If Jesus didn't die on the cross, then when he presented himself to the original apostles, he could not have been in the physical condition to make them think that he was resurrected from the dead, yet those original apostles who spent 3 years with Jesus set up the churches on the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.
Those same apostles willingly were put to death for their eyewitness testimony proving they truly believed they had seen, talked with and touched Jesus after he raised himself from the dead.
Jesus could not have lied nor could the disciples have, nor would God deceive them, so we are left with only one conclusion: Jesus died and resurrected and this is no difficulty for Jesus because He created the whole universe with the Father and by the Spirit in the Trinity of God.
The disciples were not deceived because there would have to be deception in multiple group appearances of Jesus, yet we know Satan is unable to do this because according to modern psychology and the historical record there has never been group hallucinations (seeing something that is not there) though individual hallucinations can occur. There are at least twelve accounts of different groups of individuals claiming to have seen Jesus resurrected bodily.
Paul said he spent time with Peter (for 15 days) and James a few years after the cross, later on with John, and they met up again on several occasions, who imparted to Paul the early creed of the gospel of salvation through the atonement by the precious blood of Jesus Christ and His resurrection unto eternal life they themselves had seen well testified in 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 and agreed by even most critical scholars this was truly Paul's very own words and writings.
Or one could say it this way...
Every single book of the New Testament (27 books)--by Matthew, Mark, Peter, James, John, Jude, Luke and Paul--speaks of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you believe Jesus didn't die and you think the original 11 apostles never founded the churches based on the death and resurrection of Jesus, then why wasn't anyone saying to the contrary, especially those 11 disciples who were in a position to know better than anyone for they had spent 3 years with Jesus and 40 days after he was resurrected?
There is no oral tradition or written record from or about them saying the churches were not actually founded on the death and resurrection of Jesus. And second generation apostles who knew Peter and John personally such as Clement of Rome and Polycarp also testified that this is what they taught. I am left with no option other than Jesus is God and proved it by His resurrection for no man can resurrect himself, or for that matter, another man unless He is God. Amen.
I am left with no option other than Jesus is God and proved it by His resurrection for no man can resurrect himself, or for that matter, another man unless He is God.
Greetings Parture,
I don't think only a man can't resurrect himself. A god also can't resurrect himself if he's dead (If I understood well the definition of dead).
Now if you say that Jesus is resurrected by another God, that could be more plausible.
Concerning the question if the crucifixion took place or not, there is a lot of arguments against the crucifixion also, and a lot of debates on this topic. You can find them in this forum or in other sites.
Last edited by marwen; 07-28-2010 at 01:03 AM.
"O you who believe! Fear ALLAH as He should be feared" [aal 'Imraan, 102]
No!
and I imagine you should be more adamant about that than Muslims, for you consider Jesus to be your God, imagine the death of god after choosing ineffectual apostles who couldn't shoulder his message, that he had to come back to whisper his abrogations in a charlatan's ears!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
When Jesus went into Abraham's bosom, it's simply a place of rest. Jesus agreed with the Father and the Spirit before the world began that Jesus would be the one that would go down to the good side of Hades.
The disciple whom Jesus said He loved most quoted Jesus saying, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17.5).
When Jesus went into Abraham's bosom, it's simply a place of rest. Jesus agreed with the Father and the Spirit before the world began that Jesus would be the one that would go down to the good side of Hades.
The disciple whom Jesus said He loved most quoted Jesus saying, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17.5).
these convoluted tall tales are more illogical than Hinduism.. did your god speak english btw, 'cause we are under the impression the mangod is a middle easterner from west Asia?
are you trying to convince us or yourself with your silliness? we have a couple of other annoying bible thumpers here, how about grabbing them and taking them back to the dark ages of christianity somewhere far away from the rest of us?
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I saw a very similar post to this one in another forum with some few changes.
Are you the same "Parture" in Islamic-Life forums ?
can't be that many fools left in the world believing in this nonsense.. christianity is a dwindling religion... visit any western country on the web and look at their population stats, Christianity is becoming obsolete at a rate of one percent annually .. another 60~70 yrs christians will be confined to small loculated tribes of folks who prefer to bury their face in the sand than possess simple common sense!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Parture, ask yourself this question: WHY would Jesus have to pay the price for sin? Think about that question a little bit.
The whole sum and substance of Christianity boils down to the atonement. Jesus paid for your sins on the cross. You could not pay the price, so Jesus stepped in and did it for you. He is therefore your Savior.
