I keep seeing Christians (mostly Catholics) beating this dead horse where they accuse the Qur'an of depicting the Virgin Mary to be part of the Trinity. When I read these two Surah's that supposedly depicts this accusation I fail to see the connection.
Sahih International Translation:
An-Nisa:
171: "O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs."
Al-Maeda:
72: "They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers."
73: "They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment."
74: "So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
75: "The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded."
116: "And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen".
So am I right in my assumption that the Qur'an doesn't depict the Virgin Mary as part of the Trinity and the error comes from translation or have I missed something and the Qur'an does suggest such a thing?
Yes you're right, the Qur'an doesn't say such a thing. In fact you'll be surprised to believe that the Qur'an doesn't even agree to the trinity and it's the verse that you have already quoted.
A translation of the Qur'an by Yusuf Ali says:
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. [Al Meada 5:73]
And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.” [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]
So all this fuss was caused by a poor translation of the Qur'an or just plain ignorance?
It could be because of poor translation, but I highly suspect plain ignorance.
And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.” [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]
I keep seeing Christians (mostly Catholics) beating this dead horse where they accuse the Qur'an of depicting the Virgin Mary to be part of the Trinity. When I read these two Surah's that supposedly depicts this accusation I fail to see the connection.
What about this verse?
And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? 5:116
The translations of the verses all is ok ,and no problem with them....
As a matter of fact the accusation of the Catholics and other sects too is of 2 points:
1-the Quran depicts christians as believing that Mary is God .
2- the Quran depicts Mary to be a person of the Trinity.
the verse under discussion:
116: "And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen".
1-the Quran depicts christians as believing that Mary is God .?
The key word here is the word in the verse
(Alehatan) which is translated (deities,gods)
What does taking(someone,something) as a god in Islam means?
1-To believe in him,her,it as the creator.
or to believe that he,she,it would influence your life or life of others directly or indirectly in a way that only God is able to....
or Calling upon others [graves, mystics, saints, idols, Mary etc.] besides Allah for help,or intercession.
Holy Quran 72:20 Say, "I call unto my Lord alone and associate no one with Him
7:192 And they cannot help them, nor can they help themselves.
7:197 Whomever you call instead of Him, have no power to help you, nor can they help themselves.
2- the Quran depicts Mary to be a person of the Trinity?
The holy Quran 73: "They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God.
The verse mentions the Trinity but where does it name what is said to be its persons?
The holy Quran116: "And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?
If the verse aimed at defining the trinity it would certaily contains the so called third person of it (The holy spirit)....
If they argue of a verse claiming Mary to be part of the trinity then they have to bring us such verse which mentions the 3 persons of the trinity including Mary...
If the verse says 116: "And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother and the holy spirit as deities besides Allah ?
The Quran doesn't say she is a part of the trinity but it does say that they worship her.
In order to understand what the word "worship" means in this context is basically this...
You know how people have statues of her, psometimes pray to those statues and ask for her help, and generally offer prayers to her? That is worship, because they are only supposed to ask Allah directly for such things because noone but him can help them.
ATK, it's quite obvious what the number 3 in verse 5:116 refers to.
format_quote Originally Posted by imam
1-To believe in him,her,it as the creator.
or to believe that he,she,it would influence your life or life of others directly or indirectly in a way that only God is able to....
or Calling upon others [graves, mystics, saints, idols, Mary etc.] besides Allah for help,or intercession.
1. Catholic only make up half the World's Christian population.
2. You could say Catholic attitude to Mary would falls under the islamic definition of god, but you'd be mistaken as the Catholic faith doesn't teach so. Yes, sainst can intercect, that's the only part of the Catholic tachings you got right. Intercession is far from god and it applies to all saints, so why does your book only mention one of them?
Some people may appear to treat Mary as god and spent to much time praying etc, but no persona actually considers her to be god. I am aware the islamic definition of god is different and certain Catholic attitute to AMry could make her a god, however, the verse is targeted at Christians so it would make sense that it will use christian terminology - so crhistians can understand it and realize oh how terribly wrong they were.
