I want to clarify the meaning and significance of icons in Christianity, with the hope that this will promote mutual understanding. I am not intending to begin a polemical thread, just to clarify what Orthodox Christians actually believe and practice. If, after reading my post, some still feel that icons are idolatrous or contrary to scripture they are of course free to make those arguments here but I will not defend against them, as I do not think polemics, especially online ones, are typically useful. On the other hand, sincere questions for the purpose of clarification I will gladly answer.
I am not a theologian so I will not pretend that my presentation without flaws or the most authoritative.
In the 8th century the iconoclast movement was launched in the Byzantine empire, which argued that icons were idolatrous. Among other reasons, they argued that icons were anathema because they violated the second commandment:
You shall not make for yourself an idol or a likeness of anything in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow to them or serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, recompensing the sins of the fathers on the children of the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me.
The iconoclasts interpreted this commandment as an utter prohibition against any depictions of created things; many Protestants today make the same argument. Other important points they made included the impossibility of depicting the invisible God and the supposed limitation of icons to only depicting Christ's human nature or else confusing his human and divine natures.
The Orthodox defenders of icons, such as St. John of Damascus and St. Theodore the Studite, made the following points:
1. The second commandment could not possibly be a blanket prohibition of images, since God commanded the Holy Prophet Moses to create the golden cherubim on the Ark as well as images of cherubim embroidered in the veil protecting the Holy of Holies. Moses was likewise commanded to make a brazen image of a serpent to cure the Israelites of snake venom. The Prophet and King Solomon also included images of angels, as well as bulls and other creatures, when he built the Temple in Jerusalem, and this was blessed by God.
2. The second commandment is really concerned with offering the worship due to God to things which are not God ("for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God"). The icon given to icons is relative and directed ultimately toward the one true God. We honor the depiction only for the sake of Him whom it depicts; wood and paint are not objects of worship. We honor the saints and their relics likewise as reflections of God's glory, recognizing that no one but God is holy in himself; all holiness comes from God and reflects God's glory. Saints and relics are miracle-working only virtue of God's power working through them.
3. With the incarnation of Christ, the invisible God became truly human and therefore visible and depictable. Since Jesus Christ is one person, perfect God and perfect man, images of Christ are truly images of God incarnate. To deny icons is to deny the oneness of Christ and the reality of His incarnation.
4. God is utterly transcendent from His creation but also fully immanent in it; the created is saturated with God's energies and, especially since the incarnation, where God took on a human body of matter, matter can be blessed and permeated with holiness. We can observe God's glory in the creation in general, as well as in particular holy places and relics, and most of all in the mysteries or sacraments of the Church. Again, this does not permit worship of any material thing but honoring the holiness of God which works through matter.
Last edited by Iconodule; 10-16-2011 at 02:43 AM.
Reason: typo (omitted NOT)
We honor the depiction only for the sake of Him whom it depicts; wood and paint are not objects of worship. We honor the saints and their relics likewise as reflections of God's glory, recognizing that no one but God is holy in himself; all holiness comes from God and reflects God's glory. Saints and relics are miracle-working only virtue of God's power working through them.
3. With the incarnation of Christ, the invisible God became truly human and therefore visible and depictable. Since Jesus Christ is one person, perfect God and perfect man, images of Christ are truly images of God incarnate. To deny icons is to deny the oneness of Christ and the reality of His incarnation.
4. God is utterly transcendent from His creation but also fully immanent in it; the created is saturated with God's energies and, especially since the incarnation, where God took on a human body of matter, matter can be blessed and permeated with holiness. We can observe God's glory in the creation in general, as well as in particular holy places and relics, and most of all in the mysteries or sacraments of the Church. Again, this does not permit worship of any material thing but honoring the holiness of God which works through matter.
Much of this sounds familiar, as Hindus have the same beliefs regarding their idols. They don't believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) but have similar beliefs about God being incarnated in people, and idols.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
1. The second commandment could not possibly be a blanket prohibition of images, since God commanded the Holy Prophet Moses to create the golden cherubim on the Ark as well as images of cherubim embroidered in the veil protecting the Holy of Holies. Moses was likewise commanded to make a brazen image of a serpent to cure the Israelites of snake venom. The Prophet and King Solomon also included images of angels, as well as bulls and other creatures, when he built the Temple in Jerusalem, and this was blessed by Go
So, this is not a blanket statement?
