The reason I started this thread is because in my opinion Roman Catholics, especially Roman Catholic Priests and Seminarians revert at a higher rate than any other Christian Denomination.
I will answer for myself as to why it was so easy for me to revert (although it took me a long time). It is because I believe Roman Catholicism to be the oldest Christian Denomination and is still the closest to what Christianity was supposed to be.
There are no prayers, practices or beliefs in Islam that a Roman Catholic would find to be strange or Alien. A Roman Catholic finds everything in Islam to be very familiar and not significantly different from what a practicing Roman Catholic does.
For a Roman Catholic to revert requires no changes of life style, it is a return to what a person was supposed to have been doing if they were a Practicing Roman Catholic. A Roman Catholic is well prepared to enter Islam, once they realize that what Islam teaches is inline with what Roman Catholicism originally taught. It only became separated from Islamic practices when the frills and rituals had been added by Popes and refomists.
I believe the more a Roman Catholic learns about Roman Catholicism the more receptive he becomes to Islam. This may be why it is so common for Priests and Seminarians to revert.
Uncle, and jazaakillah khair for sharing this information, which has come as a surprise to me. I had assumed that Roman Catholics would be the least likely to revert, simply because there is more shirk, eg praying to a plethora of saints for various purposes etc, and thus the beliefs were further away from Islam?
However, that could purely be my lack of understanding of Roman Catholicism.
For a Roman Catholic to revert requires no changes of life style, it is a return to what a person was supposed to have been doing if they were a Practicing Roman Catholic. A Roman Catholic is well prepared to enter Islam, once they realize that what Islam teaches is inline with what Roman Catholicism originally taught. It only became separated from Islamic practices when the frills and rituals had been added by Popes and refomists.
That+s an interesting theory, If I may, I'd like to ask you what you mean by Islamic practices that Roman catholicism supposedly got separated from. Is it moral values, ways to worship or the actualy beliefs, strict non-trinitarian monotheism?
Uncle, and jazaakillah khair for sharing this information, which has come as a surprise to me. I had assumed that Roman Catholics would be the least likely to revert, simply because there is more shirk, eg praying to a plethora of saints for various purposes etc, and thus the beliefs were further away from Islam?
However, that could purely be my lack of understanding of Roman Catholicism.
That is a strange phenomena unique with Catholics. It is based upon Catholic tradition of "Communion of Saints" in which it is believed Saints can hear what we on earth say. A Saint is defined as any person assumed to be in heaven. Catholics do not see it as praying to the Saints, but rather as asking them to plead with Allaah(swt) on their behalf. It is Shirk, but a Catholic does not see they are praying to someone other than Allaah(swt), in their view it is no different than asking a living person to make Du'a for them.
If they did understand it as being the praying to idols, it most likely would be a huge stumbling block in their seeing the beauty and truth of Islam.
That+s an interesting theory, If I may, I'd like to ask you what you mean by Islamic practices that Roman catholicism supposedly got separated from. Is it moral values, ways to worship or the actualy beliefs, strict non-trinitarian monotheism?
Catholics have some very Islamic Practices, if they follow Roman Catholicism properly.
The value and need of fasting, including a 40 day fast annually.
A washing before praying (Blessing ones self with Holy Water) which in many ways is similar to Wudu, at least in intent.
Daily Prayers at specific times, although a Catholic's prayers do not coincide exactly with the times of Islamic Prayer, there are 5 required prayers. 1 upon awakening, 1 before each of the 3 meals and one at bed time.
Although Roman Catholics do not make it mandatory for pilgrimage the value of it is seen and Catholics are encouraged to make at least one pilgrimage in their life times.
Prostration in prayer, although no longer done except for special prayers, it was a part of Roman Catholic prayers in the past and some Roman Catholics still do so when Praying at home.
The use of Rosary Beads in prayer, very similar to Dhiker beads and used much the same.
Belief in Prophets and Angels
Belief in a final judgment day.
Belief in punishment for all of their sins, Catholics believe that all will spend some time in hellfire (Purgatory) until they are cleansed of their sins. Interesting enough the only unforgivable sin a Roman Catholic recognizes is the worship of any thing other then the One God(swt)
Belief that none will be punished greater than their sins, but will be rewarded many times over for their good deeds.