It should have mentioned the Holy spirit whom Christians actually consider to be a part of the trinity.
You could say Catholic attitude to Mary would falls under the islamic definition of god, but you'd be mistaken as the Catholic faith doesn't teach so. Yes, sainst can intercect, that's the only part of the Catholic tachings you got right. Intercession is far from god and it applies to all saints, so why does your book only mention one of them?
Well to be honest the term Saint and how it is applied is man made. There are thousands of Catholic Saints alone and a person can only become one by being canonized by the church (by man). Since God created Mary, mother of Jesus, then it would seem natural that the Qur'an only mentions Mary.
he verse is targeted at Christians so it would make sense that it will use christian terminology - so crhistians can understand it and realize oh how terribly wrong they were.
It should have mentioned the Holy spirit whom Christians actually consider to be a part of the trinity.
How about the accuracy of the Quran in mentioning the different chrisitian(Nasarenes a more accurate term mentioned in the Quran) beliefs
1)Jesus is son of God
2)Jesus is God.
ATK, it's quite obvious what the number 3 in verse 5:116 refers to..
Thank you for your note .....now I got where the problem
I concentrated only on the word (deities) in the verse in all translations and that is why I missed translation of Shakir
where is the problem
Shakir:
And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah.
The word (men doon) من دون in the verse
5:116 واذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم ءانت قلت للناس اتخذوني وامي الهين من دون الله قال سبحانك مايكون لي ان اقول ماليس لي بحق ان كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم مافي نفسي ولااعلم مافي نفسك انك انت علام الغيوب
translated by shakir as (besides) while it means literally
instead of ,apart from ,without ,other than .....
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto people, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?'
Other examples of the same word in the Quran:
PICKTHAL:043.086 And those unto whom they cry instead of(men doon) Him possess no power of intercession, saving him who beareth witness unto the Truth knowingly.
10.018 They serve, apart from God(men doon), what hurts them not neither profits them, and they say, 'These are our intercessors with God.' Say: 'Will you tell God what He knows not either in the heavens or in the earth?' Glory be to Him! High be He exalted above that they associate!
36:23What, shall I take, apart from(men doon) Him, gods whose intercession, if the All-merciful desires affliction for me, shall not avail me anything, and who will never deliver me?
6:51 And warn with it those who fear to be brought before their Lord that they have no guardian or intercessor, other than Allah(men doon), in order that they are cautious.
53:57
The final judgement draws near.none except Allah(men doon) can disclose it.
6:108 Abuse not those to whom they pray, apart from God(men doon), or they will abuse God in revenge without knowledge.
There are other verses ...but I think those are enough to convey the fact....
Question : what is the proper word to convey the meaning of (besides,with) and hence gives the meaning of a trinity of (father,son,Mary)?
It is the word (m3a) which means (besides ,with)...
and it is mentioned in the Quran in the same context:
27:60
امن خلق السماوات والارض وانزل لكم من السماء ماء فانبتنا به حدائق ذات بهجة ما كان لكم ان تنبتوا شجرها االه مع الله بل هم قوم يعدلون
Look how all the translators translated it :
Yusuf Ali Or, Who has created the heavens and the earth, and Who sends you down rain from the sky? Yea, with it We cause to grow well-planted orchards full of beauty of delight: it is not in your power to cause the growth of the trees in them. (Can there be another) god besides Allah? Nay, they are a people who swerve from justice.
Pickthal Is not He (best) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sendeth down for you water from the sky wherewith We cause to spring forth joyous orchards, whose trees it never hath been yours to cause to grow. Is there any Allah beside Allah? Nay, but they are folk who ascribe equals (unto Him)!
