I believe that there is no verifiable scientific proof that Allah (swt) exists. By this I mean that no one has ever seen, smelled or touched Him. Moses conversed with Him through the burning bush, but we don't have a tape recording of the conversation. No one has measured or defined His nature other than what He has revealed in the Quran. Belief in Allah (swt) is the most fundamental belief that we Muslims and other theists have. Why do you believe in His existence?
My belief in Allah (swt) centers around the requirement I see for a Creator. This perceived need of a Creator is derived from my scientific knowledge (PhD in genetics and molecular biology, mash'Allah) and through the use of my mind to know that the universe and all life (as my friend Eric noted) did not arise by chance, but rather was created by a Higher Power that I know as Allah (swt). It is my choice to believe in Allah (swt) as it is the choice of others to disbelieve.
I will use an analogy that I have stated elsewhere. If I were to walk upon a beach and came upon three bricks (_ _ _) that were stacked on top of each other perfectly aligned like:
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I would conclude that someone came before me and stacked them up in that matter. The fact that there were no footprints left in the sand would not be proof that I was wrong and that the bricks instead became stacked by the random crashing of the waves on the shoreline. Rather I would conclude that these waves erased the footprints of the person who stacked the bricks while leaving the bricks standing. How much more intricate is the design of life systems that are evidence of a Creator?
When you sit for an exam if you study hard & are sincere in the pursuit of knowledge you'll pass, if you cheat you'll be punished and if you slack off you'll fail..
what's your point that the teacher is responsible for your behavior and the route you choose to fulfill your course?
To respond to your post it depends on how you view creation. I think God allows us to do whatever we want. He's not controlling us, but may provide guidance to those that want help or ask for it. Yes he will know the outcome but it's not him that is actually doing the bad deed. It's the people that commit sins and they should be responsible.
Both should be held responsible. If I purposefully lock you in a room with a man whose made it his life mission to kill you, and give him a loaded pistol, it is still his free will to kill you, and he should be held responsible for the grisly act. But I should also be responsible. And in this case I did not create him into being as God is claimed to have done, so God's case is even more culpable.
In fact you bring everything down to the lowest common denominator to fit your lilliputian thought process as it comes to the being of God. As I stated you're unhappy with whatever analogy because you create the scenario and request that we conform to it and then your responses are modulated from there.
I am glad though if for nothing else why it is we categorically refuse secularism and man made laws as a way of life. If we go by the whims of every atheist or every Janist or every Zoroastrian we will get no where!
Both should be held responsible. If I purposefully lock you in a room with a man whose made it his life mission to kill you, and give him a loaded pistol, it is still his free will to kill you, and he should be held responsible for the grisly act. But I should also be responsible. And in this case I did not create him into being as God is claimed to have done, so God's case is even more culpable.
so who has more authority in the room?
its not just a case of killing and being killed is it.
its freedom.
under the threat of death.
...put it into the real world context and that analogy is rather relevant.
although i would condemn violence as a universal educator.
Both should be held responsible. If I purposefully lock you in a room with a man whose made it his life mission to kill you, and give him a loaded pistol, it is still his free will to kill you, and he should be held responsible for the grisly act. But I should also be responsible. And in this case I did not create him into being as God is claimed to have done, so God's case is even more culpable.
Does that not sound like conspiracy to murder to lock me into a room? How would God be responsible for this exactly?
You need to understand God does not tell us how to behave. We make our own choices, but he knows the outcome before we do.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Does that not sound like conspiracy to murder to lock me into a room? How would God be responsible for this exactly?
You need to understand God does not tell us how to behave. We make our own choices, but he knows the outcome before we do.
In the analogy I gave I do not tell the killer how to behave either. I simply put you in the same room, allow him the tools to do it, and don't stop him from doing it. I have a good idea what he's going to do, but unlike God I don't for sure know it. I think I should be held responsible for exposing you to this risk, and I think God should be even more responsible since in his case it isn't just a risk but a certainty. In his case it is little different than doing it himself. In fact it is exactly doing it himself, since he created everything involved and knew how it would turn out while he was creating it.
And as I said above, the free will argument does get us around natural disasters, disease, etc. There is a lot of suffering in the world that isn't caused by us humans.
You're right that your God doesn't work in accordance with my thought processes, but your God is one of your thought processes, and we should judge accordingly.
You're right that your God doesn't work in accordance with my thought processes, but your God is one of your thought processes, and I judge accordingly.
I don't pretend to know About more than what he choose to reveal of his attributes. I don't however, hover around your strata of thoughts at all whether it comes to God or anything else. It just seems under developed and rather puerile to me and I suspect most people!
