Would like to understand you people..

Good day to you Thomas,

May I interject momentarily, as I thought your post was interesting.


You have quoted that being a Christian is being submissive, turning the other cheek etc. Although you have quoted a verse in the Bible (Matthew 5:38), any good Christian knows that a single speech delivered by Jesus (in this case the Sermon on the Plain) does not constitute his entire message.

Jesus was a revolutionary, a visionary, and without doubt one of the greatest men to ever walk this earth. What he was not however was a pacifist. The greatest struggle for us fault ridden human beings is not a physical one, but a spiritual one.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Ephesians 6:12
Bible


I have heard countless Muslims saying Islam is a peaceful religion. Yes it is, however peace is not about pacifism.

The greatness of Rome was characterised by:

Si vis pacem, para bellum

If you wish for peace, prepare for war

It is a heartily Christian concept to fight the good fight (Timothy 6:12).

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Edmund Burke

Peace is not an absence of war, it is a virtue, a state of mind, a disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice.

Benedict Spinoza

Yes Islam does have an element to it that some may consider militant, but this side is to fight for all that is good in this world, and to protect the desolate, the poor, and the oppressed.

I do not think Jesus would have disapproved of the use of force against an evil enemy who uses force.

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven ... A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Ecclesiastes 3:1,8
Bible

The most widely quoted verse in the Quran is from surah al-Baqarah (chapter 2: verse 191) "Slay them wherever you find them" - I'm sure you've come across that a few times. I know I have!

What you will not find however is the verse before (2:190);

Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.


and the verse after (2:192)


But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


To say Islam is a militant faith is correct, if Judaism and Christianity are also militant faiths. However I argue that all three of the sister faiths are in fact militant, when need be, upon God's command, and forgiving, when need be, at God's command.

Is that not the aim of any religion claiming to be from God - the obedience to His Will?


As for the tree of light, my friend I am sure you will not find a single Muslim who would be offended with calling a Christmas tree a Christmas tree! These actions are done by pen pushing meddlers who want to stir up the good indigenous folk like yourself, and make them believe Muslims are trying to take over!

Have you ever heard a Muslim asking for a Christmas tree to be renamed?


Finally every religion has a group of hotheads, with too much time on their hands, and a definite belief that they are acting the Will of God by shouting angry slogans, and holding up ironic placards. They have as much approval in the Muslim community, as they do in the English community, but that wouldn't be a good story for the newspapers would it!


Peace my brother in humanity, Lord knows we are in need of it.


My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

Proverbs 3: 1-2
Bible

Thomas,

Why do people blow themselves up? I'm sure its because they are in fact mentally retarted, because thats why they do such a small thing. Like I said before, you see what you see in the media. You and I know nothing of how it is for those people. The people fighting the war in Afghanistan? What war? All it is is some group called NATO of the British, Americans and some other pawns going around in big helicopters doing what they wish. They're not fighting an enemy, they never even had one helicopter, ever. They're fighting these guys who've had their homeland invaded, and are getting killed with no equal defence. Everytime a British or American soldier dies, the world press talks about it like its some sort of Genocide. Everytime a hundred people in Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq, Pakistan, everytime a hundred muslims die, you'd be lucky to see anyone in the media give a ****. You want injustice, you got it. You want politics, you got it.

And the problem here is quite clear. Its up to US to clear your misconceptions? Thats rubbish. All your ideas are just filled with the basic ideas of racism. Thats all it is, racism. Its not immigration, its racism. For some reason you see Asian people as some other sort of being, you don't want them near 'your' country. You say its a problem for us to resolve? No its not, its upto you to resolve your racist ideas. If you had a say white person who looked a bit English immigrating, you'd have no problem at all. You just see difference and think there's a problem. So yeah, its upto you to solve. You cannot seriously put it down to immigrants being trouble, because then that is serious double standard. Sure, they bring problems, but have you seen the English people? Are they some great people? Some much of English youth has so much wrong with it, but you won't contest against any of that. Why? Because, again its racism that's the problem here. You'll never have all immigrants being perfect, if you want to carry on with your views, you can. So yeah, its upto YOU whether you want to carry on being like that or not.

