Would like to understand you people..

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

I am a Muslim, on an Islamic forum, naturally the affairs of Muslims world wide affect me.. it involves me very much as I have a thing against half-wits with a superiority complex and very poor attention to details.

$230 B of my tax and others like me have gone to support the war of which your poodles are an accomplice and profiteers.

Nothing to do with your wealth and everything with your upbringing and level of education!
I have frequented your country and only met with your type in the crappy parts where some use scape goats to corneal their own inadequacies, and even if their wishes at a Hitler's dream type of homogeneous society were to suddenly be granted, you'd find them still suffering the same fate.. as I stated earlier, it is a matter of expectations and upbringing than the muslims in your backyard..

all the best....

OK. I can see that you are upset and I will turn the other cheek....
I wonder where the 'crappy parts' of the UK are.
You do need to develop the ability to accept others points of view. Your semi-abuse doesnt change the fact that we in UK (55 million in a very small island) feel somewhat overwhelmed by more than 2 million more immigrants in recent times and still no government plan to deal with the future. Other European countries including France (twice the size of UK with same population), Holland and Denmark are showing similar concerns. Apart from numbers, the real fear of a sizeable majority is that it is changing our way of life. I appreciate that much of this may be, in reality, unjustified but the prejudice is there and needs to be overcome by some means or other. It is no good just covering it up for conveniences sake and it is going to be a major issue at the forthcoming election within the next 6 months. It is now 4am here and hope you will feel better by the time I wake up again. I have kept it all in one paragraph....

format_quote Originally Posted by Afg

In the shariah girls do get an education and women are not treated second rate in Islam. And religious police dictating

Hello Afg and thanks for your posts.I appreciate what you say.
Our problem here in UK is that with 55 million people including more than 2 million immigrants in recent years and still growing, the position has become a political (almost) timebomb.

I am sure that much of our concern is what we hear and see in the press and TV and we are worried that our way of life will change. France, Holland and Denmark have the same concerns now. France is right now trying to banish the wearing of the burka to virtually enforce the wearers to take on a more European and particularly French way of life.

I have been endeavoring to point out our concerns to others on this website, not to create problems but to try and explain exactly how millions of English people feel even thugh it is seen as prejudice. it is possible that this is not the right site for such discussions but for us Islam and the political consquences of it are very real indeed

I have nothing against sharia law within your own and anybody else's country but it is a very big no-no in UK. We are led to believe that it disadvantages women in particular and we have just spent the past 40/50 years creating equality of the sexes here. We also hear of religous police and all that kind of things. Much of it may be unneccessary wory but we dont know enough about muslim way of life. On the surface, it doesn't look very attractive. That may be quite wrong but we dont know and the current thinking is 'stop them coming'.
The growing right wing party is calling out "we want our country back".
May be I have created more problems than I need have done on this site but it has been interesting. I dont know how else to get our points of view over as to why we are worried. But we are and it is going to be a major political debate and possibly a rebellion when election time comes within the next 6 months.
These are not neccessarily all myown personal views but just how millions are thinking right now

Regards Thomas

format_quote Originally Posted by Thomas

Hello Afg and thanks for your posts.I appreciate what you say.
Our problem here in UK is that with 55 million people including more than 2 million immigrants in recent years and still growing, the position has become a political (almost) timebomb.

I am sure that much of our concern is what we hear and see in the press and TV and we are worried that our way of life will change. France, Holland and Denmark have the same concerns now. France is right now trying to banish the wearing of the burka to virtually enforce the wearers to take on a more European and particularly French way of life.