If a person studies Catholicism they will find differences of opinion about the Trinity. While Catholics are essentially trinitarian, if a Catholic has sincere doubts about the Trinity he is not required to believe in it or even pretend he believes in it. The concept of the Trinity in Roman Catholicism was not always a part of Catholic teaching.
The concept of the Trinity in Roman Catholicism was not always a part of Catholic teaching.
The concept of the Trinity became codified as set dogma of orthodoxy in the then catholic (meaning universal) Church before there were any divisions within Christianity into Roman Catholic or Orthodox subgroups and more than 1000 years before the advent of the protestant denominations, so what you have said of Catholics would be true of all Christian groups.
^^So all of those were old practices and kind of abandoned now?
That's interesting. I always thought that only the Unitarian can have such belief about Trinity.
One more thing about the Catholics confessing to priests to forgive their sins, was this an old practice too? or its newly invented?
A Catholic can doubt the Trinity and still be a Catholic, if their doubt is based upon honest and sincere research.
Confession to a Priest had a gradual evolution. It is difficult to trace specific dates. But it seems to have originated quite early apparently in the early days it was an accepted practice to confess sins to a trusted elder in order to get advice on how to avoid repeating the sin. But, confession to Priests seems to date back to when an ordained priesthood was first established. The idea that the Priest is the one doing the forgiving is still developing. Most Catholics do not believe the Priest does the forgiving, but it is required to confess to one. There are alternatives that can be used instead of confessing to a Priest if a Priest is not available and the person is facing death. Such as they can confess to any other Catholic or they can recite a sincere act of contrition directly to God(swt)
The reason I started this thread is because in my opinion Roman Catholics, especially Roman Catholic Priests and Seminarians revert at a higher rate than any other Christian Denomination.
Maybe answer from roman catholic will be useful?
Unless You give firm sources for that, I will treat it as anegdote.
I believe the more a Roman Catholic learns about Roman Catholicism the more receptive he becomes to Islam. This may be why it is so common for Priests and Seminarians to revert.
Actually how many faithful catholics You know? I know dozens. And trust me that they have very huge knowledge about our own religion and other religions. Their opinion about other religions is firm, actually the more knowledge they have, the more they are critical to other faiths (although that judaism and protestantism are most criticized faiths by traditional catholics). For a traditional catholic, the attitude towards islam is unchangable and firm since about crusades. Nothing really changed.
The reason why nowadays some catholics convert to islam, protestantism, buddhism, become atheists, agnostics?
It's so called "Council (vaticano secundo) spirit" (not the Vaticano Secundo Council, but the radically liberal interpretation of it) which put confusion into the hearts of majority of catholics.
This country is dying because of a lack of men, not a lack of programs.
Unless You give firm sources for that, I will treat it as anegdote.
Actually how many faithful catholics You know? I know dozens. And trust me that they have very huge knowledge about our own religion and other religions. Their opinion about other religions is firm, actually the more knowledge they have, the more they are critical to other faiths (although that judaism and protestantism are most criticized faiths by traditional catholics). For a traditional catholic, the attitude towards islam is unchangable and firm since about crusades. Nothing really changed.
The reason why nowadays some catholics convert to islam, protestantism, buddhism, become atheists, agnostics?
It's so called "Council (vaticano secundo) spirit" (not the Vaticano Secundo Council, but the radically liberal interpretation of it) which put confusion into the hearts of majority of catholics.
Well I was raised Roman Catholic, served as an alter boy, was in CYO and was a KofC and at one point I was a Seminarian. It was during my time as a Seminarian I chose to leave Catholicism. Most of my family is Catholic as are nearly all of my friends I grew up with. I am still friends with several Priests and one Bishop, who was a childhood friend. Although it has been about 50 years since I left Catholicism and some of my memory may be faulty along with some changes in the Church I am posting as memory serves me.
Perhaps some other Catholic reverts will add to this thread and be more up to date as to what Catholicism is today.
A high proportion of the 1,500 to 2,500 converts to Islam every year
are Catholics. According to Sarah Jacobs, a former Catholic who is now a
Muslim, the leap between the two faiths is not as great as it seems.
