prohibits human sacrifices (e.g., Lev 18:21, 24-25; Deut 18:10; Jer 7:31, 19:5; Ezek 23:37,39).
    It seems to me that your only possible explanation is
    The law was just a shadow of things to come, according to Christian theology, not a 100% perfect representation.
    This explanation does not seem logical. The Law is revealed and determined by god. Christians are strongly against abrogation and claim that abrogation cannot occur in God's law.

    "God is not a man, that he should lie ; neither the son of man that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Numbers 19:23)

    The Bible contains the revealed law of God. Since the sacrifice of Christ does not conform to the law, we can discard the event as an invalid sacrifice according to GOD'S LAW.

    The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    It is true that God hated human sacrifices. If you look in the Old Testament, where God is angry because someone engaged in them, you will find that it always involved children and unwilling victims. Jesus was neither. http://www.christian-thinktank.com/sacra.html
    Having said that, the Hebrew Scriptures, early Jewish writings and the NT clearly teach that the death of the righteous had redeeming power. The Midrash reads, "Moses said to God,"will not the time come when Israel shall have neither Tabernacle nor Temple? What will happen with them then?" God answers, "I will then take one of their righteous men and keep him as a pledge on their behalf so I may pardon all their sins." (Exodus Rabbah, Terumah 35:4) In Biblical times, before a man was stoned to death for his crimes, he was asked to make a public confession for his sins. The Mishnah teaches this person was to say, "Let my death be an atonement for all my transgressions." (m. Sanhedrin 6:2). There are examples where the death of representative sinners made atonement for a nation. In Num. 25:4 God's wrath on Israel was averted when the leaders of those who rebelled against God's commandments were slain. Another case where the shedding of human blood atones:

    Num 35:33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.
    Num 35:34 Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel.

    The Bible makes a fine distinction between unlawful human sacrifices and the shedding of human blood which under special conditions atones for sins.

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    This explanation does not seem logical. The Law is revealed and determined by god. Christians are strongly against abrogation and claim that abrogation cannot occur in God's law.
    The prophet Jeremiah predicted that there would be a time when God would make a new covenant with the nation of Israel.

    "'The day will come,' says the Lord, 'when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah....But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,' says the Lord. 'I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people" (Jeremiah 31:31,33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and create a new covenant between God and His people. The old covenant was written in stone, but the new covenant is written on our hearts, made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His own blood to atone for the sins of the world. Luke 22:20 says, "After supper, [Jesus] took another cup of wine and said, 'This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you – an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you.'"

    http://www.gotquestions.org/new-covenant.html
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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    Sacrificies weren't required to atone for one's sins while the temple stood. In fact, it was only done in regards to unintentional sins. Even then, you didn't have to offer an animal. You could bring a sacrifice of flour.

    See: http://www.messiahtruth.com/atone.html

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinner
    The prophet Jeremiah predicted that there would be a time when God would make a new covenant with the nation of Israel.

    "'The day will come,' says the Lord, 'when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah....But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,' says the Lord. 'I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people" (Jeremiah 31:31,33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and create a new covenant between God and His people. The old covenant was written in stone, but the new covenant is written on our hearts, made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His own blood to atone for the sins of the world. Luke 22:20 says, "After supper, [Jesus] took another cup of wine and said, 'This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you – an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you.'"

    http://www.gotquestions.org/new-covenant.html
    Jeremiah 31 also says in the day that the "new covenant" is enacted, that:

    And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD
    Obviously, however, not everyone follows the teachings of G-d, and many Christian Missionaries use the saying "Know Jesus, Know Peace; No Jesus, No Peace" in realization of that fact. Thus, we see one example that this "New Covenant" is not in effect yet.

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus


    Welcome to the forum Yoshiyahu!

    I hope you enjoy your stay!

    The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    Peace Sinner,
    The Bible makes a fine distinction between unlawful human sacrifices and the shedding of human blood which under special conditions atones for sins.
    I don't know how you can possibly justify this statement. Judaism is very clearly against the use of human blood for atonement. And even with animals, they can only be used for the atonement of a restricted category of sins. Sacrifices are not required to atone for sins, and sacrifices must take place within a temple.

    A Jewish friend has written the following:
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJew
    What you have to understand about Isaiah's prophecies is they are about the Jewish people and not Jesus. All the suffering did occur but the Suffering Servant are the Jews who have suffered throughout time for being G-d's messengers. Why would Isaiah have written about one single man when thousands of Jews were also crucified by the Romans? Why was Jesus crucifiction any worse than anyone elses? It was not. Therefore it makes sense that Isaiah would make a prophecy about the people of Israel and not some insignificant man.

    The Christians have altered the words from Isaiah to make them appear to be referring to Jesus. Please read this article and you can see how the Hebrew does not read like the english translation does because it was not altered.

    This is in six parts and it clearly shows how the Xtians altered verses over and over again to make it look like he was referring to Jesus.

    http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53a.html
    http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53b.html
    http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53c.html
    http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53d.html
    http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53e.html
    http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53f.html
    And furthermore:
    Quote Originally Posted by Medini
    The "fore-shadowing" stuff is a bunch of nonsensical misuse of Greek Platonism that has nothing to do with Tanach.

