When we look at the greatness and perfection of nature it seems that all has been created with intended purpose, gravitational laws, physic laws, natural laws, this goes for all natural bodies present in our universe.
However natural bodies are unintelligent, they are incapable of deciding of these laws by themselves, however they all act towards a defined end, for example, a planet will orbit around the sun.
The complex array of cells of the human body all have specific functions, acting towards an end is a characteristic of intelligence.
Now that this has been said it is obvious that there exists an intelligent being that guides all that exists and dictates these laws.
the concept of morality in religion, well in Islam at least, is absolut because it comes from Allah SWT.
while human concept of morality changes with time and regions, at the very least .
What you consider immoral maybe a very moral thing to do for another person, and then how do you reconcile your moral values with others?
This is a complex question which I know better than to try and answer, and it doesn't help that you start off by stating opinions like they are facts. But let's think about it: if religion didn't appeal to our innate sense of morality, it would not have survived this long, hell, it would not have lasted five minutes. Whilst there are some people who are sociopaths and others who are altruists, I believe that the average person is more good than bad, and will try to help his fellow being more often than not, without any desire for grand incentives.
format_quote Originally Posted by Justufy
No No no.. I think the main reason why he said most atheists and so forth are arrogant is because they come here, on an Islamic forum, it’s not an atheist forum or any other kind of forum, it is an Islamic board, so these people come here to post provocative posts.
Heres the argument for the arrogance of non muslim forum members here.
premise 1: There are non muslim members on this board.
premise 2: they are either here to gather information about the Islamic religion or are here to denigrate, preach their own way of thought and try to instigate doubt.
premise 3: all of what they have said is not about knowing the Islamic religion, it is on the contrary opposing many of its principles and attacking core beliefs here on an Islamic board.
Premise 4: therefore the users here have an agenda in mind, and are arrogant to think they can influence anyone here.
1. Yes, I'll give you this one
2. Gathering information and a little thing called 'discussion and debate' I don't know if you've heard of it but it involves more than one opinion
3. I know the religion quite well having lived as a Muslim for most of my life
4. I wouldn't dare to think so highly of myself. I think you will find that most of us just want to challenge ourselves and our own beliefs.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008
I don't think anybody here is trying to say that you (the atheists) just pretend to not believe in Allah when you know he actually is there. The word "arrogance" has been used even in the Qur'an with reference to the unbelievers. There are many verses such as:
Allah even called iblis (satan) arrogant when he refused to prostrate to Adam (PBUH)
(Allah) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
Surah Al-A'raf - 7:13
I find it quite amusing that Iblis was punished forever for not committing shirk whilst any human who commits shirk will be also punished forever!
I find it quite amusing that Iblis was punished forever for not committing shirk whilst any human who commits shirk will be also punished forever!
This is slightly off-topic but I just wanted to clarify that Iblis is not being punished for not committing Shirk. He was orderered to perform a prostration of respect to Adam and not a prostration of worship. The former type of prostration was allowed in those times, but it is no longer allowed in our times.
I'm not sure whether you knew this already, but I'm clarifying just in case.
Regards
"I spent thirty years learning manners, and I spent twenty years learning knowledge."
I find it quite amusing that Iblis was punished forever for not committing shirk whilst any human who commits shirk will be also punished forever!
Actually, he did commit a kind of shirk, he disobeyed and went against God's orders. Issue there was never of shirk, if he said that he cannot prostrate, because he doesn't want to do it for anyone except God, then it would have been a different story. But his reason was not this, but arrogance, he believed he was better than a human since he was created out of better substance in his opinion, and he is above that what God was asking him to do.
It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and obedience to Allâh, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allâh, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masâkîn (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salât, and gives the Zakât, and keep their word whenever they make a promise, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of persecution, hardship, and war. Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious).
Enlighten me please, why do you think that The Creator of the Universe does not exist?
Maybe by understanding your objection to the existence of God, then we can have more fruitful discussion.
I simply don't see any reason to believe, so I don't believe. Its the same reason neither of us believe in those forementioned fairies. We no compelling reason to. Of course its possible that those faeries do exist down there at the bottom of the garden... but possiblity of existence isn't any reason to believe something exists.