Arberry He who created the heavens and earth, and sent down for you out of heaven water; and We caused to grow therewith gardens full of loveliness whose trees you could never grow. Is there a god with God? Nay, but they are a people who assign to Him equals!
Shakir Nay, He Who created the heavens and the earth, and sent down for you water from the cloud; then We cause to grow thereby beautiful gardens; it is not possible for you that you should make the trees thereof to grow. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! they are people who deviate.
Sarwar (Are the idols worthier or) the One who has created the heavens and the earth, who has sent water from the sky for you, who has established delightful gardens and you could not even plant one tree? Is there any Lord besides God? In fact, the unbelievers are the ones who deviate from the right path.
Khalifa Who is the One who created the heavens and the earth? Who is the One who sends down to you from the sky water, whereby we produce gardens full of beauty - you could not possibly manufacture its trees? Is it another god with GOD? Indeed, they are people who have deviated.
Hilali/Khan Is not He (better than your gods) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water (rain) from the sky, whereby We cause to grow wonderful gardens full of beauty and delight? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of their trees. Is there any ilah (god) with Allah? Nay, but they are a people who ascribe equals (to Him)!
H/K/Saheeh [More precisely], is He [not best] who created the heavens and the earth and sent down for you rain from the sky, causing to grow thereby gardens of joyful beauty which you could not [otherwise] have grown the trees thereof? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but they are a people who ascribe equals [to Him].
Malik Is not He (Allah), Who has created the heavens and the earth, sends down rain from the sky and with it brings forth the beautiful gardens not better than the false gods that they worship? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of trees for those gardens. Is there another god besides Allah who could do that? No doubt they are a people who have swerved from justice in ascribing equals to Him.[60]
QXP Nay, who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water from the sky? And with it We cause to spring forth beautiful orchards. It was never of your doing to make the trees in them grow - any god beside Allah? Nay, they who think so are people who are deviating (from reality).
Maulana Ali Or, Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water from the cloud? Then We cause to grow thereby beautiful gardens -- it is not possible for you to make the trees thereof to grow. Is there a god with Allah? Nay, they are a people who deviate!
Free Minds The One who created the heavens and the Earth, and He sent down water from the sky for you, so We cause gardens to grow with it that are full of beauty. It is not your ability to cause the growth of its trees. Is there a god with God? No. But they are a people who ascribe equals!
Qaribullah Is He who created the heavens and the earth, and sent water from the sky for you and caused gardens to grow full of beauty of which its tree you could never grow, is there a god with Allah? No, but they are a nation who set up equals with Him!
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
1. Catholic only make up half the World's Christian population...
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto People, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said,
what people in the verse refers to?
The verse simply tells a scene of day of judgment:
Allah will ask Jesus;
Did you preach TO THE PEOPLE that you and your mother are gods apart from God?
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
2. You could say Catholic attitude to Mary would falls under the islamic definition of god, but you'd be mistaken as the Catholic faith doesn't teach so. .
Let them teach whatever they like ,but we let the prayer to Mary speak of itself:
Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin, Help of Christians, we place ourselves under your motherly protection. Throughout the Church's history you have helped Christians in times of trial, temptation and danger. Time and time again, you have proven to be the Refuge of sinners, the Hope of the hopeless, the Consoler of the afflicted, and the Comforter of the dying.
"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.
Mary, all who seek your help
experience your unfailing protection.
Amen.
surely the catholics don't believe in Mary as God the creator but the previous sample of prayers shows what violates the definition of Monotheism according to Islam.....
7:197 Whomever you call instead of Him, have no power to help you, nor can they help themselves.
Call our Islamic view of monothiesm as strict (as some christians say).
our terms of our strict monotheism is simple .... 1-to believe in a unique and indivisible being who is independent of the creation,and has no persons .
2- to direct the worship at him and only him without any mediator of any kind.
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Intercession is far from god and it applies to all saints, so why does your book only mention one of them? .
go to the previous verses In the post to see how many saints(and other false gods too) is mentioned.