    The idea of a man's death atoning for sins in later Jewish writings is badly misused here - a man's death ONLY can atone for his own sins not that of others (the Sanhedrin quote is not saying anything more than that). The martyrdom of the righteous can be weighed by G-d against the corporate sins of the people as whole in considering punishment agianst the people as whole. I highly doubt that the midrash cited as "Exodus Rabbah, Terumah 35:4" says what it is quoted as - perhaps Drashi can tell us, since I don't have that document available to me right now.

    Finally, the bit about the "New Covenant" is utter nonsense - Jer. 31 clearly shows that the context of this covenant, which is Torah put in our hearts and not an additional teaching (31:33), is with both Judah and Israel (31:31) after the teshuvah of both from sin and their redemption from Exile back to Eretz Israel (31:16-30). At the time of JC, there had been no such teshuvah, and all of Israel and many of Judah were in Exile. In fact, there was no identifiable house of Israel (the northern tribes) then or now. Thus, it CANNOT apply to the time of JC, but is yet to occur, and has nothing to do with JC.
    Quote Originally Posted by sophiee
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinner
    Jsus was crucified by Roman soldiers , true, but it was the High Priest who made this arrangement and it was Jesus who freely gave up his own life.
    To be a priest Jsus would have been a descendent of Aaron (Moses') brother on his father's side. He would have to have been of the tribe of Levi -- yet Xians say Jsus is of the tribe of Judah.

    Can't be both. Ergo Jsus could not have been a priest, let alone a hig priest.

    Xians like to say he was a "priest like Melchitzedek." I won't get into all the details here but Melchi (King) Tzedek (Righteous) is not a name but a "title" and the only one mentioned as being a priest in Torah was not Jewish priest and ergo could not bring a Jewish sacrifice.


    The Hebrew Bible required that the (sin) sacrifice be without any physical defects or blemishes. This is just a picture that the Lamb of G-d, would be perfect, free of any sin or moral defects.
    Nonsense. Just ask Mel Gibson, Jsus was bloodied and beaten. Not to mention that he wasn't a one year old kosher animal. And BTW G-d forbids human sacrifices.

    Lastly, Jsus instituted the New Convenant. While something like the old this convenant offers -
    Tell you Xian friend to read the Tanach. Jeremiah 31:31:

    “Behold, days are coming,” declares the L-rd, “when I will make a new covenant (bris) with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah.
    The GT takes this quote from Jeremiah and distorts it saying that J* and Xianity is the “fulfillment” of Jeremiah’s prophecy:

    In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)
    The Hebrew word “ba’altee,” means a “husband.” It in no way can be translated as “to disregard.” The GT just totally ignores the REAL of the words of Jeremiah! To be a “husband” is the precise opposite of “disregarding” someone.

    Show me where Jeremiah says the old one is obsolete. WRONG. The new covenant (really "renewed") is with us Jews (Judah and Israel). The GT distorts Jewish scripture quite a bit.

    At any time, Jesus could have kept himself from being arrested. He says so himself.
    The problem with these Xians is that they take a sentence here or a word there totally out of context. They ignore where Jeremiah clearly says that he will never "divorce" us Jews.

    Add to that they believe the GT got it right so don't double check to see if the Tanach says what the GT says it says. . .

    Amazing isn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by sophiee
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinner
    Having said that, the Hebrew Scriptures, early Jewish writings and the NT clearly teach that the death of the righteous had redeeming power. The Midrash reads, "Moses said to God,"will not the time come when Israel shall have neither Tabernacle nor Temple? What will happen with them then?"

    Midrash is ALLEGORY. It is not scripture. Midrash aggudah is used to make a moral point and is not meant to be taken literally as your Xian is attempting to use it.

    Tell him/her to read Torah:

    Exodus 32:31 Moses went back up to G-d, and he said, 'The people have committed a terrible sin by making a golden idol.

    32:32 Now, if You would, please forgive their sin. If not, You can blot me out from the book that You have written.'

    32:33 G-d replied to Moses, 'I will blot out from My book those who have sinned against Me.


    So Moses offered himself as a sacrifice. G-d turned him down.

    Tell your Xian to read the Tanach and spend less time digging through Jewish books he / she doesn't understand (like midrashim).
    What do you say, Sinner?

    The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinner
    In Num. 25:4 God's wrath on Israel was averted when the leaders of those who rebelled against God's commandments were slain.
    Gee, you mean that sinners who die are no longer siners? How long did that take you to come up with? HaShem killed all the rebels who deserved death. HaShem shall reward those who merit it, and so too will HaShem punish those who merit it...
    The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    سلام
    الله اكبر
    لا إله إلا الله
    أمّة إسرائيل حيّه
    هذا أرضي و بلدي

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    Are we going to hear a Christian response?
    The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    Sinner, we are still waiting for your response!

