Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1”
By Defending-Islam.com Team
When confronted about the fact that their doctrine of Triune gods is in fact addition of different parts which will always give a result of three, many of the Christians respond by saying that it is not "1 + 1 +1 =3" but rather "1 X 1 X 1 = 1".
It is important to note that the Christian understands we are stating that he has claimed that God is divided into distinct parts, all of which have to be added in order to arrive at the whole. However, this Christian rebuttal is the height of sloppiness on their side. The Christian simply thought of some manner in which three number "1"’s could lead to a result of "1" and now presents it as "proof" of their doctrine. He did not think of what addition is in mathematics, nor what multiplication is in mathematics, nor what each of these operations means, nor why do they give the results they give.
As our response, we could mention that “1+ 1 - 1 = 1” and say that in this operation the number “1” also appears three times, so it should be a correct manner of describing the Trinity as per our opponent’s logic, with the obvious conclusion that one of the “persons” of the Trinity would be eliminated altogether. We could also say that “1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 = 1”, so it is logically correct to imagine “God” in 5 persons. Or we could multiply 1 infinitely many times by itself and still get the number 1, so that would mean that the “God” who is supposed to be one can be infinitely many persons as per their logic. So the Christian logic in this case is not unique to “three persons in one Trinity”, but it can be easily expanded to include other operations other than multiplication, as well as use the number “1” as many times as one wishes and still attain the same result.
In any case, what our opponents fail to grasp is that multiplication is not even relevant in this case whatsoever, as multiplication is taking the multiplicand and scaling it by a factor determined by the multiplier. A subtle issue arises here which may not be noticed by many people: Even in this case, it is obviously known that both the multiplicand and the multiplier are indeed different entities, which combine to give some result. It just so happens that in the case of multiplication by one (the identity element), this second element gives a result which is the same as the multiplicand (the first element). But it does not change the fact that the multiplicand and the multiplier are separate and distinct elements, and that they are never treated as the same element when carrying out the multiplication- otherwise there is no operation to be carried out in the first place. This intrinsic fact inherent in all basic mathematical operations has to be kept in mind by al those who bring up this issue, so that they may realize that their example is invalid and has no merit.
So it is extremely obvious that when the Christian talks about three persons as one entity, then they are talking about composition and combination of parts to form a whole and they enter the realm of adding different parts so as to arrive at the whole. This is why it would be inappropriate for a Christian to say that “God” can exist without “The Father”, “The Son”, or “The Holy Ghost” all having existence as “persons” in the Trinity.
Now, if the Christian contends that these three are one in nature and essence (and that hence they are not parts at all), we respond by saying that the very fact that they can differentiate between these three persons and tell them apart means they are not one in nature and they are not one in essence. Otherwise the Christian could say that the Father is the same as the Son, or the Son is the same as the Father, or the Holy Ghost is the same as the Son, and so forth, a reasoning which is totally rejected in their religion.
To conclude, explaining Trinity by presenting the analogy of multiplying the number “1” by itself is utterly flawed and meaningless, as it exposes their brittle understanding of the matter at hand, as well as their denial that “three persons” will always carry with it the meaning of composition of parts into a whole.
What does everyone think of this article ? Do you agree with it because I do ? Can anyone explain it thank you ?
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
I have used that formula myself, but only in response to the common argument that 1+1+1=3, not 1.
The bottom line is that God is greater than being contained in a mathematical formula. So either argument is quite silly, really ...
God cannot be explained my maths.
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
The bible story is coherent and perhaps even moral absent the trinity doctrine (which I haven't seen anywhere within the bible itself). Once you introduce the trinity the story becomes not only incoherent but also very imoral.
Without the trinity, you've basicaly got a Hercules like story, you have the son of God so loving humanity that he pleads with his father, God, to forgive them their sins and grant them salvation. He makes his case not by arguing their virtue or God's forgiving nature (which would have made an even nicer moral story) but by showing how much he loves them, so much that he will sacrifice himself for them. Seeing how much his son loves humanity, God then re-evaluates and grants them salvation. This is a coherent story and one often found in earlier mythologies (including some similarities with Hercules).
Now add the trinity and you've got God sacrificing himself to himself to enable himself to change his own mind and grant salvation. You've made God bloodthirsty, needing blood and suffering, rather than say good works, to convince him to grant Salvation. You've also got vicarious redemption, people being forgiven their wrongs by endorsing the pain and suffering of an innocent volunteer. But most notably, you've got an incoherent story, and I strongly suspect that this is because the trinity was not meant to be part of the story when it was first adopted by early Christians, and that it was added later.
