truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

Zafran:
Not realy and it isnt that significant - Its more on the realm of speculative theology unlike the trinity which is indeed a core principle of christainty that Jesus pbuh himself never talks about. Shouldnt the trinty be in the realm of speculative theology as well then? The Question of the uncreatedness of the Quran never came up until the time of Ahmed ibn Hanbal (ra) - It was preety irrelvent before as it wasnt seen as a problem unlike the trinty in christianity.

You seem to be more focussed on the believed centrality of the Trinity to Christian faith (as opposed to the Muslim belief that the Quran is uncreated)...than seeing what I'm saying about the processes of the development of the respective beliefs. Just like word and concept "Trinity" doesn't appear as a direct statement and/or affirmation in the Bible...neither does the concept of the Quran being uncreated appear as a direct statement and/or affirmation in the Quran. All I'm saying is give BOTH SIDES equal time with that.

Whole thread at a glance.

Those who are already in a conversation, please ignore me.....

Those who are unfamiliar with Christian history and their creeds---here is some info -----BUT caution---proceed at your own risk---warning of a killer migraine up ahead

The Creed of Constantinople (Which got confused with the creed of nicea)
Why is the Creed of Constantinople (AD 381) called the Nicene Creed? The liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer actually provides what I think is the best description of the Great Creed utilised in the Eucharist, as the BCP calls it the 'Creed commonly called Nicene.' The exact origin of the Creed we today use as the Great Creed in Eucharistic worship, for the whole Catholic Church both East and West, has been lost in the mists of time. The answer to the question is not itself simple but can be reduced to a simplistic phrase: the Constantinopolitan Creed is identified with the Nicene Creed because the Council that officially ratified it, the Fourth Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (AD 451), did so. Chalcedon confused the Creed of Nicea with the Creed of Constantinople because the Council of Constantinople professed that its teaching was the true expression of Nicene faith and orthodoxy. The reason for all this is shrouded in mystery; all we know for certain is that the First Council of Constantinople in AD 381 led in time, likely after the period of the Council itself, to the creation of a new Creed, an expansion of a third-century baptismal creed used in the Church of Jerusalem, which was called the 'Faith of the 318 Fathers,' that is, the Faith of the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea I. It is possible that Saint Cyril of Jerusalem presented the form of the Constantinopolitan Creed to the Council of AD 381 from his own Church: this however is an ancient tradition and not based on certain evidence. This much we do know - in turn, the 'Creed of the 150 Fathers,' that is, the Creed of Constantinople I, was declared to be same as the Creed of Nicea I by the Council of Chalcedon in 451. Chalcedon also stated that the Creed of Constantinople (C), which was confused with the original Creed of Nicea (N), was to be unchanged and unaltered forever - and that any effort to change, alter, or correct the Creed so received would be heresy

Council of Ephesus (With regards to the "Mother Of God" concept still held by the Catholics---and hotly debated within early Christian history----the use of the title "Mother of God" instead of "Mother of Christ")

"We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her" (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).

(And here is OFFICIAL CHRISTIAN the explanation of the HYPOSTATIC UNION)
THE ATHANASIAN CREED dates from the late fourth century, and is attributed to St. Athanasius (296-373), the great defender of Catholic Truth. Those who held to the Arian heresy, which ravaged the Church at that time, denied the divinity of Christ. As a result, Athanasius composed this creed which includes lengthy explanations of the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union (the Human and Divine natures of Christ forming one Person)...
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith, except a man keep whole and integral, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. Now the Catholic Faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. For such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, the Holy Ghost uncreate; the Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet, there are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated, nor three incomprehensibles; but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise, the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Ghost is Lord. And yet there are not three Lords, but one Lord. For, as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord; so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say there be three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after the other. None is greater or less than another, but the whole three Persons are co-equal and co-eternal together. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore it is necessary unto eternal salvation that he believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the world; and Man of the substance of His Mother, born into the world. Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Godhead as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God, and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven; He sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their works. And they that have done good shall go into everlasting life, and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This, then, is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

(Notice the underlined word---incomprehensible ---that about says it all)

