For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Fine, then that is what you find illogical in Christianity. I don't contend that every person will find Christianity logical. I only contend that it is true.

"truth' has to be consistent with fact and reality-- you confuse man made delusions for truth!

Except you mis-state what Christians believe once again. We don't believe that Jesus is one god and the Father in heaven is another god and that the Spirit is a third god. We believe that these three are but still one being. And we base that on the fact that scripture declares them each to be divine but that scripture also declares there to be only one God. We believe that both sets of statements are true, despite their apparent incongruity with each other. You may likewise call that illogical, we call it revealed truth.

Yes.. the young lady on the previous page stated, why not Christianity and we have listed why not --what you believe to be truth is irrelevant to the actual truth-- monotheism is defined as belief in a single God-- when you have a God of the cosmos, an ineffectual God in Nazareth and a hovering God whose Job is enunciate his wishes to women, you'll be making a statement that is necessarily false by virtue of simple definition!

Some churches do indeed have icons in them to remind them of past saints. It is sad whenever a person mistakenly begins to venerate the image made by human hands rather than the God who those saints themselves worshipped. But I don't label Christianity a form of paganism because some people make this mistake. It is a failing of individual Christians, not a tenet of the Christian faith.

Idols are material effigies that are worshipped-- given that you do both, that is worship Jesus and have statues of him in Churches, I don't see how one Christian is better than another.. it is all the same!

It may be, but at least now you have a more correctly understood reason for rejecting it than you presented before.

No not at all. You'll always be around the bend with this one, as the multitudes of ways to explain it are all nothing short of hilarious..

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by Follower

Here is a problem - the Quran says that Christians say that the One True GOD is actually 1 of 3 gods:

Does Allah not understand that Christians know He is one Allah?

4:171
Literal:You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector.

And yet Jesus is the only messanger in the Quran called
Kalimatuhu: God's Word (Ali Imran 3:45, Al Nesa 4:171)
Ruhunminhu: Spirit proceeding from Him (Al Nesa 4:171 )
Al-Masih: The Messiah (Al -Nesa 4:157, 171 )
Rahma: Mercy from God to mankind (Maryam 19:21)
Zakiyyan: Gift of a holy or sinless son (Maryam 19:19)
Salam: Peace on him (Maryam 19:33 )
Mina al-Saliheen: Upright or righteous shall he be
Nabiyy: Prophet (Al-Ankaboot 29:30 )
Rasul: Envoy, messenger (Al - Nesa 4:157, Al-Ma’-edah 5:75 )
Ibn Maryam : son of Mary , Jesus son of Mary (Ali-Imran 3:45)
Min al-muqareeab: Those who are close to God ( Ali Imran 3:45 )
Wadjih: worthy of esteem in this world and the next (Ali Imran 3:45)
Mubarak: Blessed ,a source of benefit for others ( Maryam 19:31)
Qawl al-haqq: Sure word ( Maryam 19:34.)
Abd Allah: Servant of God (Maryam 19.30)
Aya: A sign unto mankind (Maryam 19:21 ;3:50 ;43:61)
Shahid: A witness on Judgement day ( Al-Nesa 4:159)
Mathal: A Parable or example (Al-Zukhruf 43:57)
IIm: Knowledge of the hour (Al-Zukhruf 43:61)
Hikmah: Bearer of wisdom ( Al-Zukhruf 43:63)

Are you at that again? You had already been refuted in another thread and yet you insist on maintaining this delusion that you can portray Jesus pbuh as God in the Quran.

Have you ever thought that if the Quran was being addressed towards Christians and Jews in addition to the world that Allah wouldn't have felt like clarifying all the misconceptions about Jesus pbuh?


If you thought Moses pbuh was God, Allah would have made mention of HIM more than Jesus pbuh because of the fact that it is more of a point of conention.


On top of that, if you ask Hindu scholars if they belive in 1 God or many, they will answer 1 but that they view all the other gods as merely different parts of the same whole, as when you split white light into different colors.

Though, as eloquent as their explaination may be, it is not monotheism.


Even if you close your ears and drone on and on that "Christians are monotheists", you will never be right.



On an interesting sidenote: Some Jews today and many early Jews believe that when selling goods like wine, you can't sell it of a polytheist or pagan comes and touches it because it is not contaminated.


If a Muslim touched their drink, they believed they could still sell it, yet when a Christian touched it, they threw it out.