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, orany likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth
It sounds to me as blanket as they come.
It's either God in the OT was a wishy washy God who strictly commanded one thing and then next said "oh, but I didn't really mean it",
or there must be somebody wrote things in the OT and claimed they were from God and hence makes everything seems so contradictory in bible.
It all comes down to language, and to people's understandig of what 'worship' means. It is a matter of maturity.
Until certain things are fulflilled y = ax + b will always be absurdity to the arrogant child and mystery to the ignorant one.
The Bible contains and considers with respect the fullness of humanity from its embryonic stage to its maturity (fullness of time).
Diapers are commanded on kids for a reason. The focus is not on diapers, but on the reason.
"Happy the nation that knows the cry of praise! They will walk in the light of your presence, Lord,
and rejoice in your name all the day – for you are the splendour of their strength,
and by your good will our standard is held high." Ps.88
It all comes down to language, and to people's understandig of what 'worship' means. It is a matter of maturity.
I agree.
But there is not one single "worship" word written in the Deuteronomy 5:8 and Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
But here's images that you can find in churches:
And thanks to this now we know God is actually an mixture of italian looking man with blonde hair, an old guy with gray hair and beard and a white dove:
Tomorrow we in the Orthodox Church who are on the new calendar commemorate the 7th Ecumenical Council which defended the holy icons. You can read about it here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Seventh_Ecumenical_Council Glory to God.
Last edited by Ramadhan; 10-17-2011 at 04:04 AM.
Reason: no images that promote idols worship is allowed
4. God is utterly transcendent from His creation but also fully immanent in it
Although I've heard this before, I don't think it's something people outside of Christianity (and maybe not even those in it) can understand. Thank you for explaining your point of view though, I enjoyed reading it.
Early people learned Christianity through icons and images on stained glasses windows of the churches.
Any medium is acceptable to Christianity for sharing and celebrating the Faith. All those images are very beautiful.
I think, images are more effective in transmitting the faith than writtings.They are the universal language that everyone can understand if they 'listen'. Afterall, God made man, he did not make books. This reminds me of a great teaching called Theology of the Body. It illustrates how everything man needs to know about himself and God, is already written on his very body.
So no man is indeed without any excuse in matter of salvation, for every man has a body and God signed his Word on his very body.
"Happy the nation that knows the cry of praise! They will walk in the light of your presence, Lord,
and rejoice in your name all the day – for you are the splendour of their strength,
and by your good will our standard is held high." Ps.88
Early people learned Christianity through icons and images on stained glasses windows of the churches.
Any medium is acceptable to Christianity for sharing and celebrating the Faith. All those images are very beautiful.
I think, images are more effective in transmitting the faith than writtings.They are the universal language that everyone can understand if they 'listen'. Afterall, God made man, he did not make books. This reminds me of a great teaching called Theology of the Body. It illustrates how everything man needs to know about himself and God, is already written on his very body.
So no man is indeed without any excuse in matter of salvation, for every man has a body and God signed his Word on his very body.
You should burn those images.
Also in (Deuteronomy 7:25) God orderd the people to burn idols and never use them in worship
(Deuteronomy 7:25)
The images of their gods you are to burn in the fire. Do not covet the silver and gold on them, and do not take it for yourselves, or you will be ensnared by it, for it is detestable to the LORD your God. Do not bring a detestable thing into your house or you, like it, will be set apart for destruction. Regard it as vile and utterly detest it, for it is set apart for destruction.
Use of idols (humans or objects) is the wrong way to worship the Almighty GOD: "Guard yourselves from idols." (1 John 5:21).
Jesus who worshiped God almighty in Luke 5:16 and Matthew 26:39 and never used images in worship.
The Bible considers GOD Almighty as a "spirit" and He must be worshiped with spirit and truth: "God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth." (John 4:24).
I do not much like to take the tone of a moralist. But the danger of the baobabs is so little understood, and such considerable risks would be run by anyone who might get lost on an asteroid, that for once I am breaking through my reserve. "Children," I say plainly, "watch out for the baobabs!"
