In a thread that was started here (so I posted in it) but has since been moved to a Muslim fellowship (advice and support) area of the board (where I won't intrude), YusufNoor made this interesting post.
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
looks at Pygo's post...
bangs head against the wall
and again...
you never cease to amaze me, but this really takes the cake!
of course, as i've stated before, my opinion is that there is no such thing as an atheist; a really radical agnostic maybe...and THOSE you will find in every religion as well.
i'm sure that you realize that, in Islam, it is not acceptable for you 2 to date or marry. but i feel "tempted" to ask, "you don't think that the girl and her family are nutjobs simply by being Muslim?" wouldn't the idea of her worshiping or mostly-worshiping God repulse an (alleged) atheist?
or am i biased by what i see about (alleged) atheists in the media? the obviously believe in God, they just hate Him.
*start a thread*
*start a thread*
*start a thread*
This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist. It perplexes me, because here I am, a non-believer. I am an atheist. Telling yourself I believe in God and just hate him may help you rationalize things for yourself, but I know what I think and what I believe, and what I don't believe. Telling me I believe something I don't and that I feel something I don't is just a weird thing to do.
I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.
When you see outspoken and anti-religious atheists (which is not the majority of atheists) speak against religions, often with disgust and hatred, you are not seeing them hate the Gods. You are seeing them hate the belief systems and the actions of the followers. It isn't the same thing. The closest you will get to them actually hating the Gods would be them judging the Gods as literary characters, like they would Robin Hood or Darth Vader.
Personally, since I was asked, no, I am not such an atheist that is disgusted by people worshiping pretend Gods. I see some therepeutic use to it and I see how it has comforted and given some extra sense of purpose and belonging to people I love. I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.
I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.
Do you have your own theory of why this happens? Why do theists so often accuse atheists of secretly believing in Gods?
They're programmed to do so.. how else do you explain your obsession with an Islamic forum and talks of God and constant assertion of your beliefs? Do you think people here lose sleep over your personal beliefs or lack thereof?
I explain till I’m blue in the face what’s wrong with the “if God made the universe then where did God come from?” argument. You completely ignore everything I say, accuse me of being cryptic and not making any sense without saying why—without asking for any clarification at all—and continue to repeat yourself. Like none of it ever happened.
SubhanAllah, thats exactly how i felt a few months ago on another atheist-related thread.
Theres a whole list of questions that have been completely ignored.
Cant exactly blame them......when they possess no reasonable explanations.
Which makes any sensible conversation close to impossible....
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Therefore I don’t see anything to it but to put you on my “ignore” list and just pray for you. Sorry.
That makes two of us.
Wallahi, it will save you a lot of precious time.
It is one thing to lace your posts with rude language and personal attacks, but if that is going to be the entirety of your post I would ask that you simply private message it so not to take the thread off topic.
In an attempt to get the thread back on topic, I'll post again:
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
"Atheists reject God"
"Atheists hate God"
"Atheists think they know better than God"
"Atheists are arrogant and don't appreciate what God does for them"
"Atheists don't want to be responsible to God"
I have spotted each of these statements, and others like them, on this forum. None of them make any sense if you recognize that atheists don't believe in God.
This guy in the video disagrees with me that the statements above come from theists simply not believing atheists when we say we don't believe in God. I think some of them read from their religions that we all know God exists (we saw that earlier in the thread), so they think that and hold to that no matter what an actual atheist may say.
The guy in the video thinks there is more to it than that. He thinks theists say these things because they feel rejected when the atheist doesn't share their view, and he thinks they do so because they somehow mix their own identity with that of their God.
Regardless of why it happens, it happens a lot. No matter how many times I say I am an atheist and that I do not believe in God, some theists continue to declare or assume that I believe in God.
Do you have your own theory of why this happens? Why do theists so often accuse atheists of secretly believing in Gods?
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 03-25-2013 at 07:54 PM.
Do you have your own theory of why this happens? Why do theists so often accuse atheists of secretly believing in Gods?
