for christians : a question about salvation.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

But if Jesus IS God, then the claim is that God sacrificed himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind (about man's salvation), and not only do I take issue with the claim, but it is completely incoherent.

I take Islam's side when it comes to views about Jesus. The Christian view has come to be, "praise Jesus, pray to Jesus, worship Jesus," rather than God. And, claiming he is God, why would he be considered "God's son" in the Bible? And as far as I know, it's never mentioned directly in the Bible that Jesus is meant to be the personification of God.

As well, if God were down here, how could he be watching from up there? I don't think God would appreciate such idolatry.

format_quote Originally Posted by Danah

Yeah believe in God is essential but they differ in the work part. All Muslims do believe that work without faith is nothing, the same as faith without work is nothing.

I do agree with what you said about having faith in God should be reflected on our conducts and actions in our lives. You might not met any of those who believe in faith only as a way to salvation but I am sure there are some who follow Paul's view of salvation. I am looking forward to read what Pouring Rain will share with me.

Hi Danah

I found this site (a Roman Catholic source), which you might find interesting.
It argues that although Paul seems to emphasize FAITH as the means for salvation and James seems to stress the importance of DEEDS, both in fact share the same opinion that BOTH faith and deeds are needed.

Many readers of the New Testament misinterpret both Paul and James, thus concluding that their statements about faith and works contradict each other. That is simply not true! There are differences in emphasis, but no contradictions in teaching, if one understands both properly.

Paul and James agree that both "faith" and "works" are essential parts of Christian life, although they have different roles. Paul and James also agree that salvation ultimately comes from God and from Jesus Christ, not from us or anything that we do.

However, since Paul and James wrote to different audiences in different situations about different problems, their letters have different presuppositions and different emphases. To combat the opinion of some people that circumcision and other "works of the law" were necessary for Gentile converts to early Christianity, Paul stresses that the foundation of our salvation is the death of Jesus, not the laws of Moses. To combat the opinion of other people that professing faith in God is enough for salvation, James stresses that Christians must put their faith into concrete action.

[...]

The common but incorrect interpretation, leading to an apparent contradiction between Paul and James:

Paul supposedly said: Justification comes not by our good works, but by our faith in Jesus alone.
James supposedly said: Justification comes by our good works, not by our faith in God.

Errors with these interpretations:

1. Paul is not talking about "good works" in the sense of "charitable acts"; rather, he says "works of the Law" (Gal 2:16; 3:2-12; Rom 3:28), which refers to the Jewish/Mosaic laws on circumcision, sacrifices, dietary restrictions, etc.
When James says "works," he means acts of charity = care for widows, orphans & the poor, love for neighbors, etc. (James 1:27; 2:8; 2:15-16)

2. Paul is not opposed to "good works" or "charitable actions"; he sees them as necessary consequences (although not the foundation) of authentic Christian living (see Gal 5–6; Rom 12–15).
Conversely, James is not opposed to faith; he presupposes it, and then stresses that authentic faith must be put into action (James 2:14-26).

3. Paul is not talking primarily about our "faith in Jesus," but rather the "faith of Jesus" in God (i.e., Jesus' own trusting in God; see Gal 2:16, 20; Rom 3:22, 26); based on this foundation, our faith in God/Jesus is a necessary (but secondary) response.
In contrast, James does mean people’s faith, primarily believing in God (2:23) but also believing in Jesus (2:1).

4. Paul does not presuppose the same definition of "faith" as James does; for Paul, "faith" means "trusting" God, or "entrusting oneself" to God's plans (Rom 4:3-22).
For James, "faith" is more of an intellectual assent to theological truths, e.g., "believing that God is one" (2:19; even demons can "believe" in God's existence).

5. Paul did not write the word "alone" in Rom 3:28; Martin Luther was the one who added the word "allein" in his German Bible translation.
James does not write "by works alone" but stresses "not by faith alone"; he maintains that both have to go together.

This, to me, probably sums up the faith/deeds issue the best:

Paul is not opposed to "good works" or "charitable actions"; he sees them as necessary consequences (although not the foundation) of authentic Christian living (see Gal 5–6; Rom 12–15).
Conversely, James is not opposed to faith; he presupposes it, and then stresses that authentic faith must be put into action (James 2:14-26).


How do you, as a Muslim, feels about those statements? Can you relate to them or even agree with them?

format_quote Originally Posted by Danah

While I really wonder how some people think that they can do whatever they like yet are assured that they have a free ticket to heaven just because they have faith in Jesus.

and yeah share some views with me please, I am curios to know.

I always wonder that also, and to be quite honest, their "logic" never makes much sense to me. But I will share the attitudes and things I have heard said.