Makes you think? No?

format_quote Originally Posted by Follower

Kalimatuhu: God's Word (Ali Imran 3:45, Al Nesa 4:171)

إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ {45}
[Pickthal 3:45] (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

Ruhunminhu: Spirit proceeding from Him (Al Nesa 4:171 )

I am especially glad you brought this one to light.. if only you'd do more than cut and paste

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقِّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ انتَهُواْ خَيْرًا لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللّهُ إِلَـهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً {171}
[Pickthal 4:171] O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

Al-Masih: The Messiah (Al -Nesa 4:157, 171 )

وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلاَّ اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا {157}
[Pickthal 4:157] And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.


and the meaning and significance of being anointed:
by Ahmad Deedat

The word CHRIST is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic-Masih. Root word m-a-s-a-h-a, meaning to rub, to massage, to anoint. Priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. But in its translated, Grecian form "CHRIST", it seems unique:befitting Jesus only. The Christian has a knack of transmuting baser metals into shining gold. What he is wont to do is to translate names into his own language like "cephas" to Peter, "messiah" to Christ. How does he do that? Very easily MESSIAH in Hebrew means anointed. The Greek word for anointed is "christos". Just lop off the 'os' from christos and you are left with christ. Now change the little 'c' to a capital 'C', and "hey, presto!" he has created a unique (?) name! Christos means ANOINTED, and anointed means APPOINTED in its religious connotation. Jesus (pbuh) was appointed (anointed) at his baptism by John the Baptist, as God's Messenger.Every Prophet of God is so anointed or appointed. The Holy Bible is replete with the "anointed" ones. In the original Hebrew - made a "messiah". Let us keep to the English translation - "anointed." Not only were prophets and priests and kings anointed (christos-ed), but borns, and cherubs and lamp-posts also.

I am the God of Beth-el, where you ANOINTED a pillar.....

Genesis 31:13

If the priest that is ANOINTED do sin....

Leviticus 4:3

And Moses....ANOINTED the tabernacle and all things that was therein...

Leviticus 8:10

...THE LORD SHALL....EXALT THE HORN OF HIS ANOINTED

1 Samuel 2:10

Thus saith the Lord to his ANOINTED to Cyrus....

Isaiah 45:1

Thou art the ANOINTED cherub....

Ezekiel 28:14

There are a hundred more such references in the Holy Bible. Everytime you come across the word ANOINTED in your English Bible, you can take it that that word would be christos in the Greek translations, and if you take the same liberty with the word that the Christians have done, you will have - Christ Cherub, Christ Cyrus, Christ Priest and Christ Pillar, etc.
SOME TITLES EXCLUSIVE

Although, every prophet of God is an ANOINTED one of God - a Messiah, the title "Masih" or "Messiah" or its translation "CHRIST" is exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary, in both Islam and in Christianity. This is not unusual in religion. There are certain other honorific title which may be applied to more than one prophet, yet being made exclusive to one by usage: like "Rasul-lullah", meaning Messenger of God, which title is applied to both Moses (19:51) and Jesus (61:6) in the Holy Quran. Yet "Rasul-lullah" has become synonymous only with the Prophet of Islam among Muslims.
Every prophet is indeed a FRIEND OF GOD, but its Arabic equivalent "Kha- lil-lullah" is exclusively associated with Father Abraham. This does not mean that the others are not God's friends. "Kalimul-lah" (One who spoke with God) is never used for anyone other than Moses, yet we believe that God spoke with all His Messengers, including Jesus and Muhummed (May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon all His servants). Associating certain titles with certain personages only, does not make them exclusive or unique in any way. We honour all in varying terms.

Rahma: Mercy from God to mankind (Maryam 19:21)

قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا {21}
[Pickthal 19:21] He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

Zakiyyan: Gift of a holy or sinless son (Maryam 19:19)

قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا {19}
[Pickthal 19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

should take care of the 'holy spirit' being another God too if you'll bother read!

I suggest you do the same for the rest, you'll find out what a complete fool the moron who gave you snippets out of context, and you graciously enough letting the world know you are indeed a follower never bothered investigate what you cut and paste.

Every verse thus far has given you the picture that Jesus (P) is but a messenger of God!

all the best

Don't bother sister, I have already refuted Follower before and he seems to have complete amnesia when it comes to rebuttals.

We are talking about the Quran here not the Bible. Tell me are there any other messangers in the Quran mentioned in such a light?

Why use just Picthal? Read the literal meaning of those verses too.

3:45
Literal:When the angels said: "You Mary, that God announces good news to you, with a word/expression from Him, his name the Messiah Jesus Mary's son, noble in the present world/near and the end, and from the neared/closer."

4:171
Literal:You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector.

GOD threw His WORD and soul away to Mary

4:157
Literal:And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, God's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in him in doubt/suspicion from him, no knowledge for them with him, except following the assumption , and they have not killed him surely/certainly.

All we know from this verse is that the Jews did not crucify Jesus.

19:21
Literal:He said: "'Like that,' said your Lord, it is on Me easy/light , and to make/put him a sign/evidence to the people, and mercy from Us, and a matter/command accomplished/ executed .'"

How was Jesus a mercy to Muslims- you have to go back to the Holy Bible to find out.
10:45
Literal:So if you were in doubt/suspicion from what We descended to you, so ask/question those who read The Book from before you, the truth had come to you from your Lord, so do not be from the doubting/arguing.

19:19
Literal:He said: "Truly I am your Lord's messenger to grant/present for you a pure/righteous boy ."