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
I had a discussion with a Christian friend of mine related to this yesterday. He said something about Jesus being the only mediator between man and God. I asked him why we even needed a mediator, and why couldn't we speak directly to God? Even when I was a Christian, it never made sense to me that you pray to God, yet you invoke someone else's name in your prayer.
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
I agree. It makes no sense, does it? Why use a middle man? If God is all powerful and unlimited in the attention he can give etc, then why can't you go to him directly? Clearly if God wanted to, he could make such personal contact, and according to the doctrine, he has in the past. Why do we never hear people asking why he doesn't do it now? Instead we lock people who personally "hear the voice of God" in mental institutions.
I feel the same way about the bible. Its existence seems to be evidence against the central claims of its believers. They claim that (1) God is all powerful and (2) God wants to be known and obeyed by all. But if he was all powerful then he could very easily simply make us know that he is there and what he wants from us, but instead we have this old dusty book that he supposedly wrote or inspired to be written. Clearly he either isn't all powerful, or doesn't want to be perfectly known and understood by all. One of the above claims is refuted by the bible's very existence.
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
I asked him why we even needed a mediator, and why couldn't we speak directly to God? Even when I was a Christian, it never made sense to me that you pray to God, yet you invoke someone else's name in your prayer.
But if you believe that Jesus is God, then by praying to Jesus you pray to God. Same thing!
The concept of Jesus being our mediator is based on two things:
Firstly our sense that he - having lived in human form himself - understands our human condition and suffering very well.
And secondly that the gospel of John reports Jesus to have said this: "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
Personally speaking, I don't have a sense of needing Jesus as a mediator to pray to God. I pray to God, simple as that.
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The bible story is coherent and perhaps even moral absent the trinity doctrine (which I haven't seen anywhere within the bible itself). Once you introduce the trinity the story becomes not only incoherent but also very imoral.
Without the trinity, you've basicaly got a Hercules like story, you have the son of God so loving humanity that he pleads with his father, God, to forgive them their sins and grant them salvation. He makes his case not by arguing their virtue or God's forgiving nature (which would have made an even nicer moral story) but by showing how much he loves them, so much that he will sacrifice himself for them. Seeing how much his son loves humanity, God then re-evaluates and grants them salvation. This is a coherent story and one often found in earlier mythologies (including some similarities with Hercules).
Now add the trinity and you've got God sacrificing himself to himself to enable himself to change his own mind and grant salvation. You've made God bloodthirsty, needing blood and suffering, rather than say good works, to convince him to grant Salvation. You've also got vicarious redemption, people being forgiven their wrongs by endorsing the pain and suffering of an innocent volunteer. But most notably, you've got an incoherent story, and I strongly suspect that this is because the trinity was not meant to be part of the story when it was first adopted by early Christians, and that it was added later.
Christians need the trinity doctrin to explain their belief because in the Old Testament and in all scriptures before the Bible, it was always written that THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.
Then christians introduced the concept that God, JEsus, and the HOly SPirit share godhead. but then they had the problem because three gods does not equal to one God. so there was a contradiction between the christian belief and the belief taught by the old testament. Since christians believe in all the older scriptures and Prophets (including Prophet Abraham and Prophet Moses God's peace and blessing be on them) they couldn't have a different belief from them. so they solved the problem by saying that the three are actually one. but that doesn't make sense since those are three separate beings.
in no way can Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit be one and the same being. even the bible shows that they are three separate beings. Christians will have to accept that they are not 1 but three. and their belief is not monotheistic but polytheistic. when they have accepted this fact they will be able to deal with it.
until then, they are in denial and it's nothing but that.
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
Greetings and peace be with you truthseeker63;
Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1”
The Bible describes a husband and wife as being ‘One’ yet we know they are two different people, often very opposite. So how does a husband and wife become one?
Genesis; 2.24
That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united with his wife, and they become one.
In the spirit of searching for the oneness of God
Eric
You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
Brother Eric, you are intelligent enough to know that a husband and wife are two separate individuals. they are two beings. if you liken God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost to them, then you admit that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. if you claim that they share godhead, then you have three gods and not one, which amounts to polytheism. in that case, you need to explain why in all the preceding scriptures did God say He was one and now you say that according to the bible they are three.
it cannot be explained with the husband and wife example. those are two separate beings but one family.
either you have one God and only One God. Jesus and the Holy Ghost not being Gods. or you have three gods. there is no way that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost (three separate beings) can amount to being one God.