Current day Christianity seems to be very similar to Hinduism. They both believe in a trinity, both kneel in front of statues and pictures of various beings to worship them and ask their needs(still believing that they are worshipping the one god), both believe god was incarnated in man, both believe that god in his incarnation/s was born of a woman, was a helpless baby etc, both believe god in some of his incarnations died, etc etc.
If Jesus (peace be upon him) came to earth today, he would not recognise current day Christians as his true followers.
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Early people learned Christianity through icons and images on stained glasses windows of the churches.
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
I think, images are more effective in transmitting the faith than writtings.They are the universal language that everyone can understand if they 'listen'.
Everyone can understand that God is One, without any sons and without any associates whatsover in His Divinity. But when you associate others in His exclusive Divinity, then you need to resort to pictures, because 3=1 doesn't sit naturally with the heart and mind. The truth resonates with the heart, without pictures.
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Any medium is acceptable to Christianity for sharing and celebrating the Faith.
Even if that goes clearly against Bible commandments, as long as you say you love God.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
Firstly I would start by agreeing with you that some type of decorative images were built on the orders of prophet Solomon (pbuh) and as can be observed from the description of the temple.
يَعمَلونَ لَهُ ما يَشاءُ مِن مَحٰريبَ وَتَمٰثيلَ وَجِفانٍ كَالجَوابِ وَقُدورٍ راسِيٰتٍ ۚ اعمَلوا ءالَ داوۥدَ شُكرًا ۚ وَقَليلٌ مِن عِبادِىَ الشَّكورُ
They worked for him as he desired (making) Arches, Images, Basins as large as Reservoirs, and (cooking) Cauldrons fixed (in their places): "Work ye sons of David with thanks! But few of My servants are grateful!"
Quran 34:13
I have tried to grapple with the topic and have found it difficult to understand,
However - do acknowledge that certain exceptions may have been made in terms of decoration purposes or for testing the children of Israel (God knows why) - but nowhere in the old or new testaments do we find that the prophets or their followers bowed down to and worshipped images without stirring the wrath of God.
Why would you then bow down to them after the prophets?
Especially seeing that other men told you to.
Did you know that that's how idolatry came to mecca after abraham and Ishmael (pbut)?
Amr bin luhay (the leader of the tribe had gone travelling and came across people devoted to them, asked them, they said: they are intermediaries between us and God, so he took a big one with him and set it up at the sanctuary built by Abraham and Ishmael, slowly the reverence for the idols increased and the reverence for the commandments of God and teachings of the prophets decreased, to the extent where when the prophet (pbuh) came, they were amused at the talk of an invisible God who was all powerful and one who talks to poor people at that.
Basically they saw themselves above their idols - misled the people - and fancied themselves as gods who had the power to ultimately legislate.
Just like pharaoh.
It seems to be a process that is very similar through the ages,
Deuteronomy 5:8 and Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
But christians make gods dolls, in all sizes and colors and state of undress so you can worship your gods doll at your own home
And don't forget to worship a photo of your own favorite pope so he can take you to heaven with him:
Firstly I would start by agreeing with you that some type of decorative images were built on the orders of prophet Solomon (pbuh) and as can be observed from the description of the temple.
يَعمَلونَ لَهُ ما يَشاءُ مِن مَحٰريبَ وَتَمٰثيلَ وَجِفانٍ كَالجَوابِ وَقُدورٍ راسِيٰتٍ ۚ اعمَلوا ءالَ داوۥدَ شُكرًا ۚ وَقَليلٌ مِن عِبادِىَ الشَّكورُ
They worked for him as he desired (making) Arches, Images, Basins as large as Reservoirs, and (cooking) Cauldrons fixed (in their places): "Work ye sons of David with thanks! But few of My servants are grateful!"
Quran 34:13
I have tried to grapple with the topic and have found it difficult to understand,
However - do acknowledge that certain exceptions may have been made in terms of decoration purposes or for testing the children of Israel (God knows why) - but nowhere in the old or new testaments do we find that the prophets or their followers bowed down to and worshipped images without stirring the wrath of God.