I first wanted to say that I don't know that there is any church that teachings that an individual needs only to believe and nothing else. I could be wrong-- as I have not attended nor looked at the philosophy of every church in existence. But, I think all churches preach a gospel of righteous living, regardless of what they believe about eternal security or the ability to fall away. The very definition of being a Christian is to be a "follower of Christ." Just as muslims try to follow the examples of the prophet, a christian should strive to follow the teachings of Christ. If there is any church out there that actually teaches that individuals only need to "be saved" and can live as they wish otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing it.

That being said, churches may not preach it, but there are certainly many christians that believe in that manner. One might ask how someone could believe he could live as he wishes, when churches do not teach it. The answer is quite simple-- not all who profess to be a Christian actually go to church. I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who are christian yet never attend church. Also popular is the ever growing number of independently run churches that have no oversight and no affiliation. There is an individual on another forum I am on who professes to be a Christian, yet openly admits that he has never stepped foot in a church in his life. Yes, it is possible for someone to be a Christian and never attend church, but I think the real question is what is that individual doing to grow in his faith? There was someone recently who professed to still be a "baby Christian" after having made a decision to follow Christ close to 40 years earlier. This means that for close to 40 years the individual has probably done absolutely nothing to grow is his faith. I would probably be remiss to speculate all the things he has not done (or done). Could you imagine someone taking Shahada and then never cracking open a qur'an, not praying, never listening to a lecture, nor reading a book, never setting foot inside a masjid (nor islamic center, nor any other place as these), not taking any notice as to halal eating, etc. That is what some of these people are like.

I wanted to point these things out, because when we see individuals who claim to hold certain beliefs it is important to realize that these beliefs may not be at all representative of Biblical teachings.

One eternal salvation belief that is held by some churches does say that christians can not lose their salvation. For the most part, churches who hold that view would say that the individual who continues to live sinfully (as your example) was never saved in the first place.

The attitudes and beliefs I have heard espoused by individuals go kinda like this....

"Jesus loves you and that is all you need to know."
"We are no longer under the law..... we have been freed from the law..... Jesus fulfilled the law"
"All sin can be forgiven (except the unpardonable sin), and we are forgiven as many times as we ask."
"Since no man is perfect, we can not be expected to be perfect."
"My sins have already been forgiven when Jesus died. The payment was already made for them."

You can see where the above attitudes can lead to people believing they can do anything they want and never lose their salvation. Everything we are instructed to do in the Bible becomes excused by one or more of the above statements. Since "we" do not need to "do" anything to "earn" salvation (it is a free gift) then all "we" have to do is just accept it and live under God's grace.

I wish I could explain better why they believe that way, or how it is they come to believe that way. As I said, I do not quite understand it myself. If you get into a discussion with them they will simply go in circles.

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

I'm surprised you havent met those christians.

I'm not surprised that she hasn't met them. Many of them don't advertise it, and you wouldn't know that they believed it unless you questioned them about their lifestyle. Many of those individuals don't even go to church. I see them significantly more on-line that off-line.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

I know Christians who have asked, "Are you saved?" and "If you died tonight, would you go to Heaven or to Hell?" To what extent are Christians on this forum completely assured of their salvation? Do Christians have any fear that maybe their lives don't really measure up to an minimum acceptable level? If they can say of someone else that is obviously sinful, "They weren't really saved to begin with." how can they be so self assured about their own lives before God?

I will answer for myself personally, as I can not answer for anyone else.

I know that I am a miserable creature who has done much wrong in life. God spared me from death on more than one occasion, and I have often felt there must be a purpose even though that purpose has always eluded me. Perhaps I am too dense, or too stubborn. No matter how far I have run from God, he never stopped chasing me. I do not feel that I have any assurance of salvation. I continually strive to know God more, to learn more, to live as God would want me to-- set apart for him. I will never be perfect, nor will I ever have all knowledge. Nothing I will ever do on this earth could ever measure up to God in his infinite goodness, righteousness, and perfection in all ways. I am nothing. Yet even in my nothingness he felt I was important enough to love. All I can do is trust him.

I do not live for Heaven or some promise of salvation in the afterlife. I have been at death's door and I have no fear of death. I have no fear of what happens to me after death. God will do what God does, regardless of what I believe. If God chooses to put me in the fire to purge me, then I am fully accepting of it. He has already brought me into the fire more times than any individual should have to go. If God chooses to place me there after death, then I am fully accepting of his decision. Knowing this, and as much as he places me in the fire on earth, I will not ever stop seeking him or seeking his will in my life. Knowing that I will never be perfect nor have perfect understanding-- I will never stop working towards being what I should be and learning. Everything that I am and have belongs to God. He holds my every breath.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

You reminded me of the song, "Amazing Grace" and I agree that we can't do enough to be confident of being protected from the Hellfire. Yet my perception as a former Baptist is that their faith for salvation in what Jesus did on the cross, hence their concept of 'being saved' as in the past tense their salvation being a 'done deal'. It seems there is nearly as much ambiguity over 'faith' vs 'works' for salvation as there is over the 'humanity' vs 'divinity' of Jesus' nature (alayhi salam).

Baptists believe in eternal security for the believer. They are one of those groups who would say that the individual was never saved to begin with if he lived as Danah asked about earlier in the thread. Yes, I agree with you when you speak of their belief in salvation in the past tense as a done deal. There are a great many things I disagree with in Baptist doctrine.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

My understanding of the Hellfire is that it is a terrible punishment that I pray for forgiveness and to be protected from punishment there. I am indeed fearful of Allah's (subhana wa ta ala) wrath and his punishment. I do live for Heaven and that is my final goal realizing that I can't do enough that I can be assured of salvation. In Islam our intentions define the merit of our deeds. Unfortunately, I am unable to judge my own heart with regards to the purity of intention for even the simplest good deed I may do. I am completely at His Mercy. From what you wrote I see some agreement with my beliefs.

I agree with things you wrote also, especially when you said that you are unable to judge your own heart. We humans are notoriously poor at judging the intentions of our hearts. We are even poorer at judging the intentions of others.

I realize that I differ from the vast majority of individuals with regard to my lack of fear from the hellfires and my striving towards Heaven. Most people would abandon God altogether if they had no hope of the hereafter. I honestly can't explain to you how I can have a total peace even at the thought of being placed in the fire. I often say it is because I have been at death's door on more than one occasion in the past and because of all the hell on earth I have lived through-- but to be honest it must be more than that, and I can only give God credit for my peace. He has broken me again and again.

You have to understand that my view of Satan is also much different than most Christians..... and even different than Muslims. BUt this thread is not about me and my beliefs. I normally try and give generalized answers and not share my own personal views at all.

format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain

I will answer for myself personally, as I can not answer for anyone else.

I know that I am a miserable creature who has done much wrong in life. God spared me from death on more than one occasion, and I have often felt there must be a purpose even though that purpose has always eluded me. Perhaps I am too dense, or too stubborn. No matter how far I have run from God, he never stopped chasing me. I do not feel that I have any assurance of salvation. I continually strive to know God more, to learn more, to live as God would want me to-- set apart for him. I will never be perfect, nor will I ever have all knowledge. Nothing I will ever do on this earth could ever measure up to God in his infinite goodness, righteousness, and perfection in all ways. I am nothing. Yet even in my nothingness he felt I was important enough to love. All I can do is trust him.

I do not live for Heaven or some promise of salvation in the afterlife. I have been at death's door and I have no fear of death. I have no fear of what happens to me after death. God will do what God does, regardless of what I believe. If God chooses to put me in the fire to purge me, then I am fully accepting of it. He has already brought me into the fire more times than any individual should have to go. If God chooses to place me there after death, then I am fully accepting of his decision. Knowing this, and as much as he places me in the fire on earth, I will not ever stop seeking him or seeking his will in my life. Knowing that I will never be perfect nor have perfect understanding-- I will never stop working towards being what I should be and learning. Everything that I am and have belongs to God. He holds my every breath.

That's beautiful, Pouring Rain.
May God bless you abundantly! (It sounds like he already does )

format_quote Originally Posted by marwen

I just want to more understand this term. Not intended to make a debate, just need a clarification from my christian mates here or ex-christians or someone who have knowledge about christianity.

I have difficulties with some terminologies and concepts used by christian people what makes it hard for me to understand what they are talking about.

My question is about "Salvation".

Yesterday I was seeing the news on website, and I was attracted by a top banner saying : "Jesus In Tunisia". Dunno how they figured out that I'm living in Tunisia (from my IP adress I guess ). Never heard about that before, I clicked on and got a long text with pictures talking abou Salvation and how Jesus died for me and I should take profit of the salvation otherwise I will be punished by eternal death.

I don't know who makes these texts to ask him directly what he means so I'll post my questions here :

1) What is the right definition/meaning of salvation ?
2) does every christian believe in it ?
3) Why/is eternal death the punishment of no-christians ( or people who are not saved) ? Do christians not believe in Hell as an eternal punishment ?

The answers may differ depending on which denomination you ask.

1) When I was a Roman Catholic I would have said that was dieing while in a state of Grace.

2) Some denominations believe in once saved, always saved. Roman Catholics believe that a person can fall out of grace and die when not in a State of Grace which will mean going to the hellfire, even though they may have been in a state of grace many times in the past.

3) When I was Catholic I would have said any person of any faith can die in a state of grace provided they sincerely believed they were obeying God and had repented for their sins.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

PouringRain, it seems that you have no personal concern for being saved from the Hellfire and that you quite willingly submit to what God has decreed for you. Do you likewise have no concern for the salvation of others?

As a Muslim I feel a sense of responsibility to share the message of Islamic monotheism and I have a desire to see others share my faith and to be saved from eternal punishment. I believe the Quran 3:85, "And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers."

I have a great concern for others. I can't say "for their salvation," but that is because: 1) if I am not assured of my own, then it would be wrong of me to assure others of theirs, 2) I don't expect others to believe as I do, nor do I believe that what i believe is the only absolute truth. The only truth is God-- he is the Truth. Beyond that, there are many things that I believe are unimportant. But that is another topic, so I won't go into it here.

My concern for others is very great. I often feel extremely deeply for others. I sat in church one day and there was a family in front of me hurting. As I watched the young teen daughter stand there fighting back tears, I couldn't stop myself from crying for her-- and I didn't even know what this family was going through, nor had I ever met them before. I get to where I am thankful we do not get news, because it is just so depressing and sad-- all of it. My heart breaks for every person out there. There was once a time in my life that I could not cry if I tried, but now I could not make myself stop if I tried.

My deep emotions are not limited to empathy. I feel very deeply love for others as well. A very pure love. I wish for every human to know God, and to have a right relationship with him. Unfortunately, I don't believe it will happen. I am both idealist and realist in that respect. I help all I can, and I wipe my feet on the door mat of those I can not. Rarely in life do we see the fruits of our labor, and I labor not for myself. Most of those I help are strangers to me. Sadly, I believe there are too many people in this life who are so lost that they can never be found. In this way, I am a bit jaded, as I believe that some people are simply evil. Too long I spent believing that all could be reached.

I stopped allowing myself to be surrounded by poisonous people years ago. I can not sit in the company of the blasphemer, hoping that one day he will know God. It would destroy me, because of how deeply the hurt that I feel becomes. I know from experience, and there are people in my past who I still feel such deep sorrow for, but I know they are beyond reach. All I can do is pray for people like that.

Unlike you, I don't believe that someone must believe as I do or they will be saved. I believe that Jesus provided a way of salvation, and was the messiah. I believe in One God. But I don't believe that religion saves a man-- not any religion. I am a Christian, because I am a follower of Christ and his teachings-- not because I believe it is the "right" religion. I accept Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as acceptable and I believe there are individuals within all who will be saved, but also many in all who will be lost-- and are lost. My desire is for individuals to know God, and have a right relationship with him.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi

Surah 2:62 says also: "Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

This contradicts Surah 3:85. Which verse is true and which is not?

Both are true, no contradiction there. As the people of the book Christians, Jews, and Sabians will receive their just rewards, but that does not mean it will be Jannah. they may receive their rewards while alive and still face the Hellfire after death.

Also the true People of the Book, prior to the revelations being lost, did follow the true revelations and will see Jannah as they are those "whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

Hiroshi, you ask a fair question. Brother Woodrow is more knowledgeable than I am and he provided a good response.

I would like to quote a translation of the Quran that I like to use, "Indeed, those who believe 'in Islam', and those of Jewry, and the Christians and the Sabians-whoever 'among them truly' believes in God and 'in the coming Judgment of' the Last Day and works righteousness-shall have their reward with their lord; and there shall be no fear upon them 'when they assemble for Judgment'. Nor shall they grieve 'over the life of this world'. The parts in 'single quotes' are interpretations of the meaning and are not direct word-for-word translation from the Arabic.

It is interesting that this very ayat is exactly repeated at 5:69 where it is preceded by, "Say: O People of the Scripture! You stand on nothing, until you uphold 'the Commandments of' the Torah and the Evangel and what has been sent down to you from your Lord 'in the Quran'. Yet, assuredly, 'O Prophet,' what has been sent down to you from your Lord shall increase many of them in transgression and unbelief. So do not grieve over a disbelieving people." Notice the part I have underlined where it calls them a "disbelieving people" immediately preceding the next ayat, "Indeed, those who believe..."

In 5:70-71 the Jews are chastised for their disobedience and in 4:46 it says regarding the Jews "... Moreover, they say 'of this Quran': We have heard, but we disobey!..." Again in 5:82 the Quran says, "You shall assuredly find that of all people the severest in enmity against those who believe are the Jews..."

In 5:72-75 the Christians are chastised as unbelievers for example in ayat 72, "'And as to the Christians': Very truly they have disbelieved who say: Indeed, God, Himself, is the Messiah, son of Mary, while the Messiah 'himself' said: O Children of Israel: Worship God, my Lord and your Lord..."

I hope to not offend anyone, but I understand from these passages that "those who believe ... and works righteousness" does NOT apply to those who are disobedient (Jews) nor to those who disbelieve (Christians), but Allah (swt) knows best the meaning. Yet the door of forgiveness is open per 5:74 "Will they not, then, repent to God and seek His forgiveness, while God is All-forgiving, Mercy-giving?"