Finally, I want to get to a more important point. You follow Christianity don't you? Its more important to you than any sort of ethnic values right? So answer me this, does it say anywhere in Christianity that certain land is the right of only certain people? Because you speak as though you are the God of England, and everyone else must worship you or go. No, even though I don't have much knowledge of Christianity, I doubt it says specific people have specific land. No, I'm sure Christianity sees everyone as humans. You have no greater right or belonging in a country than the next man.

Oh and for quoting, you just click the 'QUOTE' button underneath a user's post. You can put more than one quote into a post by using the multi quote button next to the quote button. Though how you can quote specific parts of a users post is a bit more complex I'd think. I think you'd probably use the opening and closing tags as shown below around each part of the text you want to quote, then put your message, and then put the same tags around the next piece of text too.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thomas

texthere

The first part of the tags with the username and numbers will show when you click the quote button for a post. Just try it out as I'm not to sure myself, but just use the 'Preview Post' button when typing a post to see how the post looks before submitting.

Hmm, didn't know the word '****' was censored. Just thought I'd add this since it looks like more not so friendly f word has been used.

Sorry. Cant agree with you about our military presence in Afgan. We are there fighting the taliban who are forcing afgan farmers to produce 85% of the worlds poppy heroin to provide the massive funds to pay for training camps for terrorists to then come here and perpetrate atrocities like be have already seen here and in USA. The Taliban couldnt care less about how many junkies their poppys create - after all, WE are their enemies because we wont allow their way of life (Sharia law? to prevail. You know, the kind of regime where women are treated second rate, girls dont get an education and religous police dictating... The Afgan farmers would rather grow an alternative crop but risk having their fingers cut off for voting and death for defying the taliban. Afgan cant even hold a proper election because of the threats. Our soldiers are being killed trying to protect us from people we would rather not let come here. Problem is, at the moment, we dont know who are the potential terrorists and who are the ordinary nice guys so everybody is treated with suspicion. We are entitled to try and secure our own borders.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thomas

Sorry. Cant agree with you about our military presence in Afgan

I'm a little confused to what your reasoning for a British presence in Afghanistan is....

Your deep rooted sense of well being for the Afghan farmers, or your unrelenting desire to see the emancipation of Afghan women, um I'm a little confused?

If at all Afghans are coming into this country, its by claiming asylum from a destabilised country from a foreign invasion.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

Perhaps England would like all that poppy for itself to force yet another nation into opium trade?

Ahhh you beat me to it!

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

o
1- Stop speaking for me or assume my position in Islam (taliban or not)

Very good point.

And what of the rest of my post?

format_quote Originally Posted by mahi

And the problem here is quite clear. Its up to US to clear your misconceptions? Thats rubbish. All your ideas are just filled with the basic ideas of racism. Thats all it is, racism. Its not immigration, its racism. For some reason you see Asian people as some other sort of being, you don't want them near 'your' country. You say its a problem for us to resolve? No its not, its upto you to resolve your racist ideas. If you had a say white person who looked a bit English immigrating, you'd have no problem at all. You just see difference and think there's a problem. So yeah, its upto you to solve. You cannot seriously put it down to immigrants being trouble, because then that is serious double standard. Sure, they bring problems, but have you seen the English people? Are they some great people? Some much of English youth has so much wrong with it, but you won't contest against any of that. Why? Because, again its racism that's the problem here. You'll never have all immigrants being perfect, if you want to carry on with your views, you can. So yeah, its upto YOU whether you want to carry on being like that or not.

Finally, I want to get to a more important point. You follow Christianity don't you? Its more important to you than any sort of ethnic values right? So answer me this, does it say anywhere in Christianity that certain land is the right of only certain people? Because you speak as though you are the God of England, and everyone else must worship you or go. No, even though I don't have much knowledge of Christianity, I doubt it says specific people have specific land. No, I'm sure Christianity sees everyone as humans. You have no greater right or belonging in a country than the next man.