This explanation may be helpful:
10. OK, granted that there are Icons of sorts in Scripture, but where were the Israelites told that they should venerate them?
The Scriptures do command the Israelites to bow before the Ark, which had two prominent images of cherubim on it. In Psalms 99:5, it commands: "bow before the footstool of His feet...." We should note first of all that the word for "bow" here, is the same word used in Exodus 20:5, when we are told to not bow to idols.
And what is the "footstool of His feet"? In 1st Chronicles 28:2, David uses this phrase in reference to the Ark of the Covenant. In Psalm 99 [98 in the Septuagint], it begins by speaking of the Lord who "dwells between the Cherubim" (99:1), and it ends with a call to "bow to His holy hill"—which makes it even clearer that in context, this is speaking of the Ark of the Covenant. This phrase occurs again in Psalm 132:7, where it is preceded by the statement "We will go into His tabernacles..." and is followed by the statement "Arise, O Lord, into Thy rest; Thou and the Ark of Thy strength."
Interestingly, this phrase is applied to the Cross in the services of the Church, and the connection is not accidental—because on the Ark, between the Cherubim was the Mercy Seat, upon which the sacrificial blood was sprinkled for the sins of the people (Exodus 25:22, Leviticus 16:15).
I do not much like to take the tone of a moralist. But the danger of the baobabs is so little understood, and such considerable risks would be run by anyone who might get lost on an asteroid, that for once I am breaking through my reserve. "Children," I say plainly, "watch out for the baobabs!"
Ramadhan- I am not a Roman Catholic; I am not under the Pope and I do not venerate the Pope or any image of him. I imagine I can find practices by certain Sufis, Shiites, etc. which you would consider improper and I would not assume that all Muslims engage in these practices.
Here is a beautiful icon of the Mother of God:
Last edited by Ramadhan; 10-17-2011 at 04:02 AM.
Reason: no images that promote human worship is allowed
I do not much like to take the tone of a moralist. But the danger of the baobabs is so little understood, and such considerable risks would be run by anyone who might get lost on an asteroid, that for once I am breaking through my reserve. "Children," I say plainly, "watch out for the baobabs!"
Even if that goes clearly against Bible commandments, as long as you say you love God.
One needs love to understand the Bible commandements....
You can not understand anyting, any scripture or commandment without love in the heart. True love is the centre of everything. God is true love. Love sanctifies and purify everything. Laws and commandment were given for the sake of love. It is all about loving truly and appropriately. Worship is a matter of love. You don't seem to understand what 'idol' means. 'Idol' means the wrong/desordered object of love. Love goes through specific channels depending on what it is directed to. You don't love your father and your husband the same way. You don't love your mother, sister, brother, stranger, classmates, wife, husband, car, dog, cat the same way. For each of this, like the veins of the heart, there is a special channel appropriate for this. There is also a special channel reserved only for God. Now, when this channel is used for other things other than God, this thing is called an idol.
This means that your husband can be your idol if you love him the love that is supposed to be only for God. Your cat, car, house, country, religion, book, etc....all these can be your idols if you misplace them in your heart.
True worship means proper ordering of things in one's heart and life.
Now, status and pictures are things that people make because they have special attachement to whatever they represent. For this reason, both the images and what they represent can be idols if they occupy the place which is supposed to belong only to God. When people don't know God, they will inevitably put things in his place and therefore worship idols. When people know and love God truly, they can not worship idols. It is impossible, it is the differance between being in the light and being in the darkness.
When people don't know God, they are like people in darkness. They don't see; therefore, many things are forbidden to them to keep them safe. It may be forbidden them to run, or jumb or move things around, because they can hurt each other and themselves.
When people know and love God, they are like people in the light. You can't stumble when you are in the light. You can run, you can jump, you can do many thing which is forbidden to people in darkness.
It is the same with Christ. Jesus Christ is the Light of the World, those who are with him do not walk in the darkness. So many things which were too dangereous for people before/without Him, are not dangereous for people who are with Him.
When the heart is better ordered and see, it can not worship idols.
"Happy the nation that knows the cry of praise! They will walk in the light of your presence, Lord,
and rejoice in your name all the day – for you are the splendour of their strength,
and by your good will our standard is held high." Ps.88
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