Forgiveness

Assalam u Alaikum..
its so that the crime is discouraged and people don't do it again..
wassalam

format_quote Originally Posted by A sister

Assalam u Alaikum..
its so that the crime is discouraged and people don't do it again..
wassalam

I would say that the warning would discourage people frmo doing it in the first place also.



Rabi'ya:rose:

format_quote Originally Posted by POBook

Salam to all of you
Why are these people to be punished? Why are they to be punished in this fashion?

Hello POBook,

First of all, we had a long discussion about Islamic criminal law in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ariah-law.html

Allow me to quote something I posted on this topic:

2. Punishment for theft. I believe that cutting off someone's hand is barbaric. Simple as that.

A couple of points to note on the punishment of amputation for theft:
a-the punishment will not be applied if there is any doubt as to the guilt of the suspect
b-the punishment will not be applied if the value of the stolen goods is below something of great value -> determined by 'urf (customs of society)
c-the punishment will not be applied if the thief stole out of need/poverty
d-the punishment will not be applied if the goods weren't in proper storage (al-hirz) -> also determined by 'urf (customs of society)
e-the punishment will not be applied if the thief returns the goods and seeks forgiveness of the victim of the theft, before the case enters the judicial system
f-the punishment will not be applied if the culprit is not a sane adult and the crime was not committed under duress
g-the punishment will not be applied if the goods were not legally owned
h-the punishment will not be applied if it is a child stealing from parents or parents stealing from children or one spuse from another according to the opinion of all jurists except Imaam Malik.
i-the punishment will not be applied if the person is permitted to enter the place from where he stole because in such a case there is no proper custody (al-hirz)
j-according to Imaam Abu Hanifa the punishment is not applied to the non-muslim living in the muslim state, however Imaam Shafi', Imaam Maalik and Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal have said that it is.

If the theft passes these restrictions, then it recieves the hadd punishment of hand amputation. Any theft that does not meet these restrictions recieves ta'azir (discretionary punishment). In such cases the Islamic society would most likely follow case/common law by rule of precedent where like cases are treated alike.

Coming to the scenario where amputation is applied in theft, it is interesting to note the effect this has on society. I'd like to quote some parts of a discussion at a conference of the Saudi scholars:

At this point Dr. Dawalbi made a comment:

"I have been in this country for seven years", he said, "and I never saw of heard of, any amputation of the hand for stealing. This is because the crime is extremely rare. So, all that remains of that punishment is its harshness, which has made it possible for those who are tempted to steal, to keep their hands whole. Formerly, when these regions were ruled by the french-inspired Penal Code, under the Ottoman Empire, pilgrims travelling between the two Holy Cities - Mecca and Medina, could not feel secure for their purse or their life, unless they had a strong escort.
But when this country became the Saudi Kingdom, the Qur'anic Law was enforced, crime immediately disappeared. A traveller, then, could journey, not only between the Holy Cities, but even from Al-Dahran on the Gulf to Jeddah on the Red Sea, and traverse a distance of more than one thousand and five hundred kilometres across the desert all alone in his private car, without harbouring any fear or worry about his life or property, be it worth millions of dollars, and he be a complete foreigner."

The Saudi Delegation resumed:

"In this manner, in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, where Islamic law is enforced, state money is transferred from one town to another, from one bank to another, in an ordinary car, without any escort or protection, but the car driver. Tell me, Gentlemen: in any of your Western States, would you be ready to transfer money from one bank to another, in any of your capitals without the protection of a strong police force and the necessary number of armoured cars?
...Only here, Gentlemen, in this country where Islamic Law is enforced, the American Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. William Rogers, during his visit last year, could, he and his suit, dispense with the armoured cars, which had been carried in by special planes, and which accompanied them in their tour of more than ten countries. Only here, Gentlemen, did the Government of the Kingdom not allow its visitors to go around in these cars. Eventually, Mr. Rogers spontaneously declined the guard of honour usually placed by the Government at the disposal of their foreign guests; he walked through the soulks by himself, and confessed that, in this Kingdom, and in this Kingdom alone, one had such a feeling of security that one had no more need of a gurad.
...Stealing is almost unknown in our Kingdom, when people, in the great Capitals of Western countries under secular regimes, have no more security for their luves of their possessions.

(Doi, Shari'ah: The Islamic Law, Ta Ha Publishers 1984, pp. 260-261)

Personally, I know many people who have lived for ten or twenty years in Saudi Arabia and they have testified that they have never come across such a case of amputation for theft. When you implement such a balanced code, theft becomes un heard of.

Callum, I want you to look at this UN survey of burglaries between 1998-2000. Tell me who is at the bottom of the list? Who is at the top?

1. United States 2,099,700 burglaries (1999)
2. United Kingdom 836,027 burglaries (2000)
.
.
.
54. Saudi Arabia 11 (2000)!

Which law is more successful?

format_quote Originally Posted by POBook

Why not simply have mercy and forgiveness on the guilty person?

First of all, if you read the verse in context you would have noticed that mercy and forgiveness are mentioned in the very next verse!