But, here is the problem with that line of thinking. God is omnipotent. He can forgive whomever. If Jesus had to die on the cross for your sins, then God really wasn't omnipotent was he? What kind of a sadistic God would make someone suffer such a horrible torment on behalf of other people to satisfy some kind of warped sense of justice? That is not the kind of God that is omnipotent. An omnipotent God can forgive you of your sins, he is not bound by a warped sadistic attempt to make someone else pay for your sins.
The Qur'an says that the Jews did not crucify Jesus but it was made to appear that they did. Allah swt took him up. He did not die on the cross.
Peace.
“All day I think about it, then at night I say it. Where did I come from, and what am I supposed to be doing? I have no idea. My soul is from elsewhere, I'm sure of that, and I intend to end up there.”
Why would Jesus have to pay for our sins? Because if we were to pay for them we would have to spend eternity in Hell. Even one little sin eternally separates you from God, leads to death and the second death which is Hell.
God is not unrighteous, He can't forgiven unrighteously. God really showed Himself omnipotent by being able to raise Himself from the grave.
There is more. God is personal and relationally like the 3 Persons in His Godhead and wants to be with His creation in person. He doesn't want to operate like an absentee landlord. There is nothing more intimate than what He did for us on the cross using this evil perpetrated against (even by those who deny His death, deity and resurrection) him for good to pay for the sins of the world. There is no greater love.
To me it is sadistic for someone to sin and no penalty have to be paid. When a criminal goes to jail they may have repented of their crime, but they still have to pay the penalty. How can God's standards be less than our own? Justice without penalty is without substance. Someone owes a debt. The creditor can forgive the debt but in so doing incurs the loss upon himself. If you are old and wise and had a child who committed a crime with the love that you have for the child would you go to jail in her place if you knew she really repented of her crime, so she could live out the rest of her life? This is what God does for us. This is the love of Christ. Would your god do this? Maybe he is powerless to be able to or too selfish to do so.
You still have the same problem presented in the opening post. God would not deceive the disciples, though Satan may try to, but group hallucinations are impossible and they didn't lie, so unless you are able to solve this problem, you can understand why Christians are Christians and many Muslims become Christians.
Jesus will return at the end of the 7 year Tribulation to destroy the wicked nations The Dome on the Rock will be destroyed before the 7 year Tribulation even commences and replaced with the 3rd Temple from where Christ will reign in person for 1000 years on earth. The temple is to be completed with 2300 days left to the 2,520 days of the Tribulation.
Christians are God's chosen people to reign with Him over the nations (Rev. 2.26): those believers who overcometh; whereas non-overcomer Christians lose this reward and disciplined and made ready for the New City afterwards. If you are not a Christian, you're not saved and if you are not saved you will be resurrected for Hell. You admit you want to be eternally separated from the God who paid for our sins and resurrected the 3rd day.
Christians don't believe the world is 10,000 years old. We believe it is billions of years old and the universe is 13.7 billion years.
We believe that 6000 years ago was the first Adamic man, that is, the first God-conscious man when God breathed the breath of life directly creating man's spirit, and when the spirit made contact with the body from dust (Gen. 2.7) the soul life was formed. Man became a living soul with a spirit and a body (Heb.4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23).
Christians don't believe the world is 10,000 years old. We believe it is billions of years old and the universe is 13.7 billion years.
We believe that 6000 years ago was the first Adamic man, that is, the first God-conscious man when God breathed the breath of life directly creating man's spirit, and when the spirit made contact with the body from dust (Gen. 2.7) the soul life was formed. Man became a living soul with a spirit and a body (Heb.4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23).
sure you do.. whatever you say-- you must be really proud of your accomplishment
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
A psychiatrist can't save you and get you to be logical to realize that since the churches were built on the resurrection by the original disciples and group hallucinations are impossible and the disciples didn't lie and Jesus wouldn't look much like a risen Messiah all beat up if hadn't died, then the problem must be a spirit of hostility and disobedience to God in you.
Why would Jesus have to pay for our sins? Because if we were to pay for them we would have to spend eternity in Hell. Even one little sin eternally separates you from God, leads to death and the second death which is Hell.
God is not unrighteous, He can't forgiven unrighteously. God really showed Himself omnipotent by being able to raise Himself from the grave.
There is more. God is personal and relationally like the 3 Persons in His Godhead and wants to be with His creation in person. He doesn't want to operate like an absentee landlord. There is nothing more intimate than what He did for us on the cross using this evil perpetrated against (even by those who deny His death, deity and resurrection) him for good to pay for the sins of the world. There is no greater love.