    Where are you?
    The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    To be a priest Jsus would have been a descendent of Aaron (Moses') brother on his father's side. He would have to have been of the tribe of Levi -- yet Xians say Jsus is of the tribe of Judah.
    There is a reason that Jesus was not from the tribe of Levi. It was not possible for a priest from Levi to be a King, or a King to be a Levi priest. Jesus could not have been King and High Priest had he been born a Levi. Jesus however is a priest of a higher order, that of Melchizedek-

    Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
    Gen 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth

    Here was priest, pre-dating the Levi Order who served as both King and Priest. Accordingly, the New Testament states that Jesus was of this order. Jesus existed before Adam, and serves as our High Priest and will assume the role of King.

    Heb 5:4 And no one takes the honor to himself, but he being called by God, even as Aaron was also.
    Heb 5:5 So also the Christ has not glorified Himself to become a high priest, but He speaking to Him, "You are My Son; today I have begotten You." Psa. 2:7
    Heb 5:6 As He also says in another place, "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek," Psa. 110:4
    Heb 5:7 who in the days of His flesh was offering both petitions and entreaties to Him being able to save Him from death, with strong crying and tears, and being heard from His godly fear;
    Heb 5:8 though being a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered
    Heb 5:9 and having been perfected, He came to be the Author of eternal salvation to all the ones obeying Him,
    Heb 5:10 having been called out by God as a High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

    "He is a priest according to the order of Melchizedek. This is shown to be a higher order than that of Levi and Aaron (Heb 5:5-11 Psa 110:4)."
    http://members.datafast.net.au/sggram/f316.htm
    Last edited by Sinner; 03-19-2005 at 06:18 AM.

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    What you have to understand about Isaiah's prophecies is they are about the Jewish people and not Jesus
    Ok, let us say this is true and see how just some of Isaiah reads by replacing 'he' and 'him' with 'Israel' or 'the Jewish people'-

    52:13 Behold, Israel (my servant) shall prosper
    he shall be exalted and lifted up,
    and shall be very high.
    52:14 As many were astonished at Israel (him);
    the Jews (his) appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
    and their (his) form beyond that of the sons of men **
    52:15 so shall Israel (he) sprinkle many nations;
    kings shall shut their mouths because of the Jews (him);
    for that which has not been told them they shall see,
    and that which they have not heard they shall understand.
    53:1 Who has believed our message?
    And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
    53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
    and like a root out of dry ground;
    Israel (he) had no form or comeliness that we should look at them (him),
    and no beauty that we should desire the Jewish people (him).
    53:3 Israel (He) was despised and rejected by men;
    a country (man) of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
    and as one from whom men hide their faces
    he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    53:4 Surely the Jewish people (he) has borne our griefs
    and carried our sorrows;
    yet we esteemed him stricken,
    smitten by God, and afflicted.
    53:5 But Israel (he) was wounded for our transgressions,
    he was bruised for our iniquities;
    upon them (him) was the chastisement that made us whole,
    and with his stripes we are healed.
    53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
    we have turned every one to his own way;
    and the LORD has laid on the Jewish people (him)
    the iniquity of us all.
    53:7 Israel (He) was oppressed, and they (he) was afflicted,
    yet the Jews (he) opened not their (his) mouth; ......

    This absurd reading shows that Isaiah must of been speaking of one person when he used 'he' and 'him', not a country or group of people.
    Last edited by Sinner; 03-19-2005 at 06:40 AM.
    1 | Likes goodwill liked this post

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    Welcome back to the discussion, sinner. Very interesting point you made.
    The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    It may sound ridiculous to you, but that doesn't change the truth:

    Isaiah 41:8-9 - (8) But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend. (9) You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called you from its farthest corners, and said to you, “you are My servant; I have chosen you and I [will] not cast you away".

    Isaiah 44:1-2,21 - (1) Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen. Thus says the L-rd your Maker, and He who formed you from the womb shall help you. (2) Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen. (21) Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for you are My servant; I have formed you; you are My servant, O Israel, you shall not be forgotten of Me.

    Isaiah 45:4 - For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, I called to you by your name

    Isaiah 49:3 - And [G-d] said to me: "you are My servant, O Israel in whom I will be glorified!"
    The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    سلام
    الله اكبر
    لا إله إلا الله
    أمّة إسرائيل حيّه
    هذا أرضي و بلدي

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    In the previous verse, Isaiah 52:13, Isaiah prophesies that, in the end, Israel will prosper and take its rightful place in G-d's plan. In Isaiah 52:14, the prophet foretells that this event will cause much surprise and astonishment among the (Gentile) nations, since they habitually looked down upon the Jewish people. Still being the narrator here and speaking for G-d, Isaiah quotes what the (Gentile) nations will be saying about Israel in their astonishment. The dismayed (Gentile) nations will see a people, thought to be disfigured and "sub-human", being exalted and successful, a people who have G-d with them and not against them (e.g., Is 52:9-10). Isaiah reassures his people, Israel, that those who had such visions of them will be stunned when they see that Israel is the one who will be exalted in the end.
    Another good quote from the Messiah Truth Organization
    The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    سلام - שלום

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    Re: The Invalidity of the Crucifixion of Jesus

    So how is Isreal going to pay for my sins?

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