For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?

format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

now how am i to take your own experiences any different when your faith to me is also false just like his?

You won't. But you put the question to me as a Christian, and I still tell you that for me the message is not in the book, but in the life of Jesus. That life was testified to and leading people to Jesus long before the book was ever written. The book is just a means by which we pass testimony of that life on from one generation to the next, but you make a mistake if you think that the book is the message, it merely points to the one who is himself the message.

esselamu aleikum

i think, not know, that Isas (Jesus) last words were Allahu Akbar either
in arabic or in aramaic.

format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

then by that definition your God is less powerful, Allah determines all things, the good and the bad and you are by your own and others admission on here following a book that has flaws and contradictions.

however many words you attempt to use you cannot get away from the fact that the basis of christian docterine is this book, the bible.

I'm not sure why that makes "my God" less powerful. After all what God can do and what God does do are two different things. Additionally, if Allah determines all things, and I am, by your definition, following a book that is flawed, is that not something that Allah has determined? Who am I to differ with his deterimination?

Now, as to the part of your post that made sense: "the basis of christian docterine is this book, the bible." On that you are correct. But the Christian message and Christian doctrine, though similar, are not identical. Maybe doctrine and message are identical in Islam, but they are not in Christianity. Let me illustrate with a comment made on a Christian forum between two Christians.

Christian #1: How do does one defend Arminianism?

(Note: for those who may not be familiar with Christian theology and doctrine, there are two great camps in Christian theology, essentially debated endlessly.
(1) Calvinism which says that God because of the ultimate sovereignty of God, that this means God predetermines who will and who will not be saved and that Christ's atoning work only applies to those who God has elected for salvation. And that if you are chosen, God's grace is irresistable; and that if not chosen, it is unattainable.
(2) Arminianism which says that because humans have free will that they are free agents with regard to accepting or rejecting God's offering of grace. That such grace is offered freely to all, and therefore that Christ's atoning sacrifice was made on behalf of all, but that it is only effective in the lives of those who willingly receive it.
Both groups have strong biblical verses to support that contending views.)

Christian #2: Predestination versus Free will? This may sound horrible, but personally I don't care. It doesn't effect my spiritual walk at all. An elder once told me. Pray to God like it's all up to God. But let your actions and decisions be made like its all up to you. So, suppose I did know the answer, it wouldn't effect my life either way. I'd still follow the same guidelines. It's doctrine that doesn't have any practical life applications.



So you see, there is lots of room to debate Christian doctrine, and with or without the book some of it is going to be right and some of it is going to be wrong. But important as doctrine is, right doctrine isn't the key for Christian living, putting God's message of love and salvation made available to us in Jesus Christ to work in one's life is. Ultimately Christian praxis trumphs Christian beliefs. (See Mattew 25 and James 2 for biblical support of that worldview, but be warned doing so returns us to a discussion of doctrine.)

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

for example, i can prove to non muslims the Quran is the word of God by various means that dont just involve the referring to the Quran itself

What you claim as proof may be full of flaws and contradictions, because I have not seen your proof, and I am a non- Muslim.

I do believe we have to be very careful in how we use our proof against others.

In the spirit of praying to the One God who hears all our prayers.

Eric

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi

What would you consider to be the Word of God? Every sentence that Christ uttered? Or the Word that Christ taught, as the Sermon on the Mount?

I didn't say the particular words "Why have you forsaken me" were part of a parable, I was responding to your assertion that to understand Christ only required a literal reading of His words. In some cases that was true, but in others it requires more thought and understanding of Scripture.

Perhaps He wasn't teaching anything, and this was a literal cry of despair. Or perhaps He was still teaching, with use of an OT Psalm. As we have established, it is unknown.


Christ's time on the cross wasn't about looking for anything or teaching anything. It was suffering. During this time of suffering, Christ is said to have uttered seven statements. Some of them profound, some of them as simple as "I am thirsty." Christ's cries of pain and despair are a reminder of what He was going through. As for the particular sentence in question, we have established there is no proveable evidence as to what it meant or its significance.


The demons who entered the pigs led to their destruction. Christ simply removed them from the individual and allowed them to enter the pigs. Why? Who knows. It was obvious from the verse that Christ could have sent them to the "abyss". He did not.

And you are ignoring the verses I cited for you. There is righteous anger, which is not anger about what one has said about you, but about what one is doing to others. Should God not be angry with those who hurt the innocent? Unrighteous anger, as outlined in Matthew 5:22, is destructive anger and unnecessarily demeaning. Of course Christ was angered by the acts of the Pharisees.

Talk about playing with words. Okay, Christ, as a human being, could have fallen into temptation. All it would have taken was Christ ignoring the Will of God. However, Christ could not be tempted into doing that. He endured many days of Satan's temptations, and was not swayed by those temptations.