It is the angel saying I am only a messenger- it is Jesus that is faultless here and no other is mentioned as faultless in the Quran!!

.....

...... lol?

Here Follower, remember this?

1. JESUS (PBUH) "IS A WORD FROM ALLAH" NOT "THE WORD OF ALLAH"

The Qur’an mentions in Surah Ali ‘Imran Chapter 3 verse 45

"Behold! The angels said: O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus. The son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those Nearest to Allah.
[Al-Qur’an 3:45]

Jesus (pbuh) is referred in the Qur’an as a word from Allah and not as ‘the word of Allah’.

"A word" of Allah means a message of Allah. If a person is referred to as "a word" from Allah, it means that he is a Messenger or a Prophet of Allah.

2. THE TITLE OF A PROPHET (PBUH) DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT EXCLUSIVELY BELONGS TO THAT PROPHET (PBUH)

Different titles are given to different prophets (pbut). Whenever a title is given to a prophet (pbuh), it does not necessarily mean that the other prophets do not have the same characteristic or quality. For e.g. Prophet Abraham (pbuh) is referred to in the Qur’an as Khaleelullah, a friend of Allah. This does not indicate that all the other Prophets (pbuh) were not the friends of Allah. Prophet Moses (pbuh) is referred to in the Qur’an as Kaleemullah, indicating that God spoke to him. This does not mean that God did not speak to others. Similarly when Jesus (pbuh) is referred to in the Qur’an as Kalimatullah, "a word from Allah", it does not mean that the other Prophets were not "the word," of Allah.

3. JOHN THE BAPTIST (PBUH) IS ALSO CALLED "A WORD" OF ALLAH

Yahya (pbuh) i.e. John the Baptist (pbuh) is also referred to in the Qur’an as Kalimatullah i.e. a word of Allah in Surah Ali ‘Imran, Chapter 3, verses 38-39

"There did Zakariya Pray to his Lord, saying: "O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!

While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: "Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a Prophet – of the (goodly) company of the righteous."
[Al-Qur’an 3:39]

4. JESUS (PBUH) REFERRED AS RUHULLAH – A SPIRIT OF ALLAH

Jesus (pbuh) also never referred to as Ruhullah "a spirit of Allah" but as a spirit from Allah in Surah Nisa Chapter 4 verse 171

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Jesus Christ the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, And His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not ‘Trinity’: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs."
[Al-Qur’an 4:171]

5. SPIRIT OF ALLAH IS BREATHED IN EVERY HUMAN BEING

A spirit from Allah does not indicate that Jesus (pbuh) is God. The Qur’an mentions in several places that Allah breathed into the human beings "His Spirit" in Surah Al-Hijr, chapter 15 verse 29 in Surah Sajdah, chapter 32 verse 9

Surah Al Hijr Chapter 15 verse 29

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
[Al-Qur’an 15:29]

Surah Sajdah Chapter 32 verse 9

"But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!"
[Al-Qur’an 32:9]

I skipped all that and read your last line.. of course Jesus was unique, he wasn't a tabernacle anointed or a cherub for that matter but it doesn't make him God!

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

So, then what is the point in attempting to engage in conversation with you?

Who said I was looking for conversation?
pls from now on just spare me the sermons and leave them for your congregation. what you need to do is give bold facts, and if you did really you wouldn't need to drown it all in this much verbosity!

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Then why are you here? Why do you post? Why do you engage people and respond to our posts?

Your pal follower posted wrong info. using the Quran, it is my duty as a Muslim to correct it. The other lady asked me directly why not Christianity? to which I felt a duty to answer. That isn't called gauging or interest in the other party's point of view. It is called correcting misinformation.

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

And you have also posted wrong info. with regard both to Christian beliefs and the Bible. And so I post to correct it.

in fact I haven't.. they were simply put stripped of flowery words and as I understand some people don't like the naked truth of their core beliefs!

This is not what Christians say that God did. It is not a part of our theology. The fact is that we say just the opposite.

What you interpret God did and the actual events that took place seem to be at odds. This isn't brain surgery.. It is rather plain for everyone to see-- I am not really sure what is difficult here to understand?

This is also an untrue statement. And I took the time to give you specific examples where the word ANOINTED appeared in the English Bible and was NOT christos in the Greek translations. But you chose to skip that.

The bottom line is there is nothing particularly 'divine' about anointment-- since I myself anointed my body after my shower this morning. an anointment of a king or messenger is certainly more impressive than the anointment of a person after a shower or even a tabernacle, but it still doesn't make gods of men!

When your premises are faulty, as they are in these two posts, your conclusions are likely to faulty as well. And btw, it is not a sermon, but as you said, "it is called correcting misinformation."

You tell yourself whatever you have to, to feel comfortable about your beliefs.. but repeating yourself ad nauseam with every thread isn't going to make the facts of the matter any less so.. although they might make one give up from the sheer redundancy..

all the best