Which takes me back to my point again, you're thinking how an animal should behave, from a human point of view. Animals might not view it that way, and may view it as an accepted part and parcel of life, and something they know could happen to them, but it may be a way of life that they like, and they might not have it any other way. But you think (thinking from a humans point of view) that it's cruel that a lion should chase after a deer, and that this poor deer is frightened and has to run for it's life, and that an animal should have such instincts. Therefore according to you, the Creator of such a "travesty" must be cruel, sadistic, and morbid, and He got it all wrong.
We would see the diversity in the world, the different ways of life amongst the animal communities, their interconnections, including what we don't fully understand, as signs of an All-Wise Creator. Animals have not been created humans. As animals are resources for us, some are resources for each other. They cannot very well keep farms and slaughter in the human way. They also have a way, which is different to ours, even if we don't understand it or it doesn't sit well with us. As we eat certain animals, so do some of them. They don't hunt for amusement, but to eat.
How they appear to behave naturally with each other in their habitats should not be a cause to reject belief in the existence of the Creator. These animals aren't even aware that someone is jeopardising their belief because of them.
There are things in the world that may not sit well with us, or we don't understand. That does not imply absence of the Creator, or that the Creator is cruel. God is not a thought process, but a reality, that existed before we did, and will still exist after we die. We are the ones, that have a fleeting existence, and indeed once we as individuals did not even exist - we were nothings, nobodies:
Has there not been over Man a long period of Time, when he was nothing - (not even) mentioned? (76:1)
Last edited by Insaanah; 06-06-2013 at 07:19 PM.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
In the analogy I gave I do not tell the killer how to behave either. I simply put you in the same room, allow him the tools to do it, and don't stop him from doing it. I have a good idea what he's going to do, but unlike God I don't for sure know it. I think I should be held responsible for exposing you to this risk, and I think God should be even more responsible since in his case it isn't just a risk but a certainty. In his case it is little different than doing it himself. In fact it is exactly doing it himself, since he created everything involved and knew how it would turn out while he was creating it.
And as I said above, the free will argument does get us around natural disasters, disease, etc. There is a lot of suffering in the world that isn't caused by us humans.
i think that the only argument here is that you dont factor into account a life after death.
because that would change things.
unfortunately i dont have proof of any life after death.
its either there is one god or.... there can only be one.
its two differing ideologies... i think.
at that point its probably on the other people in the room what they want to happen.
splitting of sea's and such like happen less often than one would think.
How does life after death really change things though?
You could consider this life a testing ground, but it would still be a pretty cruel testing ground (especially to animals if it is humans who are being tested). And if God is all knowing then he already knows who will pass and who will fail his test as he is creating both the test and those who will take the test. It makes taking the rather pointless, and creating those he knows will fail the test rather cruel.
In the analogy I gave I do not tell the killer how to behave either. I simply put you in the same room, allow him the tools to do it, and don't stop him from doing it. I have a good idea what he's going to do, but unlike God I don't for sure know it. I think I should be held responsible for exposing you to this risk, and I think God should be even more responsible since in his case it isn't just a risk but a certainty. In his case it is little different than doing it himself. In fact it is exactly doing it himself, since he created everything involved and knew how it would turn out while he was creating it.
And as I said above, the free will argument does get us around natural disasters, disease, etc. There is a lot of suffering in the world that isn't caused by us humans.
Again God would not be responsible because he was not involved in committing the act. Yes he created those that do it but they have been given a choice. I'm aware he knows the outcome but he is not going to get involved. We as people have a responsibility to take care of each other and this world. If God kept on getting involved how are we supposed to learn?
The reason we have natural disasters and diseases is because it is part of life and it actually brings us closer to a certain extent.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
How does life after death really change things though?
You could consider this life a testing ground, but it would still be a pretty cruel testing ground (especially to animals if it is humans who are being tested). And if God is all knowing then he already knows who will pass and who will fail his test as he is creating both the test and those who will take the test. It makes taking the rather pointless, and creating those he knows will fail the test rather cruel.
it is a cruel testing ground. full stop.
i mean iv failed at pretty much everything.
...so take my words with a pinch of salt.
but on the day of judgement we will be brought forward in groups.. although i have no idea how to interpret that.
still no idea of why god would put anybody though there tests.. or how they can be repaired.
Again God would not be responsible because he was not involved in committing the act.
I disagree. He created the person who would do it knowing they would do it. He set the wheels in motion. A person who hires a hitman is responsible for the murder, even though the hitman had free will and could have decided not to do it.
Yes he created those that do it but they have been given a choice. I'm aware he knows the outcome but he is not going to get involved.
I disagree. He created the person who would do it knowing they would do it.
I disagree too. Just because you know someone is going to commit an act does not mean you are responsible.
He already is involved.
He's involved in the sense that he created us. However he is not involved in our daily conduct unless we ask for it through prayer. We have free will and we can do whatever we want.
