Do christians believe in the old testament?

format_quote Originally Posted by alluminati

So right now some speculation: the original church set forth by the apostles of Yeshua was either modified or corrupted, especially after Constantine

It is the fashion among some ignorant people to greatly exaggerate the influence of Saint Constantine on Christian theology. The emperor did not formulate any dogma or introduce new rites, but simply facilitated the settling of a dispute between the orthodox and the Arian heretics who taught that Jesus was God's first and greatest creation, but not God. Constantine himself showed signs of wavering in his life and often lent support to Arians; nevertheless the Arian party was defeated by the grace of God.

The Council of Nicaea had nothing to do with the canon of scriptures.

An example is with the rites of the Church, which I view as a blasphemy; partaking in the Eucharist and drinking of Wine, both representative of the body and blood, literally of Christ. These are not spiritual things, but worldy and bodily things!

The incarnation of God shows that even lowly matter can be deified when God assumes a body. The eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ and is both material and spiritual.

This was understood long before Constantine and Christ himself proclaimed this truth as it is recorded in the Gospel of Saint John.

format_quote Originally Posted by Iconodule

The incarnation of God shows that even lowly matter can be deified when God assumes a body. The eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ and is both material and spiritual.

This was understood long before Constantine and Christ himself proclaimed this truth as it is recorded in the Gospel of Saint John.

I don't understand how anyone can remain Christian in this modern day and age really. I was just reading about Jesus (PBUH) escaped to Aswan in Egypt frightened escaping his persecutors who have spent a life time persecuting him, the same folks of now a days who persecute others but call themselves Christians.. Making him a God really did make sense to folks who believed in Zeus and Hercules and were out to oppose any monotheistic theology and the only way for them to adopt this Abrahamic faith was to turn it into the idolatry and even bigotry that they'd known all along..

the same way modern Day U.S & Israel persecute the true Semites while claiming everyone else is an anti-Semite.. ignorant, bigoted and intolerant bunch, the same who persecuted him then are the same who worship him now.. They didn't get it then and they don't get it now!

It defies the being of God, to be a man.. and not just any man, a frightened man, a man who prays for safety and exoneration. A man who ate, searched for food with his mother, a man who was so poor the sky was his blanket and the earth his bed.. Jesus PBUH is innocent from what you ascribe to him and may God's wrath be upon those who ascribe partners unto him.. Glory be to him creator of heaven and earth..

اللَّهُ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ لاَ تَأْخُذُهُ سِنَةٌ وَلاَ نَوْمٌ لَهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ مَنْ ذَا الَّذِي يَشْفَعُ عِنْدَهُ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِهِ يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلاَ يُحِيطُونَ بِشَيْءٍ مِنْ عِلْمِهِ إِلاَّ بِمَا شَاءَ وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاو ;َاتِ وَالأَرْضَ وَلاَ يَئُودُهُ حِفْظُهُمَا وَهُوَ الْعَلِيُّ الْعَظِيمُ

Allahu la ilaha illa Huwa, Al-Haiyul-Qaiyum La ta'khudhuhu sinatun wa la nawm, lahu ma fis-samawati wa ma fil-'ard Man dhal-ladhi yashfa'u 'indahu illa bi-idhnihi Ya'lamu ma baina aidihim wa ma khalfahum, wa la yuhituna bi shai'im-min 'ilmihi illa bima sha'a Wasi'a kursiyuhus-samawati wal ard, wa la ya'uduhu hifdhuhuma Wa Huwal 'Aliyul-Adheem

"Allah! There is no god but He - the Living, The Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him Nor Sleep. His are all things In the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede In His presence except As he permitteth? He knoweth What (appeareth to His creatures As) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass Aught of his knowledge Except as He willeth. His throne doth extend Over the heavens And on earth, and He feeleth No fatigue in guarding And preserving them, For He is the Most High. The Supreme (in glory)."
[Surah al-Baqarah 2: 255]


best,

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

Who are the Christians who ignore the OT?

it is a fact that paul changed the teaching - and that he made vain the law which Christ (pbuh) followed:


Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Galatians 5:2-6

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18

New Covenant Theology sees all Old Covenant laws as "cancelled" or "abrogated" in favor of the law of Christ or the New Testament. Some new covenant theologians also believe the Old Covenant laws were reinstituted under the New Covenant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrogation_of_Old_Covenant_laws

it is a fact that Christ (pbuh) was a follower of the law and that he was circumcised, and that he did observe the sabbath on saturday,
and i think even paul observed saturday,
so the teachings of Paulare not the law of christ.

format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll

It defies the being of God, to be a man.. and not just any man, a frightened man, a man who prays for safety and exoneration. A man who ate, searched for food with his mother, a man who was so poor the sky was his blanket and the earth his bed..

It is true, by his abundant mercy and love for mankind, God became a mere man to save mankind. He humbled himself and took the form of a little child. He suffered hunger, thirst, the fear of death, all of these things, and yet he also remained the almighty, all-knowing God. Does it seem strange? Yes it does. To mere human reasoning it is nonsensical- foolishness to the pagans, a stumbling block to the Jews, as Saint Paul said. And yet it is the truth, so far is God beyond our human reasoning. Because the true God is not a philosophical abstraction but a Person whose ways are infinitely beyond the grasp of philosophers, even if those philosophers claim the title of theologians. Glory to God who did not despise us but voluntarily endured death for our sake, and was resurrected to ensure the resurrection for all men.

The "gods" of the pagans either acted like sinful men (murderers, fornicators, etc.), as in the myths, or they were so rarefied that they were mere philosophical abstraction, like in the philosophers. Plato's "god" would never deign to clothe itself in corruptible matter; Zeus or Hercules would never voluntarily submit to humiliating and painful death on behalf of all humanity, and the utterly sublime teaching of the Sermon on the Mount was completely beyond them.