I have been endeavoring to point out our concerns to others on this website, not to create problems but to try and explain exactly how millions of English people feel even thugh it is seen as prejudice. it is possible that this is not the right site for such discussions but for us Islam and the political consquences of it are very real indeed

I have nothing against sharia law within your own and anybody else's country but it is a very big no-no in UK. We are led to believe that it disadvantages women in particular and we have just spent the past 40/50 years creating equality of the sexes here. We also hear of religous police and all that kind of things. Much of it may be unneccessary wory but we dont know enough about muslim way of life. On the surface, it doesn't look very attractive. That may be quite wrong but we dont know and the current thinking is 'stop them coming'.
The growing right wing party is calling out "we want our country back".
May be I have created more problems than I need have done on this site but it has been interesting. I dont know how else to get our points of view over as to why we are worried. But we are and it is going to be a major political debate and possibly a rebellion when election time comes within the next 6 months.
These are not neccessarily all myown personal views but just how millions are thinking right now

Regards Thomas

I see where you are coming from. It must be worrying and something strange, but you want to know why are they coming to England? Many of these people believe they will have better opportunities in countries like England. Some of them do, and some of them don't. Some come for education and some come for jobs. The jobs most of them do is like catering or something similar, but then we should ask, if these people didn't do such jobs, who will do them? As for the number of Muslims, or of females wearing burka, it does not only mean that they have come from another country. Some of them are English converts.

There should not be a problem with many Muslims, and don't worry, it should not change the way you live. These Muslims see countries like England and the USA as countries where there is freedom of choice. So when they are asked not to wear a burka, like how it happened in France, there will be a problem. You see the freedom that is given in these countries should let the Muslims practice their faith freely. Then hopefully there will not be a problem. But then non-Muslims, as i see, don't understand why women would wear burka. Muslim women wear scarves or burka to protect themselves and as it says in the Qur'an to cover up. This is for the protection of both men and women. If you want to know more about this, you can make a new thread or use the search engine to see if this topic is already posted.

Misunderstandings and lack of communications may be another reason for problems between Muslim migrants and the locals.

Please can this thread be moved to "Current Affairs", because it's no longer (and I don't think it really ever was) about comaparative religion, it's actually immigration concerns.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thomas

We are talking about the here and now in reality, not what happened 200/300 years ago. As for telling me to go somewhere else when this country is my birthplace. that is ridiculous. As a Christian I believe God made me and in His wisdom placed me here so I suppose you could say that that was 'divine' and if I went to live in another country I would try and adopt the customs of that country or NOT go there... I have not been rude enough to suggest that if you were not born in England, that you might consider returning to your birth place.... IF you ARE an immigrant, please tell me why you came here and why you chose UK over loads of other European countries with similar customs to ours. I am not saying you shouldn't have chosen US, just the rationale behind it. And I dont mind what law, Sharia or other, that you or Gossamer wish to adopt as long as it is not inflicted on the rest of us and particularly on my grand and great-grand daughters.... unless by then they CHOOSE to embrace Islam and whatever advantages optional sharia law offers girls (or even boys) at that time. I am assuming that your mention of the poppies is rehtorical - all I will say is that I dont mind if I never ever see an opium poppy - if it were possible, I would love the Americans to killer spray the lot once a fortnight. The only poppies I am interested in are the ones on sale between now and November 11th. Harmless but very representative of people from many nations who died to give us the freedom to conduct correspondance on sites like this without police (religous, nazi or otherwise) preventing free speech. And the only law I want to embrace here is uk parliamentary law that I helped vote for along with millions of others. That's called democracy...

Thomas, I think it suffices to say you do not have the first clue of Islam, and how it treats women. Like I've said too many times now, the media is a source of ignorance. The amount of respect and protection Islam gives to women is unparalleled.

Anyhow, back to the immigration issue. I started frequenting a Christian forum recently. I asked them this question:
Q: Does Christianity specify anything about rights to certain land? A British Christian recently told me they didn't want Asian people coming to Britain, so I was wondering if in Christianity it is said anywhere that land is specific to people or for everyone or no mention of anything rather?

This is the answer I recieved:
A: Christianity says nothing of the sort. Jesus loved all people, irrregardless of origin. Silly things such as race or borders made by men mean nothing to Jesus. The only thing I can think of is the promised land of Israel to the Jews, but that doesn't really apply to Christianity at all.

I'm sorry that many of the responses you've received have become maybe a bit harsh, though. But Christianity teaches humans are stewards, no? What right does one human have over another in this world? Like above, Jesus loved all the people and took no note of silly things such as race and borders.

format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan

Please can this thread be moved to "Current Affairs", because it's no longer (and I don't think it really ever was) about comaparative religion, it's actually immigration concerns.