5:39 But whosoever repents after his crime and does righteous good deeds (by obeying Allâh), then verily, Allâh will pardon him (accept his repentance). Verily, Allâh is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.

So if a thief repents and returns the goods before he is caught, then he will not be given the prescribed punishment.

As for forgiveness and mercy, I hope you realize that a society will not be able to function without implementing a penal system. One of the major functions of society is to preserve justice and order and protect its citizens.

Lastly, to put things in perspective, let's talk about some of the punishments prescribed in the Bible. In Exodus 21:5-6 a slave who wishes to stay with his master is to be placed against a doorpost and have his ear pierced with an awl. In Exodus 21:20-21 if a master beats his slave, whether male or female, and they die immediately he will be punished but if they survive a day or two he will not because they are his property.

Regards

Hello POBook,

format_quote Originally Posted by POBook

I appreciate the detail you provided concerning this verse in the Qu'ran. My concern lay not so much in the verse itself, but rather in the principle of this verse: If a law is legitemately broken, it receives a legitemate consequence. Now, if a law has been established and someone is legitemately guilty of breaking that law, why does the judicial system simply not show mercy and forgiveness to the guilty party, and let them go?

The most obvious reason would be that a legal system that fails to implement punishments cannot function. Punishments are a necessary aspect of maintaining societal order by making criminals accountable for their crimes.

Regards

salam alaikum

If we are to read a Book Called "Crime and Punishment" its a sociological book but I dont remember the author - but its very famous and the premier in the research conducted on Crime and Punishment systems around the world.

The books says that punishments such as "jailing" only produce more criminals and in contrast punishment systems which are very harsh such as amputation or whipping of the person actually help prevent crime!

So sociology is in support of the Islamic Criminal System

Well the thing the book points out after conducting years of research is a fact we cannot deny:

People who are usually jailed come in contact with other criminal elements inside the jails. As a result of which a Stagerring 80% of jailbirds come out hardened criminals! With links to gangs and even more contacts in the criminal world. Also the jails take away any hope from the person because their lives are wasted away in jail cells

Now In Islam we have the punishments which deal a final blow to the whole issue and let the individual move on with the rest of their life.

- Serious Theft :
Option A: Cut off the hand
Option B: Forgive
Option c: Community service
Option D: Reimburse the person who was stolen from

- Murder :
Option A: Behead the murderer
Option B: Forgiveness
Option C: Blood Money paid as compensation on request of victims family

So Islam gives options and also something important to note is that before punishments are carried out in Islam - the case has to be argued to finality! That is the reason why 'circumstantial evidence' is not permissible in cases in Islamic courts because it is based on conjecture.

Salam Alaikum and peace:

I'm a Canadian too, East Coaster. I agree somewhat with what you said. I think we need to spend more on education rather than incarceration, however, that being said, I also feel our laws are toooooo lax. We need to be more consistent with punishment for serious crimes and the Young Offenders Law, needs to be abolished. It's not teaching the kids to take responsibility.

Just to mention, I'm a Canadian revert, so if you have any questions please don't hesitiate to ask, or come on down for some chicken something something. lol

Wasalam and peace
Hana

hey chicken something something is copyright lol

The harsh measure taken in Islam to many crimes is actually seen in action in Saudia Arabia - did you know it has the lowest crime rate ?

Not to mention on Fridays when people leave for prayers everyone leaves their shops open and unattended!! Yet no theft takes place.

Now thats the effects and their evidence!

Salam Alaikum:

I own the copyright. kay:

Yeah, akulion, I agree absolutely.

I've seen the pictures and heard the stories of the bars of gold displayed in the open, gold chains, etc. You would never see that here, and for good reason. lol

Wasalam
Hana

Salam Alaikum and Peace:

Yes, I agree Michaela. The problem is that they just keep creating new laws instead of revamping the old ones. The ones that should be behind bars are running loose on the street getting the kids to do the drug sales, etc., because they know with the Young Offender's Act, nothing happens to the kids. For the kids, it's fast money....they don't see the addiction that will surely follow and in turn leads to a life of crime. We need to come up with laws that not only protect the innocent, but will punish the guilty and provide help for those who need it.

Our laws are just not consistent here. Rape will get you anything from probation to life....depends on the judge. It's crazy. What I love about the Shariah Law is that the crime and punishments not only fit, they are just and they are the same for everyone.

Wa'alaikum salam and peace
Hana

Another interesting thing to note is the actions of the Anti-Capitalist movement and their portests.

The Capitalists groups hold their meetings in many countries every year...

At theri meeting venue The Anti Captilist group protested in NY and riot police had to be called out

At theri meeting venue The Anti Captilist group protested in London police had to be called out to contain them

At theri meeting venue The Anti Captilist group protested in France and riot police had to be called out to chase them away

in the year 2004 the meeting was held in Bahrain - not a single anti capitalist protestor went, their leader was interviewed on BBC and I still remember laughing when I heard what he said. He was asked why they did not go to protest against them in Bahrain? His reply was, "Are you crazy? those people chop off hands and heads, no ones gona risk going there!"

Lol so strict punishments scare the people as well to obey the law