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    Authority of the Scriptures

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    Al-Maeda 48 (Sura 5:48)

    "To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee..."

    If the Sriptures were considered to be Truth when Muhammad received this revelation; if the Scriptures were guarded by Allah in safety; if any behavior or approach to life that did not conform to the Sriptures was considered by Allah to be a divergence from the Truth...why do Muslims believe the Scriptures have been corrupted? It is clear that the Scriptures as they are written today, are in accord with the Scriptures written three years before the Qu'ran. If these Scriptures are today what they were when first written; if Allah is guarding them in safety; if Allah considers these scriptures to be the truth, how can these Scriptures have been corrupted?
    Authority of the Scriptures

    “The force of reason is capable of compelling the
    other party to accept one's argument.”

    Shaykh Salman al-Oadah
    ------------
    "But set apart the Messiah as Lord in your hearts, and always be ready to
    give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."

    1 Peter 3:15

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Quote Originally Posted by POBook View Post
    Al-Maeda 48 (Sura 5:48)

    "To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee..."

    If the Sriptures were considered to be Truth when Muhammad received this revelation
    The verse says no such thing. Read it carefully. It says that the Qur'an confirms those revelations that came before it i.e. the original Tawrat revealed to Moses and the Injeel revealed to Jesus.

    Christians often try to use these verses in an attempt to support their Bible, but the fact is that there is no basis in the Qur'an for such a view. Read this interesting dialogue:
    http://voiceforislam.com/FarmersMarket.html

    if the Scriptures were guarded by Allah in safety
    The nations who recieved the Tawrat and the Injeel were entrusted by God with the task of its preservation. But the final message from God, the Qur'an, was entrusted to Muslims with the task of its PROPAGATION to all the people of the world, and this time the task of its preservation was taken by God.
    It is clear that the Scriptures as they are written today, are in accord with the Scriptures written three years before the Qu'ran.
    Is it?

    Regards
    Authority of the Scriptures

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Hello Ansar Al-'Adl,

    It's good to talk with you again.

    "To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee..."
    "The verse says no such thing. Read it carefully. It says that the Qur'an confirms those revelations that came before it i.e. the original Tawrat revealed to Moses and the Injeel revealed to Jesus."
    I'm just interested to know why the "Scripture in truth" is said by Allah to have been sent--a past tense form of speech. If this was in reference to the Qu'ran, would it not have said, "To thee we are sending the Scripture in truth..."?

    Sincerely
    Authority of the Scriptures

    “The force of reason is capable of compelling the
    other party to accept one's argument.”

    Shaykh Salman al-Oadah
    ------------
    "But set apart the Messiah as Lord in your hearts, and always be ready to
    give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."

    1 Peter 3:15

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Another thought:

    Al-Maeda 47 (Sura 5:47)
    "Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."
    Has Allah revealed truth in the Gospel?
    Authority of the Scriptures

    “The force of reason is capable of compelling the
    other party to accept one's argument.”

    Shaykh Salman al-Oadah
    ------------
    "But set apart the Messiah as Lord in your hearts, and always be ready to
    give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."

    1 Peter 3:15

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Just wondering

    'Footnotes:

    1. 1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)'

    Now, 16th century, is that before or after the last prophet, peace be upon him?

    source

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Quote Originally Posted by POBook View Post
    I'm just interested to know why the "Scripture in truth" is said by Allah to have been sent--a past tense form of speech. If this was in reference to the Qu'ran, would it not have said, "To thee we are sending the Scripture in truth..."?
    The arabic word is anzalnâ which is not exactly like the past tense to which you are referring. This word is used manytimes to refer to the Qur'an, such as the following example:
    12:2 We have sent it down (anzalnâ) as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.

    20:113 Thus have We sent this down (anzalnâ), an arabic Qur'an, and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).


    Thus when the Qur'an says, "We have sent/revealed (anzalnâ) to thee" it is well understood that this is referring to the Qur'an being revealed to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

    I forgot to also point out that the translation you have used for verse 5:48 is not very exact. Where it says, "and guarding it in safety" the actual wording from arabic would be "and it is a muhaymin over them (i.e. previous scriptures)". Muhaymin means that it is the control, the final authority, the criterion by which we know what is true and what is false.

    Regarding verse 47, yes the original Injeel (not the four gospels of the new Testament) revealed to Prophet Jesus contained the truth.

    Regards
    Authority of the Scriptures

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

    Thanks for your reply.

    "Regarding verse 47, yes the original Injeel (not the four gospels of the new Testament) revealed to Prophet Jesus contained the truth."
    What I would like to know, is what was this original Injeel? Was this Injeel intact during Muhammad's time? Did Muhammad have access to this Injeel? Where is this Injeel today?

    Regards,
    Authority of the Scriptures

    “The force of reason is capable of compelling the
    other party to accept one's argument.”

    Shaykh Salman al-Oadah
    ------------
    "But set apart the Messiah as Lord in your hearts, and always be ready to
    give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."

    1 Peter 3:15

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    No the Injeel was not intact during Muhammad's time, it was the revelation preached by Prophet Jesus. Dr. Ali Ataie has authored a whole book on the subject:
    The Gospel of Jesus

    Regards
    Authority of the Scriptures

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

    "No the Injeel was not intact during Muhammad's time, it was the revelation preached by Prophet Jesus."
    Are you saying it was the revelation preached by the "Prophet Jesus" that was in tact during Mohammad's time? If so, what is this revelation today? Where can I read it ?