Spot on!

The laughable thing is that in the UK majority of the new immigrants are non muslim, they are white christian eastern europeans from places like Poland.

format_quote Originally Posted by mahi

Thomas, I think it suffices to say you do not have the first clue of Islam, and how it treats women. Like I've said too many times now, the media is a source of ignorance. The amount of respect and protection Islam gives to women is unparalleled.

Anyhow, back to the immigration issue. I started frequenting a Christian forum recently. I asked them this question:
Q: Does Christianity specify anything about rights to certain land? A British Christian recently told me they didn't want Asian people coming to Britain, so I was wondering if in Christianity it is said anywhere that land is specific to people or for everyone or no mention of anything rather?

This is the answer I recieved:
A: Christianity says nothing of the sort. Jesus loved all people, irrregardless of origin. Silly things such as race or borders made by men mean nothing to Jesus. The only thing I can think of is the promised land of Israel to the Jews, but that doesn't really apply to Christianity at all.

I'm sorry that many of the responses you've received have become maybe a bit harsh, though. But Christianity teaches humans are stewards, no? What right does one human have over another in this world? Like above, Jesus loved all the people and took no note of silly things such as race and borders.

Hi Mahi
I did start my quest to try and find out a bit more about muslims and try and point out that the mistrust, worry, concern, etc of we English is a COLLECTIVE anxiety that vast numbers of the population has WHETHER IT IS VALID OR NOT. Part of our concern is the 'touchyness' that muslims SEEM to have when mentioning anything about their faith, Allah, Mohammed etc whereas we are quite used to hearing abuse, profanities about God and Jesus every day. This had lead to us worrying about having to make (unwanted?) concessions. Many years ago here it used to be a bit like that when talking to Catholics especially Irish ones but not nowadays. I dont neccessary hold all of the views that lots of English hold about immigrants. If I did I wouldnt be writing on this site now - I would still be holding the same, seemingly prejudicial views, as most others. The fact remains that muslims ARE different and inclined to keep themselves to themselves when in uk. I dont feel I have gained much from the debate other than a bit of defensive abuse, especially from one who is not even living in UK yet felt the need to abuse QE2 (we take all that sort of thing on the chin as many people here are not monarchist and we dont get steamed up about it...)and talk of possible Brit genocide....

I am still mystified so will close the debate here and go on carrying my concerns, if not prejudices. God Bless you

format_quote Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi. I came across this site by chance and would really like to understand people I have never met face to face.

I am English born and Christian which faith, by definition, is acquiescent, submissive (turn the other cheek, pray for your enemies etc) but we now seem up against a faith (Islam) that seems to have few if any of these 'disadvantages' to rein in what seems to be a very militant faith. I mean (although it didnt happen in England) tat silly business of Allah being insulted by a teddy bear being named Mohammed when I thought it was one of the commonst names for a boy - like the English JOHN. The other sad things that really irritates and alienates we Brits is Burka covered women holding placards abusing British soldiers as they march past (Luton?). This one act has brought out Brit street mobs to make things much worse for immigrants. Then, yesterday, I read about a 20 years old women ( presume she is female..) going to register for a college cout dressed from head to foot in a burka and refusing to even show her face for identification which seems so incredibly stupid that I can only assume sh was put up to this by others who want to push, push, push the boundaries acceptable to the average Brit. I expect she will appeal against being refused registration - and the appeal will be allowed "in case it offends people of other faiths". In my town we now have a "Tree of Light" instead of an annual Christmas tree "in case th latter offends those of other faiths" . Have you considered how much abuse Christianity takes, every minute of every day through blasphemies and cynicism? And God, in his infinite wisdom allows that whereas muslims seem to feel the need to take revenge - as if Allah is unable to handle it and deal with it.... Dop Muslims ever actually pray for their enemies, do good to those that hurt you and despise you etc?

To summerise, I wish muslim immigrants would just try and assimilate theselves into English life without constanty seeking concessions. OR, are we Brits making misakes by merely thinking that you want Tree of Light etc concessions when you don't want to patronised?

Thomas,

As it has been noted already you seem to be linking religion and immigration in your thread.