I simply don't see any reason to believe, so I don't believe. Its the same reason neither of us believe in those forementioned fairies. We no compelling reason to. Of course its possible that those faeries do exist down there at the bottom of the garden... but possiblity of existence isn't any reason to believe something exists.
The thread started with a logical proof for the existence of God but ultimately it has come down to the same thing, asking for more and more proofs. Well, its pretty clear that logic doesn't sound like the atheist's cup of tea, but the Qur'an being the word of Allah (Subhaanahu Wa'Taala) excels not just in logic but also in Science and Literature apart from other subjects. If you want proofs then I suggest you to have a thorough study of the Holy Book. The Qur'an is a book of both Signs and Science. It talks about break-through discoveries in the most simple of terms. The recent developments, advancements and discoveries which science has achieved are mentioned in the Qur'an and in case you forgot, the Qur'an was revealed almost 14 and half centuries ago and science is discovering all these things NOW. I don't remember every verse where such things are mentioned but I'll try and post some here:
The Qur'an talks about "The Big Bang Theory" and the origination of every being from water in the following verse:
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Surah Anbiya - 21:30
The Qur'an talks about the gradual stages of an infant in the mother's womb and you can refer to any biologist if you doubt that the embryo does take the shape of a leech in one of the stages of its growth
We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed
Surah Hajj - 22:05
The Qur'an talks about "Brackish Water", the barrier between seawater and fresh water, which is a very recent discovery
It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
Surah Furqan - 25:53
The Qur'an also talks about the functions of mountains on earth which science recently discovered, all of it, to be true.
And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you
Surah Nahl - 16:15
Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
And the mountains as pegs?
Surah Naba - 78:06-07
There are many more verses in the Qur'an which talk about Science. I suggest you to get a copy of "Miracles of the Qur'an" by Harun Yahya and "The Qur'an and Modern Science : Conflict or Conciliation" by Dr. Zakir Naik.
The Qur'an was revealed to a man who was illiterate over 1400 years ago. These verses also refute the claims that the Qur'an was written by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Mere Arabs having such high knowledge of science without any advanced state-of-the-art equipment which is available to us today doesn't sound logical to me. The book speaks for itself that it has been written by the One who knows everything, the One who created all of them and is also sustaining them. It definitely gives the proof of a being who knows everything.
Last edited by Ali_008; 12-16-2009 at 02:50 AM.
If Allah helps you, none can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, who is there after Him that can help you? And in Allah (Alone) let believers put their trust.
Surah Ale Imran : 160
It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:
The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) climbed up Uhud, accompanied by Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthmaan, and the mountain shook with them. He struck it with his foot and said: “Stand firm, O Uhud, for there is no one on you but a Prophet or a Siddeeq or two martyrs.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3483)
Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Taala) does not inspire seeking forgiveness in a slave whom he wishes to punish.
I simply don't see any reason to believe, so I don't believe. Its the same reason neither of us believe in those forementioned fairies. We no compelling reason to. Of course its possible that those faeries do exist down there at the bottom of the garden... but possiblity of existence isn't any reason to believe something exists.
Aha. Now it's clear to me.
So for you, whether god exists or not is completely inconsequential.
For you, the issue of the existence of god warrants similar seriousness as whether fairies exist.
I will remember this next time we are having the discussion about the existence of god, so i can reciprocate your level of seriousness when approaching the subject.
I do feel sorry for the other brothers though, who have made great efforts in explaining why god must exist and wrote volumes of arguments, meanwhile it turns out that for the atheists it completely does not matter whether god exists.
I'm sure some atheists here hold more concern over whether Gods exist than I do. But for myself, yes. I am not very concerned with the existence of Gods. I am far more concerned with the mindset of the people who invent or adopt belief in these gods and how they are likely to act on those beliefs.
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 12-16-2009 at 09:38 PM.
No.. we just know what logic, and logical proofs, are.
Brother, firstly you clear one thing to me. You claim to be a Buddhist but still you taking the stand of the atheists. What are you actually, a Buddhist, an Atheist or a third kind?
And to all my Atheist Brothers & Sisters, You guys keep saying that God has done wrong and our proofs don't sound logical to you. Just tell me what those things are. Where did Allah go wrong (nauzbillah)? and What's so illogical in our statements?