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
the verse is targeted at Christians so it would make sense that it will use christian terminology - so crhistians can understand it and realize oh how terribly wrong they were.
.
It is done before
5:77 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
Surah 4: 169. O ye people of the Book! do not exceed in your religion, nor say against God aught save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, is but the apostle of God and His Word, which He cast into Mary, and a spirit from Him; believe then in God and His apostles, and say not "Three." Have done! it were better for you. God is only one God,
you have seen ,the Quran condemns them in their terminology (three persons in one God) ,and condemns them and other religions too in other terms (the issue of the worship and intercession)....
why no verse mentions the holy spirit by name as being god?
,cause the Quran concentrate on the act of worship ....
though the holy spirit is part of the so called trinity ,yet no christian ever direct his prayer to the holy spirit , he rather resort to the physical beings(which he has imaginary pictures of them in his mind) so he pray, ask Jesus etc... to support him by such holy spirit....
not to pray for the holy spirit to support him with Jesus...
Did you preach TO THE PEOPLE that you and your mother are gods apart from God?
Jesus never says such a thing in the Bible and every Christian slightly educated about the Christian faith will know Mary is not a god. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are. And if the verse uses the word gods and it is targeted at Christians it is pure nonsense. Christians do not believe Mary is a god or a part of the trinity and having Jesus tell them this is useless.
A portion of Christians may hold the belief of intercession but it not only applies to Mary but also to saints, guardian angels etc, so mentioning Mary besides Jsus and God is again senseless.
Your right, the BIBLE doesn't, but Christians and those alike claim Mary is and this is what Allah refers too. So technically there's nothing wrong with the verse
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
Your right, the BIBLE doesn't, but Christians and those alike claim Mary is and this is what Allah refers too. So technically there's nothing wrong with the verse
Exactly ! that is why he will comment:
"Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right.
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
and every Christian slightly educated about the Christian faith will know Mary is not a god. .
And every pagan Arab before Islam would know that Hubal, Wadd,Manat etc... are not Gods
but they reason their prayers for such idols (as what is done with mary and saints)
Quran39:3 Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to God" .
christians repeat the same old song !.....
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
so mentioning Mary besides Jesus and God is again senseless .
you repeat again the same point been refuted liguestically in my last post!!....
LOL! I am a non-Catholic Christian and I can tell you no Christian believes that Mary is a god or has any power what so ever to answer prayers. She is a beautiful example of someone willing to submit to GOD's will.
I believe to the Catholic praying to Mary is having Mary put in a good word for them to GOD.
Bowing down to pictures of Mary, figures is simply a sign of respect exactly like Muslims bowing to the black cube. We all know that the black cube is not Allah right? Or like Muslims throwing rocks at the satan pillars, stone. Do you think you are really throwing away your sin or throwing a rock at satan?
Exactly ! that is why he will comment:
"Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right.
And every pagan Arab before Islam would know that Hubal, Wadd,Manat etc... are not gods
but they reason their prayers for such idols (as what is done with mary and saints)
Quran39:3 Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to God" .
christians repeat the same old song !.....
you repeat again the same point been refuted liguestically in my last post!!....
I have been to catholic school and they have multitudes of prayers toward Mary (p), I have actually posted some of them on this board.. a prayer to anything beside God is taking other Gods besides him. That is the veru defintion of shirk, whether or not they call her Goddess is irrelvant as their actions are more telling..
Also I don't understand the resident moron's comparison between a rock and a painted woman in a veil to represent their God's mother, It doesn't matter how Christians allege they don't worship her, putting painted pictures of women some whom were W hores such as caravaggio's death of the virgin, where he literally fished out a newly dead w hore and made her to resemble the 'mother of God' is as sacrilegious as I can think of, where is the 'respect there', I don't think actual pagans are as brazen or misguided as chrisitians at least they don't sell you a triple God in one!
waslaam 3lykoum wr wb
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
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Qur'an and the Trinity
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