I didn't say resisting temptation makes one sinless. I stated that Christ, who did not have a sinful nature, could not be tempted.

The Jesus in the Bible shouted "Eli, Eli lama sabachtani." Eli means my God.

Why didn't the crucified man said "Aba, Aba lama sabachtani." Aba means father.

Why did Jesus in the Bible never said that he was going to sacrifice himself to human kind with "his blood,"?

Why did 'son of God'(in inverted comas) eaten and eat food? If God had/has a son wouldn't that man not as simbolically a food and wouldn't he be a non eating being?

In the Dead Sea Scrolls even written that he did Polygyny. He was married with more than 1 wife(Polygyny).

The Dead Sea Scrolls was not only about the written things prior to Jesus. Because the excavation was stop for the reason that it was found a source in there which wrote that Almasih Jesus Ibn Maryam Rasulullah 'alaihi Shalawatu wa Salaam was doing Polygyny.


May peace, development and save from guile be upon who follow the guidance.

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

just about every former christian who becomes muslim says the Quran is the book they wanted the bible to be, now you are on a muslim messageboard so will be easy if you want someone to send one to you so you can at least check out the evidence.

I am at peace with my faith, I know you have good intentions and mean well, but I came to this forum in the hope of fostering interfaith friendship. We are all created by the same God, my beliefs hang on the greatest commandments and justice for all people.

If we are to use Holy Scriptures to compete against each other, then it should be in doing good deeds to bring glory to God and justice and peace for the oppressed, marginalised and poor.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all the poor and oppressed people.

Eric

format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Thayyib

In the Dead Sea Scrolls even written that he did Polygyny. He was married with more than 1 wife(Polygyny).

The Dead Sea Scrolls was not only about the written things prior to Jesus. Because the excavation was stop for the reason that it was found a source in there which wrote that Almasih Jesus Ibn Maryam Rasulullah 'alaihi Shalawatu wa Salaam was doing Polygyny.

You posted this 5 days ago in another thread, I asked you for a source and you provided none. So, I offer these sources:

Although the Qumran community existed during the time of the ministry of Jesus, none of the Scrolls refer to Him, nor do they mention any of His follower's described in the New Testament.

Source: 25 Fascinating Facts About the Dead Sea Scrolls

And in terms of the quest for the historical Jesus, what does the story of the Essenes tell us? What light does it cast on his life and times?

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and our growing knowledge of the Essene community that produced them, gives us one of the most important pieces of evidence for the diversity of Jewish life and thought in the time of Jesus. Now, it has sometimes been suggested that Jesus, himself, or maybe even John the Baptist, were members of this group. And that can't be proven at all. But what the Essenes and the Qumran scrolls do show us is the kind of challenges that could be brought against some of the traditional lines of Jewish thought, and even the operation of the Temple itself. So if one of our perspectives is that there is this growing tension in Jerusalem, the Essenes are probably the best example of how radical that questioning of Temple life might become.

Source: FRONTLINE: The Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls


Now the DSS are continuing to be researched to this day, and perhaps you have something new that the above websites did not have. If Jesus is mentioned at all in the DSS, be it referring to a marriage or something else, I would like to have the manuscript reference, as there are some who want to suggest that Jesus wasn't even a real person because they insist that he is never mentioned in contemporaneous writings of his day.

Hadith are not the Word of GOD, the Gospel is the Word of GOD.

Are you asking about Jesus last words on the cross, before His assenscion, our last day of Judgement?

You must go to the Aramaic reading of the Bible to receive the full message of Jesus' last words on the cross-

Matthew 27
46 And about the ninth hour, Yeshua cried out with a load voice and said, My God! My God! Why have you spared me?

50 Then again Yeshua cried out with a loud voice and gave up his spirit. [go to Luke and John to read the actual words]

Mark 15
34 And in the ninth hour, Yeshua cried out in a load voice and said, Eil! Eil! lmana shwaqthani, that is “My God! My God! Why have you spared me?

Luke 23
46 And Yeshua cried out with a load voice and said, My Father, Into your hands I place my spirit! He said this and it was finished

John 19
30 And when he had taken that vinegar Yeshua said, Behold, it is finished! And he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

then later:
Matthew 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

and thanks for the extra contradiction in matthew, now we have three different accounts

Follower asked you a question, do you want the last words of Jesus on the cross, or the last words before he ascended into heaven. The passages he gave covered these two separate events in time, this is not a contradiction.

Mathew 28
Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

You might reflect on these great claims, as I understand Islam recognises the authority of Jesus.
I believe we have to be very careful about our views on other faiths, we answer to the same God.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric