I don't understand why so many Christians are converting to Islam. What can a Muslim tell me to convince me that it is the way I should go? Am I missing something here? Sorry, but I just don't get it! What do you have that I don't already?
Tiger Woods claim he is faithful. Why should anyone tell him he is not? Tiger Woods does not sleep with other women that is not his wife.
Let me put differently. I believe God is one with no partners. This is my testimony and it is God's testimony in the Bible that bears witness with my spirit that this is true. Do you deny this with your illustration of Tiger Woods?
I don't see Jesus as God's partner; I see Him as God's word made flesh. I see Him as the message. If my writing to you and communication is my partner than God has a partner. To us Christians, Jesus is God's word not His partner. I am not Catholic, so I don't believe in statue worship. Constantine had his effect on Catholicism not on true Biblical Christianity; that is not to say there aren't some Catholics that are saved and know the Lord.
Let me put differently. I believe God is one with no partners. This is my testimony and it is God's testimony in the Bible that bears witness with my spirit that this is true
so who are jesus (pbuh) and the holy spirit?
Are they god or not?
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't see Jesus as God's partner; I see Him as God's word made flesh. I see Him as the message.
Do you pray to Jesus (pbuh)?
Do you ask blessings from Jesus (pbuh)?
Jesus is God's word made flesh. That is what God tells us in the Bible.
actually, it is what the unknown, anonymous author of John said. there is nothing to link the author of John with ANYTHING Jesus may or may not have said.
There is nothing to link the Quran to the Bible. The Scriptures and prophets mmust confirm anything new or that comes after right? Otherwise anyone can claim visions from God like Joseph Smith's heavenly vistations that started the Book of Mormonism. I must draw a line somewhere right?
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
I believe this. God said He is only one with no other gods before Him. I believe this. Jesus is not another god in an inferior position. I never even used the word inferior.
you said subordinate:
sub·or·di·nate/səˈbôrdn-it/
Adjective:
Lower in rank or position: "his subordinate officers".
lower = lessor
Is your son inferior to you?
neither of my sons are subordinate to me, nor do any of us claim to be a god. i don't see the connection.
I did say subordinate. That doesn't mean inferior! If your son was never subordinate to you than your son must have been rebellious. Jesus submited to God. My child is subordinate to me but not inferior and no less human than I. God was greater in position, office and function but not in nature, character or essence for Jesus was and is God's WORD! He is the author of my salvation and the finisher of my faith.
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Jesus calls God his father and God calls Jesus His son. Who I am I to call God and Jesus a liar?
you have no authentic contemporaneous writings from the life of Jesus to claim what Jesus said.
Faith is the substance of the things hoped for and evidence of the things not seen. I have faith and God's grace. We are save by God's grace through our faith.
so who are jesus (pbuh) and the holy spirit?
Are they god or not?
I have said that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. God is Spirit as stated in the Bible. he is Holy therefore He is the Holy Sprit. To answer your question, anything that comes from God's essence is divine.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Do you pray to Jesus (pbuh)?
Do you ask blessings from Jesus (pbuh)?
I ask the only true God in Jesus' name. To be a Muslim you must confess the name of Muhammad as Allah prophet or you can't be a Muslim. We don't have to confess the name of any non deity
I have said that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. God is Spirit as stated in the Bible. he is Holy therefore He is the Holy Sprit. To answer your question, anything that comes from God's essence is divine.
So, according to you: There is God, and then there Jesus and then there is Holy spirit, and you worship all three.
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I ask the only true God in Jesus' name.
Yes, my own experience observing christians also tell the same: Christians mention the name of and asks from Jesus (pbuh) a lot more often than God. Holy spirit seems to be an after thought.
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
To be a Muslim you must confess the name of Muhammad as Allah prophet or you can't be a Muslim. We don't have to confess the name of any non deity
Yes, we affirm that Muhammad (saw) is Allah messenger, just as we affirm that Jesus is Allah messenger.
But we don't worship Muhammad (saw) nor we ask anything from him.
You on the other hand, worship a created being, even the created being was a special one.
By the way, if you are here for the truth, please answer my questions in the other thread. I will keep reminding you.
If someone can convince me that Chrisitanity is a lie, I would end up being an atheist, but it is impossible that God doesn't exists. The heavens declare His glory.
You would become an atheist automatically without even investigating Islam first at least? No one here is saying that Christianity in itself is a lie because the earlier forms of it, the true Christianity, was a pure monotheistic belief in ONE God with NO partners. Like I said, if you came up to a group of Christians back then and claimed to be of them from what you're saying to us right now you'd most likely be killed for blasphemy. You keep on saying that you don't worship any partners yet you say you direct your prayers to God THROUGH Jesus (pbuh). So in order to talk to God, you have to talk to someone else to speak for you on your behalf hoping that that one will bring you closer to God. Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Jesus (pbuh) did? Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Abraham (pbuh) did? Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Moses(pbuh) did? Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Mary (pbuh) did? You don't think that God is powerful enough to hear your prayers without someone else having to deliver them to Him for you? Why, He created you. He just says be and it is! So why would He need a spokesperson? He is the Almighty God!
And you're not listening to anything anyone is saying to you here. You continuously quote the Bible and say the Bible said this, the Bible said that but do you understand that the Bible that you are reading is not even the same Bible as it was 400 years ago let alone 2,000 years ago? Some Bible scholars today are even saying that HALF of the New Testament is forged. Yet instead of listening, reading, and learning, you sit here and quote a book where the original is no longer even around for comparison--a book where we know that stories were added in, taken out, names of people purposely mistranslated but yet you still continue to quote it as if it is the infallible word of God. Where books were written that say that Jesus said things when the people who wrote them never even met Jesus (pbuh). That's where the issue arises here in the book itself. We don't know where the original Injeel is and if someone has it then they'd do a great service to the world by bringing it forward.
Look, I know this is tough but when I was searching for the truth I prayed to God and God alone and Allah swt guided me to Islam. I spent nearly 4 years going back and forth through different translations of the Bible, reading, comparing and the more I learned the more I got closer to Islam and I didn't want to accept it as the truth because it meant everything that I had learned in my life wasn't quite right. It takes more than light to be guided my brother. We sit here and claim to love God but continuously disobey Him by following what is obvious falsehood. We come up with metaphors and creative interpretations to make what is wrong, right. God said not to have any other gods before him, but we somehow put one of His prophets before Him, the Almighty! In ISLAM we believe that Allah swt is closer to us than the veins in our necks. He knows exactly what we are thinking and He tells us in the Quran that when we remember Him, He remembers us. When take one step toward Him, He comes running to us.
But somehow there are these concepts that have been introduced that have some in believing arrogantly that they are "saved" just because they believe. That's another trick of Satan. When you believe that you are good enough to be in the presence of the Almighty God then you really need to check yourself. You were created for nothing more than to worship Him and the least you can do is a human being is learn how to do it in the correct way.
My advice to you is to stop for a moment. Unlearn everything that you've learned and come toward the concept of God as if you are a child and read and learn for yourself. What makes sense and what doesn't make sense? Truth easily stands out from falsehood.
So, according to you: There is God, and then there Jesus and then there is Holy spirit, and you worship all three.
I don't really look at it that way I just see it that I worship the one true God. Muslims bring up the trintiy more then Christians; in fact, way more. I believe in one God period. It is not my business to know what makes God tick in his nature. Jesus doesn't say He is God but He alludes to it and I accept that he is God's son like He claims. The Scriptures say He is and yours say He's not. My question is why would I want ot believe Muhammad over Jesus?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Yes, my own experience observing christians also tell the same: Christians mention the name of and asks from Jesus (pbuh) a lot more often than God. Holy spirit seems to be an after thought.
Yea, I guess I can relate to what your saying here, but I believe there is only one God.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Yes, we affirm that Muhammad (saw) is Allah messenger, just as we affirm that Jesus is Allah messenger.
But we don't worship Muhammad (saw) nor we ask anything from him.
You on the other hand, worship a created being, even the created being was a special one.
By the way, if you are here for the truth, please answer my questions in the other thread. I will keep reminding you.
Thank you.
I know you don't ask anything from Muhammad and you don't pray to him or see him as divine. I didn't say you did. I said you must mention his name with Allah or you cannot be Muslim or in the religion of Islam. I will look on the other threads to answer your question, but I am not sure which one you're referring to.
peace
Excellent question, well as I could remember, I used to claim that I am a Christian but infact I do not go to church or pray or know nothing about it.
However, I always say that I wanted to go to heaven if there is heaven, I wanted to pray to God if there is TRUE GOD, I wanted to have a peaceful life and never hurt others: these were few of my intentions.
Then I started reading about Islam and I always says I am not a reader but I can read the book called Adab Islamia "manners in Islam" over and over again. I decided to go to Islamic school in 2010 & immediately feel I am a Muslim But oh I have to note that I also went to Islamic school on my teenage time back on 2003, but it doesnt mean Islam did not appeal to me, I would say I was not educated enough. So some keys to being a Muslim are as follows: 1. Intention to know the truth about One True God 2. Education 3. Being open minded & analyze and accept the truth
I cannot know for sure what is so special in me why I am chosen to be guided, I can only be very thankful.
By CuriousIncidentWhen the time is right for me, hopefully I will revert to Islam
Inshallah Brother, we are praying for you, keep asking, dont leave any question unanswered and continuet to learn about ISLAM, people revert because they finally discovered the truth,,, inshallah you will find the most peaceful and most beautiful way of life like the rest of us. Ameen
Last edited by Riana17; 01-23-2012 at 11:06 AM.
The HIGHEST accomplishment I can achieve in this worldly life is to be a TRUE MUSLIM. (me)
So you admit that the parts of the Bible that are not the word of God, and are written by humans, are lies.
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
My question is why would I want ot believe Muhammad over Jesus?
It is not a case of believing in one over the other; in Islam we believe in all the Prophets and Messengers of God, including Jesus and including Muhammad (peace be upon them all), and anybody who does not, is not a Muslim.
However, you need to look at the records of what they said, to see if they actually said what you think they said. A large part of the NT is written by humans, some of whom never even met Jesus (peace be upon him) and you yourself just said let every man be a liar. That means you have no authentic record of what Jesus (peace be upon him) said. Whereas in the Qur'an, we do, as given in post no 25, here: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1492906 and he did not claim to be God, or God's son, or divine in any way, but said the same thing that Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) said to his people before him, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one" and the same thing that Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said to people after him, "..It has been revealed to me that Your God is One God.." (18:110), and the same thing that God Himself said: "And say, "Praise to Allah , who has not taken a son and has had no partner in [His] sovereignty and nor has He any protecting friend through dependence; and glorify Him with [great] glorification.". Jesus (peace be upon him) did not preach different to this, either regarding God, regarding God's nature, or regarding himself.
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I am glad you think you have God all firgured.
Why should anyone have to figure the concept of God out themselves? Why should people be left to puzzle over the main concept of a religion? It is precisely because of the messing around the NT authors have done that councils needed to be convened to figure out and finalise what/who/how God was, approx 300 years after the birth of Christ (peace be upon him).
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I am just honest enough to admit I don't
I admire and appreciate your honesty. Many Christians, in the end, admit that they don't really understand, admit that it's just blind faith, and can only respond that the Lord works in mysterious ways.
Imagine, if a school or university had a syllabus for a subject that people had to study, and then take an exam which would either pass or fail them. But the core concept on which that subject depends, is not clearly stated anywhere, there are conflicting statements in the textbook, which don't add up or make sense, and nobody understands it. Would that be acceptable? No. Of course it wouldn't! So why do we accept this when it comes to the most important thing of all - God?
We cannot ascribe such injustice to God. We cannot ascribe to Him that He leaves people in the dark and confusion as to their main belief regarding Him, and that He doesn't state it clearly anywhere, and that it doesn't make sense. This can only be attributed to NT authors, Paul et al, not to God, Glorified and Exalted be He, nor to Jesus (peace be upon him).
The question that started this thread, was why are Christians converting to Islam? Could it possibly be, that they recognise what I have stated above? Yes, but it is only one of many reasons.
I know you wish to defend your faith, as it's what you have believed to be the truth for a long time, but what I would say, is just open your mind to what's being said here, take your time, re-read posts, explore other parts of the forum, and ask questions. You owe it to yourself.
I invite you to explore and believe in the same message of God and the same Ultimate Truth that was given to all the Prophets; Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all) - Our God and the God of all the Prophets and messengers, is One God, without any sons or sharers or associates in His Divinity whatsoever, and we believe in all the Prophets God sent, without exception, as the noblest of humanity sent to guide us, and we do not attribute God's nature to any of them.
Peace.
Last edited by Insaanah; 01-23-2012 at 03:09 PM.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
So you admit that the parts of the Bible that are not the word of God, and are written by humans, are lies.
Yes, there are interpolations and translational errors, but scholars know of them. This doesn't proof wholesale corruption. The Bible was written closer to the time it records than the Quran (Way closer).
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
It is not a case of believing in one over the other; in Islam we believe in all the Prophets and Messengers of God, including Jesus and including Muhammad (peace be upon them all), and anybody who does not, is not a Muslim.
It is to me friend. Jesus called God His father and god called Jesus His son. There is no proof of this being a translation error or interpolation and Allah promised to preserve his word so he preserve the gospel the torah and the Pslams. The Bible states in Gen 21:12 that no prophet comes out of Ishmael. I believe it is God's preserved message.
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
I admire and appreciate your honesty. Many Christians, in the end, admit that they don't really understand, admit that it's just blind faith, and can only respond that the Lord works in mysterious ways.
Thanks, but there is nothing blind about faith when you're trusting in the one and only true God
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
Imagine, if a school or university had a syllabus for a subject that people had to study, and then take an exam which would either pass or fail them. But the core concept on which that subject depends, is not clearly stated anywhere, there are conflicting statements in the textbook, which don't add up or make sense, and nobody understands it. Would that be acceptable? No. Of course it wouldn't! So why do we accept this when it comes to the most important thing of all - God?
Imagine that. Satan is the author of confusion not my God
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one" and the same thing that Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said to people after him, "..It has been revealed to me that Your God is One God.." (18:110). Jesus (peace be upon him) did not preach different to this, either regarding God, regarding God's nature, or regarding himself.
I have no problem believing this. Jesus didn't claim to be God the father but he alluded to His deity by saying he is the son of God. Why does that stumble Muslims? Have you ever heard of Al-'Uzza, al-Lat and Manah?
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
We cannot ascribe such injustice to God. We cannot ascribe to Him that He leaves people in the dark and confusion as to their main belief regarding Him, and that He doesn't state it clearly anywhere, and that it doesn't make sense. This can only be attributed to NT authors, Paul et al, not to God, Glorified and Exalted be He, nor to Jesus (peace be upon him).
Show me where Allah teaches you to understand how he had no beginning and no end. There are things about God we don't know that doesn't constitute confusion
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
The question that started this thread, was why are Christians converting to Islam? Could it possibly be, that they recognise what I have stated above? Yes, but it is only one of many reasons.
From what I can tell thus far, it is a leap of blind faith. I haven't found anything to convince me it is any different than what Joseph Smith experience. Any thing that goes against the ancient word is suspect
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
I know you wish to defend your faith, as it's what you have believed to be the truth for a long time, but what I would say, is just open your mind to what's being said here, take your time, re-read posts, explore other parts of the forum, and ask questions. You owe it to yourself.
It is written: there is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to death
Peace
You keep on saying that you don't worship any partners yet you say you direct your prayers to God THROUGH Jesus (pbuh). So in order to talk to God, you have to talk to someone else to speak for you on your behalf hoping that that one will bring you closer to God. Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Jesus (pbuh) did? Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Abraham (pbuh) did? Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Moses(pbuh) did? Why do that when you can just pray directly to God like Mary (pbuh) did? You don't think that God is powerful enough to hear your prayers without someone else having to deliver them to Him for you? Why, He created you. He just says be and it is! So why would He need a spokesperson? He is the Almighty God!
Yes, but Jesus was God's promised Messiah. I look at it like we have all sinned and deserve to be eternally separated from God. I look at it like God is the terrible Judge and we are before Him guilty as sin. And the Devil is there acting as our prosecuting attorney saying he/she is gulity. I see Jesus as my defense attorney. Who says to the Terrible Just Judge "I purchased Him with my blood, he is clean and saved" God says, cse closed. I see it that without Jesus, I would being facing the Great and Terrible Just Judge on my own being guitly and worthy of hell without a defence. In the OT people would shed the blood of animals to atone for their sin. Study the story of Passover which represents Jesus the lamb of God who's shed blood causes the death angel that claims for hell to pass us by.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
You continuously quote the Bible and say the Bible said this, the Bible said that but do you understand that the Bible that you are reading is not even the same Bible as it was 400 years ago let alone 2,000 years ago?
What? Please show me how the Bible is as corrupted as you say. I am looking to see why I should believe Islam over Christianity. I haven’t been given proof except you saying that the Quran hasn’t had one word change. The Book of Mormon hasn’t change either does that mean it is God’s word? If you are trying to tell me that the whole Bible is totally corrupted, you are going against Islam. I will try and reason with you why I trust the Bible by using the Quran which, btw, never had a divine mandate to be written. Quran means recitation not write! Here is what the Quran says about the Bible you say is 100% corrupted: Torah - "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87). Psalms - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163). Gospel - "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46). The Qu'ran states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. I have no problem with this, but you claim that the Bible is corrupted. If that is so, then you don’t believe the Qu'ran since it states like the Bible does that the Word of God cannot be change or corrupted: "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34). "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115). "For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity," (10:64). During Muhammad’s time, he received the revelation of the Qu'ran from Allah / Gabriel. This means that at that time the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted. This is my proof to you because the Qu'ran states that God's word cannot be corrupted. The Bible says “Thy word oh God is established in the heavens forever” The question I have for you and as you promised to provide this information is "When and where was the Bible corrupted, since the Qu'ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah which can never be altered? Are you telling me you believe man’s power to corrupt the word of Allah to the prophets that came before Muhammad is greater than Allah’s power to preserve even after Allah tells you his word cannot be corrupted. And show me where Muhammad said the Bible is corrupted.