As much of a sort of personal attack that may be, I'd like to ask you the same message again. As a Christian, are you ever told anywhere that you have a divine right or any right to any land? If you're really worried about over crowdedness on your little island, go somewhere else.

Mahi
On re-reading your reply to me, I can see now that you dont understand English rhetoric... when something is put within inverted commas it is a quotation that OTHER people say... So when I said "what are they doing here, where do they come from, are they on Benefits, will they send for loads of 'wives' etc" I am trying to tell you what many OTHER judgemental English people are saying in order for you to understand how many many Brits feel about the subject, because they are, and wish to remain, uninformed of Asian viewpoints.. I COULD also be one of them but by using this website I am trying to become better informed. You must not take everything I write as personal..... But I do know how millions of other English people feel and am trying to convey these feelings to you, in the hope of a solution. You have to face the fact that the BNP polled almost one million votes and at the next election they could well receive 5 million or even more because of the virtual lack of direct communication with immigrants. THEY are saying "We want our contry back" So before you fire off another "that is racist" reply please understand that I have just said "THEY are saying.....". I have already told you that what I have written is without malice and need to answer in the same vein if you want to keep your dialogue with English born people open..... I dont mind WHAT race you are as long as you are prepared to accept our customs and assimilate so that we are not suspicious of you and yours, which is a quite natural thing for those not used to change quite so quickly. And that doesnt mean that we want to stop you building mosques as long as we dont find that the people in charge (immams?) are like that fellow with a hook for a hand and who I think is now in prison for sedition or something similar. And didnt he blow his own hand of whilst preparing something nasty? I know he may be just a one-off extremist and a complete charlatan but hearing about this sort of cleric worries us Brits. HOWEVER! To balance up my 'prejudice' I have to tell you that in the 1930s there was a Church of England vicar who used to preach in his church on a Sunday and then go to London (Soho?) to visit prostitues, taking the church collection money with him! It sounds almost funny now but the discovery was a great shock to everybody at the time.... My parents remember the case. I am on this site to gather Asian points of view and to be better informed, not to create problems. But it is no good being patronising - one needs to speak plainly.

format_quote Originally Posted by mahi

Very good point.

And what of the rest of my post?



As much of a sort of personal attack that may be, I'd like to ask you the same message again. As a Christian, are you ever told anywhere that you have a divine right or any right to any land? If you're really worried about over crowdedness on your little island, go somewhere else.

We are talking about the here and now in reality, not what happened 200/300 years ago. As for telling me to go somewhere else when this country is my birthplace. that is ridiculous. As a Christian I believe God made me and in His wisdom placed me here so I suppose you could say that that was 'divine' and if I went to live in another country I would try and adopt the customs of that country or NOT go there... I have not been rude enough to suggest that if you were not born in England, that you might consider returning to your birth place.... IF you ARE an immigrant, please tell me why you came here and why you chose UK over loads of other European countries with similar customs to ours. I am not saying you shouldn't have chosen US, just the rationale behind it. And I dont mind what law, Sharia or other, that you or Gossamer wish to adopt as long as it is not inflicted on the rest of us and particularly on my grand and great-grand daughters.... unless by then they CHOOSE to embrace Islam and whatever advantages optional sharia law offers girls (or even boys) at that time. I am assuming that your mention of the poppies is rehtorical - all I will say is that I dont mind if I never ever see an opium poppy - if it were possible, I would love the Americans to killer spray the lot once a fortnight. The only poppies I am interested in are the ones on sale between now and November 11th. Harmless but very representative of people from many nations who died to give us the freedom to conduct correspondance on sites like this without police (religous, nazi or otherwise) preventing free speech. And the only law I want to embrace here is uk parliamentary law that I helped vote for along with millions of others. That's called democracy...