I am no theorist but I think that maybe it has to do with not knowing enough about both atheism and their religion in general. I think the people who would have the most problem with accepting that atheists are secretly deviant believers would be those who can't conceive how anyone can deny the existance of God. Sometimes I think maybe just maybe I'm not sure though; that some people emotionally react towards atheists because they are not fully identified with the nature of atheism. The first thing that pops up to any average theist are the likes of Charles Darwin (even though he in a sense was not considered an official atheist but his works tell more than enough to make that conclusion) or Stephen Hawking. That image of a bitter and hateful person who is lashing out on others because of his own failure to understanding the essence of faith- hey I'm not personally speaking but that's what I've observed. And I would have to admit that I think that both parties often don't feel comfortable with each other. They both assume defensive positions and eventhough you state that you have no more a problem with the existance of God than that of which you'd have with believing in UFOs or FSM. It's much more profound than just a good night story mom used to tell before tucking us in bed. It really is an I doubt anyone surpassed the age of even 7 without realizing that Santa Claus was a fictional character if not before if the parents weren't careful enough. The sentiment of God is much more a universal concept than it is an imagenary one.
You maybe think that you have a 'right' to feel confused as to why the maority of theists do infact and in very very real terms get offended by every means the word can hold when they hear an atheists making parellels of God to faeries and other fictional characters. We all have our preconceived ideas about what to expect when talking to an atheist by which I mean there almost always has to be an animosity sparked between which is natural it is the same reason why atheists themselves often gather into groups of people who share the same opinions and beliefs. And one of the reasons which may lead us to think that atheists do actually in some wayor another have a faith depp down is that really and this time answer me honestly. Ever since you found out that Santa Claus was a popular cultural lie that parents tell their children about before Christmas, and after you've fully understood how he can't possibly exist even if you wanted him to?. Did you spend one more second pondering and trying to discover why other kids belive in him? I highly doubt that because simply you grew out of it. It was just a phase and you were more than convinced that one day children will find out santa clas is not real. Then give me just a logical reason why any atheist would 'waste' his or her time argueing and debating with theists on how non-existant they perceive their God is. If it didn't really intruigue them that there is a possible that theists are not wrong afterall and 'maybe' their is a God.
I think the video you posted gave it out pretty clearly when in the last bit of the cartoon displayed the narrator said something like ' the atheist does not 'reject' Gloria but rather he/she rejects the 'false' portryal of Gloria and if Gloria simply showed herself to Anthony then he would surely believe that she exists'. First it not only raises a new standing that atheists are taking now that 'hey we're open to your beliefs as long as you can prove it to us' and guess what we only accept blatant materialistic evidence non other resembled in the request that Gloria has to some how show herself as if she was hiding somewhere from Anthony but not Gloria. It also raises that atheists do infact have a problem with God; in the terms that they reject the protrayal of God defined by theists otherwise even if he did turn out to exist it makes you wonder if they would still believe in him. So an atheist would 'reject' the theistic defined sentiment of God even if he did in fact exist but in order for them to restore that lack of faith you'd have to offer an entirely different image of God; which they'd not accept anyway as stated in your previous post :"You could edit Darth Vader to be a cute bunny with cape and respirator and I still wouldn't believe in him either".
I think most theists do actually believe that atheists have some kind of faith--that's ingrained-- and in a sense they also do believe that no one is born an atheists. And atheist adopts atheists ideas because they embrace notions from evolution and other sources that God does not exist and there is no Intelligent design in the universe by that which I mean they do also belive that it was an age-based phasing process and not an immediate one. We do actaully at least some of us have a hard time believing that. Especially that before a period of time it was fairly common that an atheist would denounced his/her faith with refering to have been a former follower of any faith but then suddenly lost their faith and now they are completelysaying 'No, despite the fact that some of us were brought up in religous house holds, we can't remember a time at which we ever actaully had any faith we always lacked that faith in God other believers around us seemed to have' and which also brings up the arguement that 'there are no atheists in foxholes' that based the foundation that an atheist was a believer but lost his her faith because of the distrust in God or failure to observe patience. I know you didn't ask for such a lengthy reply but I thought if would give a broader perspective of why we actually aren't project but rather predicting.