She was confirmed in the Catholic Church, the faith of her mother, at 13.
When one of her brothers married a Muslim she was horrified, but three years
ago she followed him, to the dismay of the rest of her family. She
said: "What appealed to me was the incredible simplicity and clarity of
you haven't put a flaw in the argument though as to why the numbers of converts is so huge especially in this day and age when Islam is so maligned!
all the best
Nor is the argument more than antecodotal at present.
First, Thus far the only actual numbers we have to work with are "A high proportion of the 1,500 to 2,500 converts to Islam every year are Catholics."
I have to believe that the number of converts to Islam are significantly higher than that. But let us say I accept it. If I high percentage of that number of converts is Catholic -- 75% would be a high number -- then if we figure the high number of 2000 converts that means that a grand total of 1500 people converted from being Catholic to Muslim in a year. That is actually an infinitesimally small number compared both to the total number of Catholics in the world and to the total number of Muslims in the world. And what, all other converts world wide total only 500. Something is wrong either with the figures or the way you have presented them. Because they just don't add up.
Second, I'm inclined to accept Brother Woodrow's thesis that of those people who convert to Islam from another religion, that more are coming out of Catholicism than any other single group. But, I don't think we've hit on the reason for it yet. Many of the things that he cited as being true with regard to Catholicism are equally true of other Christian groups. To explain why they are coming out of Catholicism and not, say, Pentecostalims. We have to find out what is true of Catholicism that is not true of these other Christians groups. And those things have not yet been identified.
Nor is the argument more than antecodotal at present.
First, Thus far the only actual numbers we have to work with are "A high proportion of the 1,500 to 2,500 converts to Islam every year are Catholics."
I have to believe that the number of converts to Islam are significantly higher than that. But let us say I accept it. If I high percentage of that number of converts is Catholic -- 75% would be a high number -- then if we figure the high number of 2000 converts that means that a grand total of 1500 people converted from being Catholic to Muslim in a year. That is actually an infinitesimally small number compared both to the total number of Catholics in the world and to the total number of Muslims in the world. And what, all other converts world wide total only 500. Something is wrong either with the figures or the way you have presented them. Because they just don't add up.
Second, I'm inclined to accept Brother Woodrow's thesis that of those people who convert to Islam from another religion, that more are coming out of Catholicism than any other single group. But, I don't think we've hit on the reason for it yet. Many of the things that he cited as being true with regard to Catholicism are equally true of other Christian groups. To explain why they are coming out of Catholicism and not, say, Pentecostalims. We have to find out what is true of Catholicism that is not true of these other Christians groups. And those things have not yet been identified.
We don't know that she is speaking 'universally', perhaps it is only in her state, so it doesn't nullify which she says and certainly doesn't render it anecdotal (and if it is, then may I suggest you visit a comedy club more often)
as for what is true of Catholicism that isn't so of other branches in Christianity.. I have a few thesis but not particularly interested in another long winded debate..
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I assume its about England. Catholic there a minority, statistically the highest percentage of converts to Islam or any other religion would have to be Anglicans but in case of ISlam it's catholics.
We don't know that she is speaking 'universally', perhaps it is only in her state, so it doesn't nullify which she says and certainly doesn't render it anecdotal (and if it is, then may I suggest you visit a comedy club more often)
Then I was right: "Something is wrong either with the figures or the way you have presented them." The figures weren't universal, but you presented them as if they were.
And Woodrow's argument, thus far, is indeed anecdotal, as it comes from a collection of individual stories, but stories that so far are just isolated snapshots and, as of yet, don't present a whole picture of what is going on and the reasons behind it.
as for what is true of Catholicism that isn't so of other branches in Christianity.. I have a few thesis but not particularly interested in another long winded debate..
If you aren't going to share your theses, then what contribution do you plan to make to the discussion?
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Uncle, and jazaakillah khair for sharing this information, which has come as a surprise to me. I had assumed that Roman Catholics would be the least likely to revert, simply because there is more shirk, eg praying to a plethora of saints for various purposes etc, and thus the beliefs were further away from Islam?
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