Non Muslims, how do you explain the existence of the Quran/Sincerity of the Prophet?

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi

You believe that angels have no free will, but that men and djinn do have free will, right? (Surah 18:50)

yep, men and jinn have the god given free will to do what they want

format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

However you try, you will not be able to deny that Allah is outside you and whatever is outside you is an object for you. It does not need Hinduism or rocket-science to understand that whatever object you worship, that object is an idol for you. Therefore worship of Allah is idol worship. Your denying it simply flies in the face of facts.

what object, I see no object, have you lost your marbles?

don't reply back on this thread I'm opening a thread in the comparitive religion section called


Hinduism VS Islam

format_quote Originally Posted by abdulmājid

aye! What did you just say?

Just the guy whose certificate you need!

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx

I wanted to point something perhaps of interest to you K.Venu. Some Sufi orders in Islam have the same view of God and have chosen to worship God by trying to merge their conciousness with his holy being rather than have a set of rituals act as intermediaries to God; they, I suspect, believe they've gone beyond the need of rituals guiding their direction of worship. Just goes to show you the different ways people reach God.

I entirely agree with you that many Sufis have gone beyond dualism but so long as their followers are largely within the matrix of dogmatic Islam, Sufism is celebrated only by the romantics.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx

These comments about 8 limbed blue dolls only show the ignorance of some people...not to mention goes against instructions in the Quran of not insulting other people's Gods.

I really do not understand the Quranic instructions about not insulting other peoples’ Gods but by unfailingly saying that Islam is the only true religion, does the Quran do aught else but insult other religions?

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx

edit: i just re-read your last line and i don't think it's entirely accurate. How many hindus actualyl see beyond hte idol?

Relatively only a few people look, wish to look or have the capacity to look beyond idols. The idols are for the masses – popular Hinduism. It must also be remembered that Vedanta (comprising the more subtle teachings of Hinduism) is not a promise to the masses but to individuals who are ready to plunge into those subtle depths.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx

I think for the most part hindus around the world don't look beyond the character the idol represents and in this case I don't think hinduism is the 'home' for people who have reached your metaphorical shore.

You are right here. I should have said “Hinduism is also home to those who have reached …”

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx

One thing about Islam that probably should be emphasized is that it makes it easier for direct communication with God just because it's so strict on monotheism. I guess what I am trying to say is that the typical Muslim is closer to God than the typical Hindu because the Hindu is behind more 'veils' .

Your “closer to God” phrase appears to miss the point that God is that which the believers believe and if the idol worshipper believes his idol is God, then he would not have reason to believe he is far from God. However, Islam offers no prospect of closing the gap between God and the believer whereas Hinduism is all about the believer (worshiper) becoming one with the worshipped entity.

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble

Do you have to? It isn't a football match. And, with respect, nobody here seems to enough knowledge and understanding of both religions to make any meaninful 'vs' type comparisons.

You ask what ever you want in that relevent to hinduism/islam, it doesn't have to be comparison thread, saves having all these completely off topic posts here

format_quote Originally Posted by bhakti

And there goes another cheap shot! That the best you could do? Am i not justified in giving insane insaan an answer to his question?

ha? I expect that if your answers were 'justified' that you'd at least address insane insaan by her correct gender. You can't get the little things correct, and you expect that the bigger details dazzle us?

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimeen

I know this is not a hinduism thread, and will probably get hit for derailing, but someone told me hindus actually worship the private part of a man, I did a bit of research and found this. Is it true?? Tell me it's not. If it is I guess it's time you stop trying to ridicule Islam and muslims.

Please stand corrected. Hindus do not worship man’s private parts. But Hindus (and by Hindus, take it as a standing rule that it is meant “some Hindus” because not all Hindus are represented by any one mode of worship) do worship the generative principle of God or existence as symbolized anthropomorphically. Actually the complete generative principle symbolized anthropomorphically is represented in a phallic form (linga) arising from a vaginal form (yoni).

format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

Please stand corrected. Hindus do not worship man’s private parts. But Hindus (and by Hindus, take it as a standing rule that it is meant “some Hindus” because not all Hindus are represented by any one mode of worship) do worship the generative principle of God or existence as symbolized anthropomorphically. Actually the complete generative principle symbolized anthropomorphically is represented in a phallic form (linga) arising from a vaginal form (yoni).

I love how you try to portray it in complicated words...............

format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

?????????????????????

Gobbledegook!

What kind of belief is it, that cannot be explained simply?

format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

Please stand corrected. Hindus do not worship man’s private parts. But Hindus (and by Hindus, take it as a standing rule that it is meant “some Hindus” because not all Hindus are represented by any one mode of worship) do worship the generative principle of God or existence as symbolized anthropomorphically. Actually the complete generative principle symbolized anthropomorphically is represented in a phallic form (linga) arising from a vaginal form (yoni).