The Christian God is totally different.

format_quote Originally Posted by Iconodule

The Christian God is totally different.

different he's indeed from the God of Abraham & Moses and Enoch and John and Jesus etc. etc.
God didn't to 'humble' himself before to humble himself after.. It is nonsense and not befitting of God!

best,

To mere human reasoning it is nonsensical- foolishness to the pagans, a stumbling block to the Jews, as Saint Paul said. And yet it is the truth, so far is God beyond our human reasoning.

it was a pagan roman belief that their leaders were gods and sons of gods,
it was NOT a jewish belief.
the term son of god in jewish tradition is used just to refer to pious people - not literal sons of God

format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000

it was a pagan roman belief that their leaders were gods and sons of gods,
it was NOT a jewish belief.
the term son of god in jewish tradition is used just to refer to pious people - not literal sons of God

There is only one actual Son of God, one incarnation- Jesus Christ- so of course the Jews did not have a previous teaching on this question, except in hints which can be found throughout the Old Testament. Christ's humble nature, his voluntary suffering, and his sublime teaching all show that he is nothing like the "gods" of the pagans.

All the early Christian leaders were Jews so of course the incarnation is a Jewish belief.

format_quote Originally Posted by Iconodule

It is true, by his abundant mercy and love for mankind, God became a mere man to save mankind

"And ask forgiveness of your Lord and turn unto Him in repentance. Verily, my Lord is Most Merciful, Most Loving." (11:19)

No need for God to become a man, and Glorified and Exalted be He above that. He forgives at will all who repent sincerely.

format_quote Originally Posted by Iconodule

He humbled himself and took the form of a little child. He suffered hunger, thirst, the fear of death, all of these things, and yet he also remained the almighty, all-knowing God.

A contradiction in terms. A "god" who experiences helplessness, hunger, thirst and fear is not God.

Say, "Is it other than Allah I should take as a protector, Creator of the heavens and the earth, while it is He who feeds and is not fed?" Say, [O Muhammad], "Indeed, I have been commanded to be the first [among you] who submit [to Allah]. Do not ever be of the polytheists. " (6:14)

format_quote Originally Posted by Iconodule

There is only one actual Son of God

And say, "Praise to Allah , who has not taken a son and has had no partner in [His] dominion and has no [need of a] protector out of weakness; and glorify Him with [great] glorification." (17:111)

format_quote Originally Posted by Iconodule

Glory to God who did not despise us but voluntarily endured death for our sake, and was resurrected to ensure the resurrection for all men.

And rely upon the Ever-Living who does not die, and glorify His praise. And sufficient is He to be, with the sins of His servants, Acquainted. (Translation of Qur'an 25:58)

And say, "Praise to Allah, who has not taken a son and has had no partner in [His] dominion and has no [need of a] protector out of weakness; and glorify Him with [great] glorification." (17:11)

Exalted is Allah above what they describe. (37:159)

A god that has to die and resurrect himself in order to resurrect others, cannot be God.

Allah - there is no deity except Him. He will surely assemble you for [account on] the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt. And who is more truthful than Allah in statement?. (4:87)

How can you disbelieve in Allah when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you [back] to life, and then to Him you will be returned. (2:28)

It is as simple as that.

Glory be to Allah alone, that's one of the endless things I love about Islam, the concepts are so simple and logical. The truth resonates with the heart and mind.

Iconodule - from your posts on the "where does God fit in" thread, i believe you are a sincere seeker and defender of truth, please let us look objectively and see if Christ (pbuh) was Almighty God or a servant of God:

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
isaiah 53:11

God's servant - not God as a servant - one is a servant of Another

And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 11:42

Verily, verily, I say unto you,
The servant is not greater than his lord;
neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
John 13:16

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:5

it clearly shows that he (pbuh) was a servant, and that he goes through a furnace of affliction so people can wake up:

Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Isaiah 48:10-11

To be precise; OT is not a book or a collection of books or documents.
It is a covenant through Moses.

Reading reports and documentations about something does not equal understanding it. You can read and read and read and still be in ignorance of the hiden thing in the writtings. Entering a library and reading all the books does not guaranty that you will get the main point the collector (builder of the library) meant to 'remember'.

format_quote Originally Posted by JeffX

If the Old Testament is no longer valid, then neither are the prophecies. You can't say we read the OT for the prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) and quote the scripture that "proves" your point, then turn around and say it's not valid.

I have to agree that the assertion that the Old Testament law was "abolished" is false and contrary to Christ's own words.

Many of the laws governing ritual purity or dietary restrictions were, however, superseded. The Old Testament remains valid however, and for much more than just nice stories about God's power. It's especially clear that Christ taught the Old Testament moral commandments to remain valid. The Old Testament as a whole is ultimately about Christ and to fully understand him it is important to study both testaments.

Say some man kills a bunch of children and years later he accepts Jesus, then he's good? That's what I've been told. That is what I was preached in Sunday school.

I'm sorry you were subjected to this nonsense. There are some Protestant sects teaching that one can be instantly saved just by expressing faith in Jesus, without any fundamental change of lifestyle or mindset. Some even seem to teach that saying a particular prayer is enough to magically save someone- "once saved, always saved." This is not genuine Christian teaching.

All sins can be forgiven but there must be genuine repentance and, as Saint James said, "faith without works is dead." A Christian must continue to struggle against his passions and do good works throughout his life. The moral commandments of the Old Testament law as well as the New Testament are important for all Christians.

Christ did die (and resurrect) to liberate man from sin and death- he gives man the grace to be purified and made holy, but this is conditional on man's willing cooperation with God, which includes prayer, fasting, good works, and partaking of the Holy Mysteries, as well as correct faith (Orthodoxy).