I think the UK tends to pay lip service to its Christian values. I do agree Christianity in the UK tends to get a good kicking from the press and society in general. Unless they are attacking islam. Then the press loves them.

Firstly I would say that it may be that the christianity you represent (anglican christianity) has kind of become very weak and liberal and pretty much surrendered and is really scared of defending its teachings. theres numerous examples of these i.e. gay relationships, Jesus (pbuh), even the virgin birth, heaven/hell.

I'm sure you would agree that American or African evangelical christians do not turn the other cheek? Nope, there happy to take revenge. they dont overlook gay marriages?

I agree with you regarding those extremists waving placards calling people to be killed and making fools of themselves protesting. What goes through their minds I dont know. I think we need to distinguish between those wierdo's and people who genuinely protest peacefully.

I agree with you that those local councils who go OTT with their nonsense about having Christmass lights or carols are fools. Truth is Muslims dont care. Those councilors are probably athiests.

I also think you look at muslims as immigrants. Well acutally, theres lots of muslims who are white and english born. Do they also have to conform and assimiliate? to what? what are british values?

format_quote Originally Posted by TestData

Thomas,

As it has been noted already you seem to be linking religion and immigration in your thread.

I think the UK tends to pay lip service to its Christian values. I do agree Christianity in the UK tends to get a good kicking from the press and society in general. Unless they are attacking islam. Then the press loves them.

Firstly I would say that it may be that the christianity you represent (anglican christianity) has kind of become very weak and liberal and pretty much surrendered and is really scared of defending its teachings. theres numerous examples of these i.e. gay relationships, Jesus (pbuh), even the virgin birth, heaven/hell.

I'm sure you would agree that American or African evangelical christians do not turn the other cheek? Nope, there happy to take revenge. they dont overlook gay marriages?

I agree with you regarding those extremists waving placards calling people to be killed and making fools of themselves protesting. What goes through their minds I dont know. I think we need to distinguish between those wierdo's and people who genuinely protest peacefully.

I agree with you that those local councils who go OTT with their nonsense about having Christmass lights or carols are fools. Truth is Muslims dont care. Those councilors are probably athiests.

I also think you look at muslims as immigrants. Well acutally, theres lots of muslims who are white and english born. Do they also have to conform and assimiliate? to what? what are british values?

Although I said I have closed the debate I will take the risk of one more reply , to explain that christianity is not like Islam these days. When we say people are of christian descent they are not neccessarily practising christians. I doubt if more than 10% of the population are, but they just like the advantages of what the faith has provided over the centuries - like a holiday at the end of the year with some food and drink and good time, decorations and christmas trees in shops, carols and hopefully, a measure of goodwill for a week or two...
And the 90% who are non-practising wont let the 10% who are, close down pubs and things that practising christian dont approve of. So, ONE of our 'problems' with muslims is they all appear to be practising ones and we dont like to ask too many questions. Are there lots of non practising muslims? We are inclined to think not, so see them all as very serious people who keep themselves to themselves and not mix with us. I mean, we wouldnt expect to meet a muslim in a pub, or on a Friday or Saturday night out carousing in the town - and that is probably a good thing! So, my conclusion is that we dont mix, our prejudices and suspicions remain. I just wish I knew a muslim personally that I could have a drink (of tea!) with and ask questions. But I dont and that is the problem..... Because muslims take their faith so seriously, they appear not to like or accept criticism of their way of life in Europe, especially judging by one of my more recent vociferous correspondants who uses personal abuse to justify his/her case... I am sure he/she is an exception. God Bless You

Thomas
I have lived in England my whole life and have friends of different religions, Christians, Hindu's, Sikh's, Athiests, Bahai's and have yet to come across someone who thinks like you.
I know a lot of christians who discuss religion with muslims and I myself as a muslim have discussed Islam with people of other faiths so I'm not sure who you are representing when you say,
"So, ONE of our 'problems' with muslims is they all appear to be practising ones and we dont like to ask too many questions. Are there lots of non practising muslims? We are inclined to think not, so see them all as very serious people who keep themselves to themselves and not mix with us"
Please dont take this as an insult but I'm not sure what the society is like in your town but maybe you need to venture out to a town that has a mutli cultural society where people of all faiths live happily next to each other.
You may find this hard to believe but places like this do exist in England.