For anyone who's confused or dazzled by the language, in simple terms, yes.

format_quote Originally Posted by bhakti

Love for your God, the longing desire to picture him as your own little child whom you can cuddle in your arms goes far beyond reverence.

That made me laugh! I have no longing desire to picture God as a helpless child that has to be picked up, be so small as to fit in my arms and be cuddled! Glorified and Exalted be He, above that!

format_quote Originally Posted by bhakti

The problem is with your simplistic approach to the universe. You don't realize that the lump of faeces or a lump of gold or the computer in front of you or the stars far far away are actually images formed in your mind. Yup, the stars aren't far away. They are in your mind.

As you are in your mind?

format_quote Originally Posted by bhakti

When you look at an idol as God, what you are doing is conjuring God within the image because the idol itself is a projection made by the consciousness so you are free to impart whatever qualities you can to it. If you think the image is God, it is God. If you think it isn't, it simply isn't. Consciousness rules everything.

So, according to you, if someone says that a lump of faeces is god, it becomes god. Or a table, a tree, or a TV. You just don't see the ridiculousness and fallacy of what you're saying.

format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

However you try, you will not be able to deny that Allah is outside you and whatever is outside you is an object for you. It does not need Hinduism or rocket-science to understand that whatever object you worship, that object is an idol for you. Therefore worship of Allah is idol worship. Your denying it simply flies in the face of facts.

The inherent problem Hindus have here is that they conceive God to be an object, and cannot go beyond that taught constraint of theirs, because for centuries Hindus have carved their gods with their own hands and then worshipped them. To them, god cannot be anything but an object. That centuries old tradition and belief is fully imbibed in them, and their minds cannot ask whether that is actually the truth or not, is it possible to worship an All Powerful God who is not mixed up in His creation? Nor will they ask, how come our (Hindus') god couldn't even separate himself from his creation, and distinguish himself from them?

This idea now, of god being what you want him to be, you yourself are creating that idea of what you want him to be, in your mind. In non-duality, the creator god is arises from Brahman, so the creator god to you, is not only an object, but also was also created. What kind of a creator is it that was created from something himself?

The minute you yourself, or any person, starts defining what is or isn't God, that entity is not God, because you have created his definition yourself.

Muslims do not make up their definition of God to suit themselves, and we do not define God. We believe in Him as He has defined Himself:

"Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, Who is in need of none and of Whom all are in need
He begets not, nor was He begotten
And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." (Qur'an, Chapter 112)

I invite you to accept and believe in God as He has defined Himself.

Peace.

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z

Science rather is coming to the conclusion that God is ONE and thats it!

Rubbish... 'science' is coming to no conclusion regarding God (or gods) at all, and probably never will and never can. What 'models of God' have supposedly been 'eliminated'? Point us to the research papers, please.

Could you please provide me with European and Western Scientists accepting Hinduism in Large numbers... i can give you a list who are accepting Islam in Large numbers...

Go on then; it will need to be a long list. There are maybe, what, a couple of million scientists of assorted types in 'Europe and the West' at least? 'Large numbers' would be, what, a couple of hundred thousand of them maybe? If you are just thinking of the usual tired old list of Bucaille, Moore etc. (most of whom never actually converted anyway) you could no doubt find a list of just as many who became Wiccans or Scientologists.

Of course, many thousands of scientists have become muslims, just as many thousands have become Christians, and followers of the Dharmic religions, and agnostics, humanists and atheists - just as in any other sphere of life.

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

what object, I see no object, have you lost your marbles?

don't reply back on this thread I'm opening a thread in the comparitive religion section called Hinduism VS Islam

Aadil, I think you have not yet started Hinduism vs. Islam thread.

My point is very simple. Is not everything that is outside you an object to you - whether you are able to see the object or not? Like you can't see germs, but still it is an object because it is outside you - maybe it is inside your body also, but the “you” talked about is the subject - what you get when you say "I". If Allah is outside you then He is an object, is He not? Whether He is actually an object is another matter, but as far as you are concerned, He is an object. So if you worship Him and He is an object for you, then you are indulging in idol worship. How is it difficult to understand this?

format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

My point is very simple. Is not everything that is outside you an object to you - whether you are able to see the object or not? Like you can't see germs, but still it is an object because it is outside you - maybe it is inside your body also, but the “you” talked about is the subject - what you get when you say "I". If Allah is outside you then He is an object, is He not? Whether He is actually an object is another matter, but as far as you are concerned, He is an object.

Thank you for illustrating what I said in my post beautifully!

format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

So if you worship Him and He is an object for you, then you are indulging in idol worship.

As above.

Peace.