The reason God is not responsible because we have the responsibility to look after each other and this world. We have been given free will and it comes with a set of responsibilities. So when bad events occur it is people that are responsible for allowing these events to occur and it is our responsibility to deal with them.
Besides God is not simply going to let people do whatever they want in this world and let them get away with it. We will all be accountable for our actions in the next world if our conduct is not dealt with appropriately in this world.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Were you not given the ability to think, do you not have the ability to choose what would be the better choice between two choices?
If somehow you lack the ability to think properly, and you do not have a choice in your actions then sure you shouldn't be held accountable for your actions. But you do don't you?
How then does it make sense for you to place the blame on anything other than yourself?
It's just about thinking things through.
The analogy you gave is faulty as well.
Let's have a look
"Both should be held responsible. If I purposefully lock you in a room with a man whose made it his life mission to kill you, and give him a loaded pistol, it is still his free will to kill you, and he should be held responsible for the grisly act. But I should also be responsible. And in this case I did not create him into being as God is claimed to have done, so God's case is even more culpable."
Locked room = Temporal world/dunya
Man 1 who's life mission is to kill you = Oppressor
Man 2 (the victim) = The oppressed
Loaded gun = Means of oppression
You are saying that because God placed us in a position where we are in this world along with oppressors, He is responsible for the actions of the oppressor? How come you don't take into account that we are also given the ability to think as well as to choose our actions? Furthermore, we are given direct instructions not to oppress.
Just because you know someone is going to commit an act does not mean you are responsible.
It isn't merely that he knows someone will commit an act. He knew they would do so before he created them, and then he went ahead and created them.
The reason God is not responsible because we have the responsibility to look after each other and this world.
Both are responsible. Just because the created beings are responsible doesn't mean the creator who set it all up isn't responsible as well, especially if the creator knows what the creation is going to do if he creates particular creatures a particular way, and then goes ahead and creates them anyway. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this at this point since we're going around in circles now.
format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
You are saying that because God placed us in a position where we are in this world along with oppressors, He is responsible for the actions of the oppressor? How come you don't take into account that we are also given the ability to think as well as to choose our actions? Furthermore, we are given direct instructions not to oppress.
If he created everything while knowing how it would turn out, then he is responsible for everything. It is not relevant to his culpability that the oppressor can choose. He knows what choice the oppressor will make and then presents the victims to the oppressor, and allows the oppressor the means with which to oppress.
If a warden hands deadly weapons out to violent inmates, he is responsible for the carnage that follows. The inmates have the ability to choose not to slaughter the non-violent inmates, but the Warden knows they'll do it and he gives them the means. The violent inmates are responsible for their actions. The warden is responsible as well. This is not a hard concept to grasp, unless you are motivated not to.
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 06-08-2013 at 04:37 AM.
If he created everything while knowing how it would turn out, then he is responsible for everything. It is not relevant to his culpability that the oppressor can choose. He knows what choice the oppressor will make and then presents the victims to the oppressor, and allows the oppressor the means with which to oppress.
If a warden hands deadly weapons out to violent inmates, he is responsible for the carnage that follows. The inmates have the ability to choose not to slaughter the non-violent inmates, but the Warden knows they'll do it and he gives them the means. The violent inmates are responsible for their actions. The warden is responsible as well. This is not a hard concept to grasp, unless you are motivated not to.
You are still using the same flawed analogy. Seems that you would prefer ignoring that the "warden" has given the inmates ability to think as well as the direct instructions not to hurt anyone, and I don't think God "handed" deadly weapons to anyone. Those who want it seek it out of their own desire, they chose to find it.
Actually the one having trouble understanding is you, since you haven't really taken the time to learn about Islam properly. Otherwise I could just tell you that its about ikhtiyar, amaanah, qadr.
You are still using the same flawed analogy. Seems that you would prefer ignoring that the "warden" has given the inmates ability to think as well as the direct instructions not to hurt anyone, and I don't think God "handed" deadly weapons to anyone. Those who want it seek it out of their own desire, they chose to find it.
The inmates have the ability to think and the Warden gives them instructions not to hurt each other, but it is pretty certain they will. The only real flaws in the analogy are that the warden didn't create the inmates and didn't have complete certainty that they would slaughter each other when he allowed them to have weapons. That is why God is more responsible than this example of the warden.
Here is another query regarding the problem of evil and free will. If for the sake of argument I accept that free will makes suffering neccessary despite God being all powerful and all knowing (I don't), then what is heaven like? Is there no free will in heaven or is there suffering?
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more than what he choose to reveal of his attributes. I don't however, hover around your strata of thoughts at all whether it comes to God or anything else. It just seems under developed and rather puerile to me and I suspect most people!
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