Dear Sol Invictus

There is a proverb in Turkey " One of the insane people threw a stone into the well, Forty wise men couldn't extract it " , Three personifications in one entity, three but one, three controller, three organizer, two spectator with no interference, a slander like dementia, and it goes long, ( Yes God is Comprehensible in Islam too, He is away from being described triune ) . I hope I will write some logical proofs about tawhid. And I have to state that, in east throughout history, Discussions in this respect has been based on proving tawhid instead of explaining falsity of trinity. Every positive supposition is based on an existence. I mean proving non-existence of trinity is only be possible by proving unity. I hope I ll be right here before Woodrow,

format_quote Originally Posted by Chavundur

Dear Sol Invictus

There is a proverb in Turkey " One of the insane people threw a stone into the well, Forty wise men couldn't extract it " , Three personifications in one entity, three but one, three controller, three organizer, two spectator with no interference, a slander like dementia, and it goes long, ( Yes God is Comprehensible in Islam too, He is away from being described triune ) . I hope I will write some logical proofs about tawhid. And I have to state that, in east throughout history, Discussions in this respect has been based on proving tawhid instead of explaining falsity of trinity. Every positive supposition is based on an existence. I mean proving non-existence of trinity is only be possible by proving unity. I hope I ll be right here before Woodrow,

while i don't appreciate the tone of your response, i'd rather you deal with what i have written before we move on to the subject of tawhid. by deal with what i have written i mean that i would like you to quote my arguments as i have done the arguments of others and dissect it for the participants in this thread and show it is illogical instead of merely making such claims but altogether ignoring my points. furthermore, let us hope that your next reply will be more respectful than the one above. anyway, i will be heading out very soon and while i had ignored your claims earlier, when i return i will debunk some of the claims you've been making within this thread.

Sorry Sol Invictus if I state sentences dishonestly, I didn't mean your arguments or claims. As you see my message was short and superficial. It is only about general trinity thought of Christianity, I started message in your name because I wanted you to know why Muslims disprove trinity by pointing at its illogical sides or contradictions. It is not easy to prove that as I expressed above why. As you see my writing capacity is not enough for sarcasm or other unjust meanings.

Zafran:
Your camparison isnt a good one becasue the uncreated nature of the Quran is indeed in the realm of SPECULATIVE THEOLOGY - Are you seriously trying to campare that with the trinty??? - its indeed a terrible camparision - Can you even give indirect proof of the trinty with the statemnets of Jesus pbuh or is this just sepculative theology made mainstream?

Gee whiz. This ain't that hard. REGARDLESS if the uncreated nature of the Quran is "speculative theology", it's STILL THE CASE that the belief DOES exist within Islam. And it didn't come there from any direct Quranic verse or verses. It came from later discussion of Muslim believers taking the text and theology into account. If it's VALID for Islam to do this, how come it's NOT VALID for Christians to do this?

.........................First indication...Second indication............
FIFTH INDICATION

We have demonstrated with decisive proofs in many places that the most fundamental characteristic of rulership is independence and separateness. The weak shadow of rulership in impotent men even vehemently rejects the interference of others and does not permit others to meddle in its duty, in order to preserve its independence. Many kings have mercilessly put to death their innocent children and loved brothers on account of this rejection of interference. That is to say, the most basic characteristics of true rulership, and its inseparable necessities and perpetual essentials are independence, separateness, and the rejection of the interference of others.

It is because of this most basic characteristic that Divine rulership, which is at the degree of absolute dominicality, most vehemently rejects the association of any partners and the participation and interference of others. And the Qur'an of Miraculous Exposition too, insistently, repeatedly, and sternly, points out the affirmation of Divine Unity and rejects with severe threats the association of partners with God.

Thus, the Divine rulership in dominicality necessitates Divine Unity in definite fashion and shows a most powerful motive and necessitating cause. So too the infinitely perfect order and harmony on the face of the universe, apparent from the totality of the universe and the stars to the plants, animals, minerals down to particulars, individuals, and minute particles, are an indubitably veracious witness to and clear proof of that Singleness and Unity. For if others had interfered, this most sensitive balance, order, and regularity of the universe would have been spoilt and signs of disorder would have been apparent. In accordance with the meaning of the verse,

If there were in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides God, there would have been confusion in both!,2

this wondrous, perfect order of the universe would have been thrown into confusion and been spoilt. Whereas, according to the verse,

So turn your vision again; do you see any flaw?,3

from minute particles to the planets, from the ground to the Divine Throne, there is no sign of fault, defect, or confusion to be seen. Thus the order of the universe and of creatures and the balance of beings, demonstrate most brilliantly the greatest manifestation of the Name of Single and testify to Divine Unity.