If Allah helps you, none can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, who is there after Him that can help you? And in Allah (Alone) let believers put their trust.
Surah Ale Imran : 160
It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:
The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) climbed up Uhud, accompanied by Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthmaan, and the mountain shook with them. He struck it with his foot and said: “Stand firm, O Uhud, for there is no one on you but a Prophet or a Siddeeq or two martyrs.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3483)
Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Taala) does not inspire seeking forgiveness in a slave whom he wishes to punish.
And to all my Atheist Brothers & Sisters, You guys keep saying that God has done wrong and our proofs don't sound logical to you. Just tell me what those things are. Where did Allah go wrong (nauzbillah)? and What's so illogical in our statements?
We don't believe that God has done anything wrong since we don't believe there is a God.
If you read the original post it posits that since there are natural laws it means that there has to be a God. One example given is that of gravity.
To say that since gravity exists there has to be a God is not logic and it most certainly is not proof.
We don't believe that God has done anything wrong since we don't believe there is a God.
If you read the original post it posits that since there are natural laws it means that there has to be a God. One example given is that of gravity.
To say that since gravity exists there has to be a God is not logic and it most certainly is not proof.
What about this post? How did Science's greatest and latest achievements show up in a book which is 1400 years old?
If Allah helps you, none can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, who is there after Him that can help you? And in Allah (Alone) let believers put their trust.
Surah Ale Imran : 160
It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:
The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) climbed up Uhud, accompanied by Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthmaan, and the mountain shook with them. He struck it with his foot and said: “Stand firm, O Uhud, for there is no one on you but a Prophet or a Siddeeq or two martyrs.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3483)
Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Taala) does not inspire seeking forgiveness in a slave whom he wishes to punish.
I put as much credence in those as I do Nostradamus. People interpret them to mean what they want them to mean, and many of the interpretations are quite a stretch.
Since you are very respectful and polite I don't want to offend you but the way I, and I would presume other non-muslims see it, they didn't.
The believer reads it into the text via expectation and confirmation bias. It is a matter of perspective.
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I put as much credence in those as I do Nostradamus. People interpret them to mean what they want them to mean, and many of the interpretations are quite a stretch.
Hmm, I know where you're going. I can definitely say no Muslim can claim that he has total knowledge of the Allah ,His deen and Islam. Its a limitless ocean of knowledge. There are still parts of Islam which can't be explained and the knowledge of such things lies with Allah alone. The verses that I gave quoted and other similar verses belong there. Their meaning was not known till Science made these discoveries. And Muslims won't debate over it either because we know that we have limited understanding and the matter which is unknown to us now is a part of Allah's plan. He (Subhaanahu Wa Taala) will make it clear to us whenever he wishes. Its not what we want or what we want to interpret it as, its what it actually means.
If I take the perspective of the two of you then I can say that I can never understand any religion. Both of you are way critical about God. Even if somebody's gonna show you a proof, you'll watch it while thinking "I know God doesn't exist. He doesn't. No chance. Zip zap. Ultimate Revelation. There is no God. I'm right. No Allah." if you have such a point of view then may God help you. If you want to learn something then make up your mind that you are a learner not a teacher.
Its like I show you a white paper and tell you that its white but you call it pink and you give your justification that whats white for you may not be white for everybody else or I won't believe its white just because you're saying it.
If Allah helps you, none can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, who is there after Him that can help you? And in Allah (Alone) let believers put their trust.
Surah Ale Imran : 160
It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:
The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) climbed up Uhud, accompanied by Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthmaan, and the mountain shook with them. He struck it with his foot and said: “Stand firm, O Uhud, for there is no one on you but a Prophet or a Siddeeq or two martyrs.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3483)
Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Taala) does not inspire seeking forgiveness in a slave whom he wishes to punish.
Both of you are way critical about God. Even if somebody's gonna show you a proof, you'll watch it while thinking "I know God doesn't exist
Not at all. In fact I used to be a religious person.
I just found it difficult to believe that an all powerful being felt the need to be worshiped by beings it had created, and then failed so miserably in getting that worship.
Why would God make it so that the most important factor in what religion you choose is what religion your parents are? If Islam is the true religion then why does God make it so that the vast majority of the population of this world is going to hell mainly because of who their parents are? Why should someone born in Bangladesh or Iran have a better chance of eternal paradise than someone from South Africa or Brazil simply because they were raised to believe something different?