Jesus didn't claim to be God the father but he alluded to His deity by saying he is the son of God.
So you believe in demi-gods? Astagfirullah.
The Greek demigods and goddesses, means that one parent was a god or goddess, and Zeus, the god of the heavens had many children as a result of his romantic involvement with mortals. Remember Hercules, Achilles, Helen?
Ever heard of Mithra?
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Have you ever heard of Al-'Uzza, al-Lat and Manah?
Stop reading those anti-Islamic websites. Stay off of those websites because all you're doing right now is kidding yourself with false information about those so-called satanic verses.
This is what the Quran says about those false idols!
So have you considered al-Lat and al-'Uzza? (19) And Manat, the third - the other one? (20) Is the male for you and for him the female? (21) That, then, is an unjust division. (22) They are not but [mere] names you have named them - you and your forefathers - for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance. [53:19-22]
I look at it like we have all sinned and deserve to be eternally separated from God. I look at it like God is the terrible Judge and we are before Him guilty as sin. And the Devil is there acting as our prosecuting attorney saying he/she is gulity. I see Jesus as my defense attorney. Who says to the Terrible Just Judge "I purchased Him with my blood, he is clean and saved" God says, cse closed. I see it that without Jesus, I would being facing the Great and Terrible Just Judge on my own being guitly and worthy of hell without a defence.
That's the difference right there. In Islam we believe that Allah's (swt) mercy exceeds his wrath. In the Quran Allah (swt) forbids us from even giving up hope in Him. He is capable of forgiving sin without having to have someone tell him what you did in life. He is supreme.
No one is telling you that the whole Bible is corrupted. There are still some parts of the original message that are in tact. We are trying to tell you that major parts of it have been changed, altered, modified, forged to the point where you are now breaking the first commandment by worshiping a man instead of the One God who created that man. All we want for you is to read, listen and learn. That's all anyone here has been telling you to do yet you keep copying and pasting drivel from anti-Islamic websites.
Oldest known Bible goes online
The world's oldest known Christian Bible goes online Monday -- but the 1,600-year-old text doesn't match the one you'll find in churches today.
Discovered in a monastery in the Sinai desert in Egypt more than 160 years ago, the handwritten Codex Sinaiticus includes two books that are not part of the official New Testament and at least seven books that are not in the Old Testament.
The New Testament books are in a different order, and include numerous handwritten corrections -- some made as much as 800 years after the texts were written, according to scholars who worked on the project of putting the Bible online. The changes range from the alteration of a single letter to the insertion of whole sentences.
And some familiar -- very important -- passages are missing, including verses dealing with the resurrection of Jesus, they said.
Excellent question, well as I could remember, I used to claim that I am a Christian but infact I do not go to church or pray or know nothing about it.
However, I always say that I wanted to go to heaven if there is heaven, I wanted to pray to God if there is TRUE GOD, I wanted to have a peaceful life and never hurt others: these were few of my intentions.
You seem to me to be a very nice person. So you are not sure how Allah guided you, but you are thankful he did? Am I understanding correctly? This frustrately leaves me back at square one. I see more things about love and peace during the times Jesus walked the earth recorded in the NT than the Quran. For instance, tThe Bible says love your enemies, bless those that curse you, pray for those who despitefully use you, but the Quran says kill the infidel wherver you find them. There are different kinds of Islam: radical and peaceful Muslim like yourself. If I became a Muslim, I would probably be bent of being radical. So how will radical and peaceful Muslim get along?
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I will look on the other threads to answer your question, but I am not sure which one you're referring to.
But oh I have to note that I also went to Islamic school on my teenage time back on 2003, but it doesnt mean Islam did not appeal to me, I would say I was not educated enough. So some keys to being a Muslim are as follows: 1. Intention to know the truth about One True God 2. Education 3. Being open minded & analyze and accept the truth
When the time is right for me, hopefully I will revert to Islam
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