format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow

Well I think you should know that America had once supported the Taliban and gave them weapons. Now the Taliban have used those weapons against the Americans. I find it odd that a ''brutal'' regime like the Taliban was supported by the American government once upon a time...not everyone member of the Taliban are bad people. Yvonne Ridley explained that the Taliban when captured her did not mistreat her and were in fact kinder than compared how American government treat those in Guantanamo bay. So do not absorb everything that the media says...they love twisting the news... more PUBLICITY = ££££

You cannot simply go to a country and establish democracy at the point of a gun. It does not work. You end establishing a corrupt government which shall put the needs of the foreign invaders as their top priority. Democracy does not mean that they will bend down and live your way of life. In fact they can rebel against foreign occupiers and choose to live the complete opposite way of life than Westerners. Democracy is not a means of establishing your views on others. It is about the people themselves establishing what is right for them as a majority.

I don't think you know much about the Shariah law. Women under Shariah are allowed to be educated...Taliban have implemented their own views. You need to distinguish between actions of Muslims and Islamic principles. If a Muslim say everyone should jump off a cliff that does not mean the Qur'an commands anyone to do so.

America and Britain are making a mess of everything. The American government and support from its allies are randomly labelling countries as terrorist states (Axis of Evil), invading countries like Iraq and now threatening sanctions with Iran. Honestly it is a big joke. America is infatuated with Israel, and implements its policies on what the Israeli government likes to happen. America continues to dig a bigger hole for itself and Britain is tagging along. It is just a big mess....your creating your own terrorists.

Good luck to Britain and America....they'll need it.

Well with the bloke in charge of Iran (Ayatollah?) apparantly wanting to "wipe Israel of the face of the world" and wanting access to nuclear weapons, I am not surprised the Americans are supporting Israel. I am old enough to remember all the surrounding Arab countries being daft enough to think they could catch Israel with its trousers down on their Yom Kipper day. They all suffered a massive defeat.. I believe Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon decided they had better sign a peace treaty with Israel. Not sure about Syria. What I do remember is that before the 6 day war, the Syrian "army" used to specialise in shooting dead unarmed Israeli farmers as they plowed their fields below the Golan Heights and then wondered why Israel eventually had to deal with them too.. Not sure about Iraq but at least the man in charge who was found hiding in a hole with a 6 month old beard was found and hanged by their own people. Remember those two 'brave' sons he had? Now we have another 'brave' tyrant just going on trial in The Hague - he was also found in disguise with a very long beard. They really bravely face the music when their luck runs out, dont they (not)?

But we are getting off track with all this talk of Iraq, poppies, sharia law and suggestion that I should leave the country of my birth and "go somewhere else"
Lets find a way to convince the many millions of worried English men that those who have come, and continue to come, from other parts of the globe will not stand and abuse our returning soldiers, will learn English where neccessary, will hopefully spread themselves out a bit, will decline unwanted concessions to ethnic minorities and drive away all the bogeys and hang-ups that we read about... Who makes up all these stories?

Dear Thomas,

Once upon a time there lived a boy that thought the whole wide world was just 10 years old. Little did he know that the world around him was shaped as a result of centuries of actions.

Many immigrants in this country are third generation children of people from the Indian subcontinent who were bought to rebuild this nation after the war.

In fact I am sure they would all just go home once they are compensated for their effort in a war they had nothing to do with - the commonwealth armies took part in WW2 remember!

Most Muslims are actually in favour of controlled immigration. Pity Labour are smoking some unearthly cocktail of wild herbs and running this country a mess.

Anyway I shant intrude Gossamer skye's systematic decimation of your arguments.