If there is a God why is part of the "test" to get into heaven having to pick the right religion? What exactly is this test supposed to prove about the people?
I find the whole premise of religion to be flawed as I don't believe that there is an omnipotent being, and I most certainly don't believe that anyone that could create the universe would be so inefficient at teaching people about how to properly worship him (much less actually require such worship).
Not at all. In fact I used to be a religious person.
I just found it difficult to believe that an all powerful being felt the need to be worshiped by beings it had created, and then failed so miserably in getting that worship.
Allah doesn't need our worship brother. He is free of all wants, we are the ones who need him for our own well being. He deserves to be worshiped for all that He is. We are asked to worship Him unconditionally because he is really worth unconditional love for all the blessings He has poured on us. And He hasn't failed in getting Himself worshiped. He provided humans with a limited free-will and some of them couldn't/didn't worship him. Its their failure not His and inshAllah on the Day of Judgment He will tell every soul what it has earned.
Why would God make it so that the most important factor in what religion you choose is what religion your parents are? If Islam is the true religion then why does God make it so that the vast majority of the population of this world is going to hell mainly because of who their parents are? Why should someone born in Bangladesh or Iran have a better chance of eternal paradise than someone from South Africa or Brazil simply because they were raised to believe something different?
This is not rational at all. You talk as if you are a puppet in your parents' hands. I'm surprised that you being an Atheist are having this doubt. You chose to be an atheist yourself, did you parents imbibe these atheistic thoughts in your head?? You made use of your conscience and every other human on this earth has that facility with him to choose his own way.
If there is a God why is part of the "test" to get into heaven having to pick the right religion? What exactly is this test supposed to prove about the people?
Allah is Al-Adl, The Just. He made the concept of the test so that there can be differentiation between good and evil. Ask this question to yourself. Who's the one figure who served humanity and you respect him for that? Now, can that person whom you idolise be held equal with a monster like Adolf Hitler?
I find the whole premise of religion to be flawed as I don't believe that there is an omnipotent being, and I most certainly don't believe that anyone that could create the universe would be so inefficient at teaching people about how to properly worship him (much less actually require such worship).
Brother you first come to terms with recognising Him, we'll talk about worshiping Him after that.
In Sis skye's words, all the best.
If Allah helps you, none can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, who is there after Him that can help you? And in Allah (Alone) let believers put their trust.
Surah Ale Imran : 160
It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:
The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) climbed up Uhud, accompanied by Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthmaan, and the mountain shook with them. He struck it with his foot and said: “Stand firm, O Uhud, for there is no one on you but a Prophet or a Siddeeq or two martyrs.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3483)
Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Taala) does not inspire seeking forgiveness in a slave whom he wishes to punish.
Brother, firstly you clear one thing to me. You claim to be a Buddhist but still you taking the stand of the atheists. What are you actually, a Buddhist, an Atheist or a third kind?
.
Like all Buddhists I am an atheist, at least in terms of a single, omnipotent Creator god (and I personally don't believe in any other variety, either). Buddhism is fundamentality incompatible with the existence if such a being not just dogmatically but logically.
As many atheists view Buddhism in much the same regard as theistic religions, you'll tend to find my contributions agree with more 'scientific' atheists on some things but not on others. You and I would happily agree on the importance of faith, for example, while perhaps they might not!
And to all my Atheist Brothers & Sisters, You guys keep saying that God has done wrong and our proofs don't sound logical to you. Just tell me what those things are. Where did Allah go wrong (nauzbillah)? and What's so illogical in our statements?
It is not a case of whether an argument 'sounds' logical, but whether it IS logical. This really isn't the place for 'Argumentation 101' but logic is a formalized structure, not just whether an argument sounds good. In general terms, though, even logically structured arguments fail on BOTH sides of this debate because the other side doesn't accept even the starting assumptions the other takes for granted. These assumptions can often even be viewed as 'begging the question', that is 'proving' God exists (or doesn't) only by quietly assuming that He does (or doesn't).
I think the point has already been made that no atheist would suggest 'God went wrong'. Atheists believe it is arguments (made by human beings) that God EXISTS that are wrong, not that God is wrong!
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