Moreover, since, through the mystery of the manifestation of Divine Oneness, the tiniest living creature is a miniature sample of the universe and a small index of it, only the One in the grasp of Whose power is the whole universe can lay claim to it. And since, in regard to creation, a seed is not inferior to a tree, and a tree is a small universe, and all living beings are like small universes and small worlds, this mystery of Divine Oneness has made the association of partners with God impossible.

Through this mystery, the universe is not only an indivisible whole, but in respect of its nature, like a universal whose division and being broken up into parts is impossible and which does not accept participation and numerous hands in its creation. Thus, since each part of it is a

--------------

2. Qur'an, 21:22.

3. Qur'an, 67:3.

particular and individual part and the whole also is a universal, there is no possibility in any respect for the participation of others in it. It proves to the degree of being self-evident the greatest manifestation of the Name of Single, the reality of the affirmation of Divine Unity, and this mystery of Divine Oneness.

Yes, since the realms of beings in the universe are interwoven and interbonded and the functions of each look to all, it has made the universe, in respect of dominicality and creation, like an indivisible whole. So too, the all-encompassing general acts in the universe are interwoven and interpenetrated. That is, for example, within the act of giving life, the acts of nurturing and giving of sustenance are apparent at the same instant. And within those acts of nurturing and giving of life, at the same time the acts of ordering and decking out the living creature's body are observed. And within those acts of nurturing, giving life, ordering, and decking out, at the same time the acts of giving of form, raising, and regulating strike the eye. And so on, since such all-encompassing and general acts are interpenetrated and one within the other and blended together like the seven colours in light, indeed, are united; and since being the same in regard to their natures each of those acts encompasses and embraces most beings and are a single act; and since the one who performs the acts must be the same; and since each of them pervades the whole universe and unites with the other acts in co-operation and assistance; it has made the universe like an indivisible whole. Similarly, since all living creatures are like seeds, indexes, and samples of the universe, it has made the universe from the point of view of dominicality like a universal whose division and breaking into parts is impossible. That is to say, the universe is such a totality that to be Sustainer of a part of it is only possible by being Sustainer of the whole. And it is such a universal that each part of it has become like a single member; to make any one single member submit to His dominicality is only possible by subjugating the universal.
The Flashes ( 420 - 422 )

Hi Sol Invictus ,


As Woodrow said at that topic linked, Hadiths may have metaphorical meanings, I assure you that you can find too much hadiths in this aspect, even there are a lot of metaphorical hadiths about the end of the times and recent times, their meanings can only be understood with current conditions. And you can see that sorts of hadiths about hereafter, ( Generally, companions of messenger had not academic degree or civilized education, He made some truths close to minds by metaphors) I can say about the Bukhari Hadiths a lot of remarks like saying " these forms are not his original form", "Only appeared in that way or He wanted to seem to Christians in the form of what they supposed but they were already knowing their supposition was wrong and admitted their falsity with their mouth by saying you are not our lord "....


And finally this discussion will serve no purpose because as I stated above, philosophical suppositions and headways can not lead us to divine authenticity separately, in itself alone. As our senior scholars said, taking the road of philosophy to arrive at truth is like trying to pass ocean through swimming ( It is possible by the way, but not easy). Reality is too detailed, We can't capture everything, limitless information and limitless viewpoints obstruct . For cutting short I have to come to an end. I made some mistakes by writing sentences like " why Muslims disprove trinity " instead of " Why Muslims had not been concentrated on disproving trinity ". We prove the correctness and easiness of divine unity only, consequently trinity approach becomes groundless. My style and approach was wrong at the beginning because I didn't comform this rule. And I explained some logical reasons of this approach, why working on disproving that supposition is to waste time and wrong. I think I am to much interested in refuting Atheistic thoughts instead of inter-religious matters like trinity. May my experienced Muslim brothers forgive me for writing in this topic without working seriously on it. I have to confess that I wasn't knowing what triune is. ( Unforgivable:.)) . Finally Sol Invictus ,As you see I try to cut short in order to not prevent minds from focusing on what the point is. I measure the facts by reasoning in the terms of message above starting with First Indication. I focus on thinking proofs of unity now only.

Whole thread at a glance.