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
it can't be 1x1x1 because one prays to another and even prostrates on his forehead to Him.
if it's 1x1x1, then he's praying to himself
if it's 1/3+1/3+1/3 , then it means that it's incomplete when one "dies",
and if they're all the same and co-equal and co-eternal,
then one can't be the father and the other the son.
because the son can't be co-eternal with the father since the father has to exist first - since the "son" is "only begotten",
so it can't be 1x1x1.
secondly, the verses they use are: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:7
but then we have this:
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John 17:20-23
that would make everyone "god" if you go by the logic of assuming the first verse to be affirming partnership in godhood, more like a hindu doctrine than a monotheistic one.
here's Jesus creating a CLEAR distinction between himself and God: 17And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’”
Mark 10:17-19
is he saying "hey worship me" or is he saying "that isn't me, it's someone else who is not me".???
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
likewise the Bible describes Jesus as being ‘One’ with the Father.
John 10.30
The Father and I are one."
so does John 17:20-23
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
also mean that you are a claimant to Godhood too brother eric?
that would make about 7 billion "gods" on planet earth alone including hitler and stalin and obama, along with my nephews and nieces?
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
Greetings and peace be with you WRITER;
so you admit that Jesus and God are not one being, just as a husband and wife are not one being.
A husband and wife are two people, but the Bible describes them as ‘One’ so how can this be? They could be one family, but this has no great meaning if one of them is a serial killer or adulterer. There has to be some kind of perfection to make the two people as ‘one’
In the spirit of searching for the 'Oneness of God'
Eric
You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
A husband and wife are two people, but the Bible describes them as ‘One’ so how can this be? They could be one family, but this has no great meaning if one of them is a serial killer or adulterer. There has to be some kind of perfection to make the two people as ‘one’
brother eric, when we say, "we are all unanimous on this issue", or "i am one with my people", it means something, it indicates agreement.
but how one can take it to mean that they are one and the same thing or being is beyond reason.
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
Greetings and peace be with you brother Abz2000;
brother eric,
I find it a great blessing and privilege for me a Christian to be called ‘brother’ by a Muslim, in an ideal world we should be as one with our brothers. Just some thoughts; how can a Christian wife and a Muslim husband be as one when they disagree with much of their faith? It seems that love must break down these barriers, the husband loves his wife as he loves himself, the wife loves her husband as she loves herself, and they can then become as ‘one’
when we say, "we are all unanimous on this issue", or "i am one with my people", it means something, it indicates agreement.
I guess it is easier for two Muslims to be as one with each other in agreement, and the same for two Christians to be as one in agreement. But believing the same is not enough to make people as ‘one’ there is the need to love them as you love yourself, we should put God first, our neighbour second and ourselves third.
but how one can take it to mean that they are one and the same thing or being is beyond reason.
I believe the ‘oneness of God is to do with the greatest relationship they can have with each other, and I believe this hangs on the greatest commandments.
Jesus loves God the Father as he loves himself, and he loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.
God the Father loves God the Son as he loves himself, and he loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.
Re: Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1” By Defending-Islam.co
I find it a great blessing and privilege for me a Christian to be called ‘brother’ by a Muslim, in an ideal world we should be as one with our brothers.
Well, if ur a son of Adam, it makes u naturally a brother in humanity
Though the bond of faith for Muslims is a stronger one, I think God Himself chose that super strong mortar.
Maybe I wouldn't say that to someone who believes their ancestors were monkeys or apes, but that's another issue, they're "one" in that they're mammals
What you described as the oneness in love and agreement or purpose sounds good, but it still doesn't explain how that makes Jesus God or God Jesus, because that comment can apply to any one of us:
I believe the ‘oneness of God is to do with the greatest relationship they can have with each other, and I believe this hangs on the greatest commandments.
Jesus loves God the Father as he loves himself, and he loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.
God the Father loves God the Son as he loves himself, and he loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.
But it still doesn't make us God.
And the verse used to justify the trinity has a similar verse which applies to all humanity.
So it still leaves us back at square one in terms of the idea of a trinity which was resolved on at Nicea despite the strong opposition to such an interpretation.
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