"I just wish I knew a muslim personally that I could have a drink (of tea!) with and ask questions. But I dont and that is the problem..... Because muslims take their faith so seriously, they appear not to like or accept criticism of their way of life in Europe, especially judging by one of my more recent vociferous correspondants who uses personal abuse to justify his/her case... I am sure he/she is an exception. God Bless You"

If you dont know any muslims at all personally, should you really be making generalisations about us?

Dont have any muslim work colleagues?

Many of us do take faith seriously. Though I think you will find that many muslims are not practising muslims.

I think if you stick around long enough on this forum you may get to know more about us.

"We are led to believe that it disadvantages women in particular and we have just spent the past 40/50 years creating equality of the sexes here. We also hear of religous police and all that kind of things. Much of it may be neccessary wory but we dont know enough about muslim way of life. On the surface, it doesn't look very attractive. That may be quite wrong but we dont know and the current thinking is 'stop them coming'.

I am sorry that this thread has taken on the vein that it has. It would be nice if we could accept people's questions and anxieties for what they are without going on the back foot. The issues Thomas has raised are of real concern to many English people. Partly, that is Muslims fault for not talking to people about their religion as io mentioned before, and that breeds fear. People, especially if they don't know any Muslims in person, then take whatever they see in the media, which quite frankly, can be a load of old tosh.

Thoams, you said you did want to learn a bit more about Muslims. I am guessing one of your anxieties is shariah law and what you hear about it. I guess you are thinkong that there'll be so many Muslims here eventually that we will all have to live under that barbaric and monstrous shariah law.

Firstly, can I say, that Islam is the only non-Christain religion which makes it an article of faith to believe in the central figure of Christianity, ie Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). If a person calls himself a Muslim and doesn't
believe in, respect, or love Jesus (peace be upon him) then he is NOT a muslim. NO other religion has this stipulation.

We believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was one of the mightiest messengers of God.
We believe that he was the messiah, translated as christ.
We believe he was born miraculously without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians today do not believe.
We believe that he gave life to the dead with Gods permission.
we believe he healed those born blind and lepers with Gods permission

However we don't belive tht Jesus ever claimed divinity, or that he was God, son of God, or where he said worship me.
We also do not belive that he was crucified.

We belive in all prophets whether we have heard of them or not. That includes the final Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). We are not allowed to pick and choose those we believe in. We also belive in the existence of all the books of God i.e. Bible, Torah, Psalms of David (peace be upon him), and any other books that we have not been told about, revealed before our time. We also believe in the angels, and day of judgement.

Shariah law is very firm but very fair. Can I ask and I hate to ask this question, but what would you want to do say if somebody raped one of the ladyfolk of your family. Most people say, "I'll kill them". Islam gives the same punishment that you yourself would give if that crime was perptrated against you or your family. Yet, when we hear that punishment has been applied to the rapist of someone else's wife/daughter/sister/mother, people say it's barbaric. Hmm...double standards eh? There is also the option for forgiveness too, which our law (I think) doesn't recognise at the moment.

Women.Islam was the first religion to make the woman a legal entity in her own right. The first religion to allow her to earn, own and dispose of her own property as she pleased. The first religion to insist on women receiving a share of inheritance. Muslim women in some Muslim countries do not take on the husbands surname on marriage, as that was a remnant from the slave trade. In Europe women were perceived as being owned by the man on marriage, Like the Palmers and the Williams amongst Afro Carribeans on the plantations. Women in Islam have so many more rights that they have been enjoying and taking for granted hundreds of years before these rights appeared in Europe.

Most people don't understand why a woman would want to cover her face. That lack of understanding makes them think someone must have forced to do it. Some of the women in face veils are the most feminist, opinionated, educated women you could ever hope to meet, and they could describe to you with deep conviction and faith why they personally chose to wear it.

Please do not lose heart if people have been hot headed with you.
I invite you to study more about Islam and ask more questions.

I pray that God guides us all to his straight true path. Amen. Peace