To me it is sadistic for someone to sin and no penalty have to be paid. When a criminal goes to jail they may have repented of their crime, but they still have to pay the penalty. How can God's standards be less than our own? Justice without penalty is without substance. Someone owes a debt. The creditor can forgive the debt but in so doing incurs the loss upon himself. If you are old and wise and had a child who committed a crime with the love that you have for the child would you go to jail in her place if you knew she really repented of her crime, so she could live out the rest of her life? This is what God does for us. This is the love of Christ. Would your god do this? Maybe he is powerless to be able to or too selfish to do so.
You still have the same problem presented in the opening post. God would not deceive the disciples, though Satan may try to, but group hallucinations are impossible and they didn't lie, so unless you are able to solve this problem, you can understand why Christians are Christians and many Muslims become Christians.
Jesus will return at the end of the 7 year Tribulation to destroy the wicked nations The Dome on the Rock will be destroyed before the 7 year Tribulation even commences and replaced with the 3rd Temple from where Christ will reign in person for 1000 years on earth. The temple is to be completed with 2300 days left to the 2,520 days of the Tribulation.
Christians are God's chosen people to reign with Him over the nations (Rev. 2.26): those believers who overcometh; whereas non-overcomer Christians lose this reward and disciplined and made ready for the New City afterwards. If you are not a Christian, you're not saved and if you are not saved you will be resurrected for Hell. You admit you want to be eternally separated from the God who paid for our sins and resurrected the 3rd day.
Here are just a few thoughts for you. Who says that even the tiniest sin must be PAID for? Who says that it must be paid for or else you would spend eternity in hell? Paid how? Who says that you can't repent? These are all things that the church has promulgated over the years. God is omnipotent. If you repent, he can forgive you. It is up to Allah swt, not a bunch of rules promulgated by a church.
I'm not saying that there is no penalty paid for a sin. But think about it, if you repent and God forgives you for it, why does there have to be a blood-letting to cover it up? That is something that makes no sense. God has power to forgive, he is omniscient, he knows your heart, he is omnipotent, he is all powerful. He can forgive you.
You talk about sin like it is a debit/credit situation, that if a sin is forgiven it still has to be paid for by someone. Says who? You? The Catholic church? When a debt is forgiven by a creditor it is wiped off the books. It is not paid by someone else.
You also keep saying that God would not deceive the apostles. My friend, you need to study the history of the bible and the gospels especially. Those accounts are NOT eye witness. They were written with an agenda many years after the fact. The oldest gospel is Mark. The original ending of Mark abruptly ends with the tomb being empty but there is no account of anyone seeing Jesus in the oldest ending of Mark. The accounts of him being seen by Mary and others were added later.
You also cite Revelation 2:26 that Christians will rule with Jesus and he will destroy the rest of us. Whatever. Take a real serious look at the book of Revelation. Do some objective study. It was in the bible, then out of the bible, then in the canon then out of the canon, etc. Can you really rely on the book of Revelation? Many great christians felt that it was not canonical. Did Martin Luther believe it should have been in the bible? IIRC I don't think he did. Revelation has never really been accepted by all christians as part of the canon, is it allegorical? The early christians thought it should not be taken literally. I wouldn't stake my salvation on the book of Revelation. It is doubtful that it should have been part of the new testament.
YOu also say that there will be a tribulation and the temple will be rebuilt and the dome of the rock destroyed in a certain number of days, etc. Says who? You? Are you a prophet? You are just imposing some form of evangelical interpretation on the text of the bible. I can also cite a number of Christian preterists who make a persuasive case that those things have already occurred. Who is right? YOu? The pretereists?
You are not going to persuade anyone here that you have come to this forum with some special knowledge that we need to pay attention to you. Sorry. These arguements have been handled before.
Peace and Love.
“All day I think about it, then at night I say it. Where did I come from, and what am I supposed to be doing? I have no idea. My soul is from elsewhere, I'm sure of that, and I intend to end up there.”
A psychiatrist can't save you and get you to be logical to realize that since the churches were built on the resurrection by the original disciples and group hallucinations are impossible and the disciples didn't lie and Jesus wouldn't look much like a risen Messiah all beat up if hadn't died, then the problem must be a spirit of hostility and disobedience to God in you.
aha
how is all that working out for you? why not start a tent by the airport lawdy lawdy and heal some lepers .. hallelujah praise the lawd
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Posting Permissions
aboard, have you seen a psychiatrist?
Bookmarks