I shall be your shoulder to cry on when she's done



p.s I have not visited a single country where British ex pats adopt the local way of life! In fact there are literally thousands of English people living in the middle east. They live only among themselves, stick to their English way of life, and their English dresses, and can't speak a word of Arabic - I know, the cheek!

format_quote Originally Posted by Thomas

Sorry. Cant agree with you about our military presence in Afgan. We are there fighting the taliban who are forcing afgan farmers to produce 85% of the worlds poppy heroin to provide the massive funds to pay for training camps for terrorists to then come here and perpetrate atrocities like be have already seen here and in USA. The Taliban couldnt care less about how many junkies their poppys create - after all, WE are their enemies because we wont allow their way of life (Sharia law? to prevail. You know, the kind of regime where women are treated second rate, girls dont get an education and religous police dictating... The Afgan farmers would rather grow an alternative crop but risk having their fingers cut off for voting and death for defying the taliban. Afgan cant even hold a proper election because of the threats. Our soldiers are being killed trying to protect us from people we would rather not let come here. Problem is, at the moment, we dont know who are the potential terrorists and who are the ordinary nice guys so everybody is treated with suspicion. We are entitled to try and secure our own borders.

Hello, welcome to IslamicBoard I hope you will benefit and see a good side of Muslims. I quoted you here because i think it necessary that i should say with the coming of foreign troops in my country, the heroin percentage had actually increased. It was the taliban who had tried to reduce the heroin percentage and they had amazingly succeeded. That was until the USA came and the number rose again. Why wont you allow our shariah to prevail? After all its our country and we rule it how we want, that is by the shariah, the Islamic way. Do you know many Afghans are against these foreign troops in my country? All you do is target innocent people at weddings and other ceremonies, and each time that happens, you have more resistance. Your soldiers are being killed, making them believe they died for a good cause. But they are just wasting it. The number of these soldiers dying is clearly hidden by the media. If its so much about what the Afghan people want, then we don't have to find foreign troops in Afghanistan. I do apologize for bombarding you with this post as i see you have many other things you would probably reply to. Once again, welcome and enjoy your stay

In the shariah girls do get an education and women are not treated second rate in Islam. And religious police dictating

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

.. what happened in the past is what has shaped your present and in all likelihood your future .. in fact your little colonial settler state was handing out citizenship to people for such purposes as using them for wars and as agents and then denying them their citizenship later and boasting having gone to wars without losing a single British soldier.. you should research your history on Hong Kong & India amongst other places.. it didn't really happen 200-300 yrs ago.. Are you simply unread in history or is all that freedom to inebriate deeply affected your mamillary bodies?

as for free speech, it seems to only be manifest when you have something derogatory or condescending to say, further highlights you as a hypocrite which I have no doubt that you are, given any point of opposition is met with the expected platitudes and irrelevant bromides.

Now, I don't have to adapt to anything your laws, like your social mores mean absolutely nothing to me, firstly I don't live in your little colonial settler state to acquiesce to its laws, secondly given how incredibly blue collar you are, as are the people who often share your views, I guarantee that it is my tax money that allows you said freedoms to sit in your home like a loafer and complain on who isn't exactly like you and why they are detestable..

Unlike most people here who truly have a genuine desire to reach out and put things aright with your ilk, I personally couldn't give a **** what you think or what you want to understand.. simple history tells me, that nothing is going to be pleasing to you and I personally have no interest in trying!...

I assume a God fearing worldly christian like you can at least grant us the courtesy to write in paragraphs? rather painful to sit through one of your posts for more than the obvious reasons..

all the best

p.s. my comment on poppy wasn't in rhetoric, I fail to see how you can construe it as such?.. further, 'poppy' has many medicinal usages that I have no interest to go into with you or on this forum.. it is really not up to you whether or not it should be burned down by the Nordic or the Americans... It isn't just used to enslave people and force them to adopt an open door policy so your tootin' queen can have some tea with her biscotti ..........

OK. You dont live in UK so why you jumping out of your pram when the concerns we have here dont involve you? And how can your taxes support me or the Queen if you dont live here? Your mention of the colour of my shirt collar is lost on me. Does that mean I am a wealthy snob or poverty stricken? I think my grandparents 1870-1945 did use the phrase 'blue collar' to denote manual workers but I have never used or liked the term as we all work one way or another these days. I am merely trying to put over the worries that English people have in the hope that we can overcome our prejudices. You seem to lose your temper and s****r if you read another person's point of view. If you did come here you would get loads of that. Although grammatically incorrect Ive kept this post all one paragraph as recommended by you. Goodnight and God bless....