    Sincerely,
    Authority of the Scriptures

    “The force of reason is capable of compelling the
    other party to accept one's argument.”

    Shaykh Salman al-Oadah
    ------------
    "But set apart the Messiah as Lord in your hearts, and always be ready to
    give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."

    1 Peter 3:15

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Dr. Ali Ataie is "very offended" by the attempt of Arab Christians to plagiarize the Quran under the name "The true Furqan".

    He does exactly the same and writes a fake Gospel under the name "The true Gospel".

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Quote Originally Posted by POBook View Post
    Are you saying it was the revelation preached by the "Prophet Jesus" that was in tact during Mohammad's time?
    No, I said that it was NOT intact during the time of the Prophet Muhammad. Some remnants of Jesus's original message may be found in the four gospels but there is no way of knowing what is true or not unless we turn to God's final revelation, the Qur'an, a criterion in distinguishing the truth from the falsehood.

    Quote Originally Posted by mansio
    Dr. Ali Ataie is "very offended" by the attempt of Arab Christians to plagiarize the Quran under the name "The true Furqan".

    He does exactly the same and writes a fake Gospel under the name "The true Gospel".
    Explanation of this is given in the introduction to his book.
    Authority of the Scriptures

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

    Thanks for your reply. Three questions:

    1. Can you give me some examples of what is considered to still be true in the gospels?
    2. How much of the Torah is considered to be true and can you give me a couple of examples?
    3. When Muhammad talks about the “people of the Book,” to whom is he exactly referring?


    Sincerely,
    Authority of the Scriptures

    “The force of reason is capable of compelling the
    other party to accept one's argument.”

    Shaykh Salman al-Oadah
    ------------
    "But set apart the Messiah as Lord in your hearts, and always be ready to
    give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."

    1 Peter 3:15

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Quote Originally Posted by POBook View Post
    Can you give me some examples of what is considered to still be true in the gospels?
    Examples would include all teachings that are in agreement with the Qur'an, such as there being only one God (Mark 12:29).

    How much of the Torah is considered to be true and can you give me a couple of examples?
    The Torah is true where it agrees with the Qur'an. eg. Isaiah 45:5.

    When Muhammad talks about the “people of the Book,” to whom is he exactly referring?
    Nations who recieved a revelation, generally Jews and Christians.

    Regards
    Authority of the Scriptures

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    The People of the Book are very precisely listed by the Quran as the Jews, the Christians, the Sabians and the Majûs (Zoroastrians) (22:17).

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Quote Originally Posted by mansio View Post
    The People of the Book are very precisely listed by the Quran as the Jews, the Christians, the Sabians and the Majûs (Zoroastrians) (22:17).
    Precisely, mansio?

    Here's the verse:

    Verily, those who believe (in Allâh and in His Messenger Muhammad SAW), and those who are Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians, and the Magians, and those who worship others besides Allâh, truly, Allâh will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Verily! Allâh is Witness over all things. (Al-Hajj 22:17)

    The term "People of the Book" isn't even mentioned here.

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    And the verse also mentions mushrikeen (polytheists) who are clearly not from the people of the book.
    Authority of the Scriptures

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Abu Zakariya

    You are right the words "people of the Book" are not in those verses.

    I was wondering why Muslims had to discuss whether Zoroastrians were "people of the Book" and why Harranians managed to pass themselves as such.

    As Christians, according to Islam, are not monotheists, I understand that "people of the Book" refers only to people having the scriptures mentioned in the Quran.
    Do Zoroastrians have one of those scriptures ?

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    mansio

    You said that the verse "very precisely" mentioned Zoroastrians as one of the people of the Book. We are discussing that verse.
    I guess you tried to mention something as a fact, when you in fact didn't even know the slightest thing about the matter.

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Greetings again Ansar Al-'Adl,

    Thanks for your replies

    Regarding my question as to who are identified as "people of the book", you said:
    Nations who recieved a revelation, generally Jews and Christians.
    Again, a couple of questions:
    1. Was this just one revelation or did it involve several revelations?
    2. What was this/these revelation/s? Do we have records?
    3. When Muhammad made reference to "the book," did this "book" contain the revelations received?
    4. What was Muhammad's understanding of "a book"?


    Again, thanks for your time

    Sincerely,
    Authority of the Scriptures

    “The force of reason is capable of compelling the
    other party to accept one's argument.”

    Shaykh Salman al-Oadah
    ------------
    "But set apart the Messiah as Lord in your hearts, and always be ready to
    give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."

    1 Peter 3:15

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    Re: Authority of the Scriptures

    Hi POBook,
    1. The revelations were the Tawra and the Injeel, revealed to Prophet Moses and Prophet Jesus pbut respectively. Muslims also believe in the Zabur revealed to Prophet David pbuh. Other than this, there may have been other revelations but the important point is that the Qur'an is our criterion.
    2. The previous revelations have not survived in their original form.

    For 3 and 4, you'll have to cite the specific verse you're thinking of.

    Regards
    Authority of the Scriptures

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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