Berries, that is a very well thought out post. I am about to rush off on a work assignment, so didn't want to dash off a quick response to a post that deserves a full and proper read and response. I will respond later today or tomorrow. I think you make some good points.
Atheists get accused of secretly believing in God so much because for each insistence from their writers that they don't believe that God even exists in the first place there are three spittle-flecked criticisms of His character, sounding every bit as harsh and sincere as they would be if spoken about a particularly annoying next-door neighbor. It also looks suspicious that it's so awfully rare to find a single one of these people who, despite their being so allegedly in a position of theoretical indifference (seeing as how they're talking about someone who isn't supposed real at all), is ever willing to admit to the possibility of a loving or beneficent Deity. Pretty much without exception you hear the same story every time, to the point of exhausted cliche: "The only kind of God I could even conceive of, let alone see myself considering for a moment, is a cruel and merciless one, and even that kind looks unlikely enough." But of course there is a very easy alternate explanation for the latter: It's all about Christianity, just like I said. Their antireligious sentiments are mere youthful backlash.This has been studied and written about.
Last edited by IAmZamzam; 03-25-2013 at 09:31 PM.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
I recall a story of when some brothers went to give dawah to an atheist man who was looking after his daughter while his wife was at work. He let his daughter (still a child) play on the street, while he stood outside and talked to the daiee's.
His daughter ran out onto the street and narrowly missed getting run over by a car... the first words out of the atheists mouth at that point where, "Oh God"...
...the daiee's looked at him, and then smiled, then just walked away... what can you tell a guy who is so compromised that he hasn't figured out what he is yet?
I think atheists need to sit down and figure out how life started. This world cannot start from nothing unless if you believe life/material comes from nothing. You can argue where did God come from. Well we will all find out when we die. I believe in this world there must be a creator as we don't have things popping out from nowhere.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
I wish I can edit my post. There are so many typos and grammatical errors. But I can't because I'm still a limited member so I apologize for the inconveniency it caused for people reading it.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
But I'll make an attempt to correct and add some of the things I forgot to mention.
format_quote Originally Posted by Berries'forest
You maybe think that you have a 'right' to feel confused as to why the majority of theists do infact and in very very real terms do get offended by every means the word can hold when they hear an atheist making parellels and comparisons of God to faeries and other fictional characters.That's because we take it personally and also we take it as either a fixed position of general dismissal or just plain disrespect. We all have our preconceived ideas about what to expect when talking to an atheist on religious matters. By which I mean there almost always has to be an animosity sparked between both parties which are natural and if it wasn't that serious enough and atheists did really think of God as non existant why do we see that they pay excessive effort in refuting religious claims and criticisng religious beliefs. That animosity is the fuel that leads a theist to think that atheists do really have some kind of faith that they are struggling to repress and therefore we normally would think then why are they so passionate about discussing religious issue. If they really are indifferent then that should be clear by disinterest and not the opposite. Also there is the sense of belonging between theists which is natural it is the same reason why atheists themselves often gather into groups with people who share the same opinions and beliefs. One of the reasons which may lead us to think that atheists do actually in some way or another have a faith deep down inside is tht we can't find any possible reason as to why they claim that they are only interested in religion just to broaden their perspective of the world of theists. I have a question to ask you and really and this time answer me honestly. Ever since you found out that Santa Claus was a popular cultural lie that parents tell their children about before Christmas, and after you've fully understood how he can't possibly exist even if you wanted him to?. Did you spend one more second pondering and trying to discover why other kids still believe him to be true? I highly doubt that. Because simply you grew out of it. It was just a phase and you were more than convinced that one day other children will find out santa clas is not real. Then give me just a logical reason why any atheist would 'waste' his or her time argueing and debating with theists on how non-existant they perceive their God is. If it didn't really intruigue them that there is a possiblity that theists may not wrong afterall and 'maybe' their is a God.
First it not only raises a new standing that atheists are taking now that 'hey we're open to your beliefs as long as you can prove it to us' and guess what we only accept blatant materialistic evidence non other which is clearly resembled in the request the narrator pleaded that Gloria has to some how show herself to Anthony before he is fully convinced. As if she was hiding somewhere from Anthony but not Theresa.[/
An atheist adopts atheistic ideas because they embrace notions from evolution theory and other sources that God does not exist and that there is no Intelligent design in the universe which obviously don't adapt very well with religious beliefs. We do also believe that it was an age-based phasing process and not an immediate one contary to what atheists are saying now ( lack or loss of faith issue).And we do actaully at least some of us have a hard time believing that. Especially that before a period of time it was fairly common that an atheist whom denounced his/her faith would refer to have been a former follower of any particular faith when they were younger but then suddenly lost their faith and now they switched arguements in which firmly saying 'No, despite the fact that some of us were brought up in religous house holds, we can't remember a time at which we ever actaully had any faith to begin with. We always lacked that faith in God other believers around us seemed to have'. Which also brings up the arguement that 'there are no atheists in foxholes' is what based the foundation that an atheist was a believer but lost his her faith because of their distrust in God or failure to observe patience. I know you didn't ask for such a lengthy reply but I thought if would give a broader perspective of why we actually aren't projecting but rather predicting.
I think atheists need to sit down and figure out how life started. This world cannot start from nothing unless if you believe life/material comes from nothing. You can argue where did God come from. Well we will all find out when we die. I believe in this world there must be a creator as we don't have things popping out from nowhere.
Don't even think about it. First off I’ve explained before that I’ve tried and tried and tried to explain what’s wrong with the “where did God come from” evasion before--about six totally different things wrong with it--and it does not work. The reason for this is because it’s an evasion. They need their defense mechanism very badly. It’s just an excuse to avoid the question of where the universe came from. That’s why it’s never brought up in any other context whatsoever, and that’s why they cling to it so ardently and refuse to let go under any circumstances. It’s like playing tug-of-war with a stubborn dog who’s gotten hold of your valuables.
Second, like I’ve said before semantics is their rod, their shield and their armor. So because of the age and prevalence of the “something from nothing” argument they’ve made sure in recent times to come into this issue so well covered these days that it's not even funny. It's just too easy: all they have to do is redefine the word "nothing" so as to mean "a whole lot of different somethings including a slew of physical laws, a lot of mathematical principles and a ton of fields—not to mention a whole heaping lot of luck" and they're off the hook. Their materialistic way of looking at the world, you see, already necessitates that they take all of these things completely for granted so as not to come dangerously close to teleological thinking. On the rare occasion that they do think about them at all they have all kinds of further instances of semantic sleight-of-hand they can use with which to continue the task of not having to consider where any of these somethings come from or how they end up getting patterned so neatly and giving such order to the world. Most especially by, once again, evading the issue and deflecting it back onto God: where did He come from? Who designed Him? What laws is He subject to? You see their game? Deflection and semantics, dear boy, it’s all about that. In an argument a materialist’s subconscious mind revolves almost completely around those two grooves. Remember that and you’ll avoid any number of mistakes, and number of migraines.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
I recall a story of when some brothers went to give dawah to an atheist man who was looking after his daughter while his wife was at work. He let his daughter (still a child) play on the street, while he stood outside and talked to the daiee's.
His daughter ran out onto the street and narrowly missed getting run over by a car... the first words out of the atheists mouth at that point where, "Oh God"...
...the daiee's looked at him, and then smiled, then just walked away... what can you tell a guy who is so compromised that he hasn't figured out what he is yet?
Answer: nada... just pray for him.
I took World Religion class last year.
Our teacher told us about his childhood best-friend. My teacher and his friend were raised Christian (Roman Catholic) but the friend started moving away and away from religion doubting God and his existence and by the age of 16, he stopped going to Church with his family. The friend started having a good life, having a Girlfriend, getting good marks, part-time job etc.
Skip time; the man marries a woman and they are having a wonderful life. Both have jobs and they get along just fine with one-another. The friend and his wife decided to have a baby now, the mans WISH in life was to have a child. It took a while but it worked, the wife got gotten pregnant, they were really excited. The child was born and the family thought everything was going to be alright. A month after birth, the child was diagnosed with Cancer.
Now tell me what a man does when his child who he always wishes he had id affected by Cancer? Does he go to doctor and begs to cure his son? Kill himself? What does he do? In times of desperation, he chose to believe in God once again asking to cure his son suffering, crying, dying.
First off I’ve explained before that I’ve tried and tried and tried to explain what’s wrong with the “where did God come from” evasion before--about six totally different things wrong with it--and it does not work. The reason for this is because it’s an evasion. They need their defense mechanism very badly. It’s just an excuse to avoid the question of where the universe came from. That’s why it’s never brought up in any other context whatsoever, and that’s why they cling to it so ardently and refuse to let go under any circumstances. It’s like playing tug-of-war with a stubborn dog who’s gotten hold of your valuables.
It can be used to divert from the main question of where did the universe comes from. However, not all atheists are proposing this question to avoid the main topic. You cannot deny that there are some atheists who sincerely want to know where God has come from.
Second, like I’ve said before semantics is their rod, their shield and their armor. So because of the age and prevalence of the “something from nothing” argument they’ve made sure in recent times to come into this issue so well covered these days that it's not even funny. It's just too easy: all they have to do is redefine the word "nothing" so as to mean "a whole lot of different somethings including a slew of physical laws, a lot of mathematical principles and a ton of fields—not to mention a whole heaping lot of luck" and they're off the hook. Their materialistic way of looking at the world, you see, already necessitates that they take all of these things completely for granted so as not to come dangerously close to teleological thinking. On the rare occasion that they do think about them at all they have all kinds of further instances of semantic sleight-of-hand they can use with which to continue the task of not having to consider where any of these somethings come from or how they end up getting patterned so neatly and giving such order to the world. Most especially by, once again, evading the issue and deflecting it back onto God: where did He come from? Who designed Him? What laws is He subject to? You see their game? Deflection and semantics, dear boy, it’s all about that. In an argument a materialist’s subconscious mind revolves almost completely around those two grooves. Remember that and you’ll avoid any number of mistakes, and number of migraines.
LOL you just called me a dear boy. XD I appreciate the response and I will keep it in mind.
I will repeat. Some atheists are curious and want to know more about God. Who is God, where has he come from, why has he created us and so on. These are the types of questions many people ask, even believers. Also I'm aware some atheists use these arguments to avoid addressing the main issue.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Oh, I hope you didn't think of that as a threat or anything!
You cannot deny that there are some atheists who sincerely want to know where God has come from...These are the types of questions many people ask, even believers.
No, I've never seen this--around me at least. Maybe if they're three. If they were sincere then then I'd at least occasionally hear them bring it up at other times.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
Oh, I hope you didn't think of that as a threat or anything!
You kinda caught me off surprise.
No, I've never seen this--around me at least. Maybe if they're three. If they were sincere then then I'd at least occasionally hear them bring it up at other times.
Okay I understand. I admit I haven't met many atheists who sincerely ask these questions but I'm sure there are a few that do. Most atheists on forums and Internet have already made up their minds so it is unlikely you will come across atheists online who want to see knowledge.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Our teacher told us about his childhood best-friend. My teacher and his friend were raised Christian (Roman Catholic) but the friend started moving away and away from religion doubting God and his existence and by the age of 16, he stopped going to Church with his family. The friend started having a good life, having a Girlfriend, getting good marks, part-time job etc.
Skip time; the man marries a woman and they are having a wonderful life. Both have jobs and they get along just fine with one-another. The friend and his wife decided to have a baby now, the mans WISH in life was to have a child. It took a while but it worked, the wife got gotten pregnant, they were really excited. The child was born and the family thought everything was going to be alright. A month after birth, the child was diagnosed with Cancer.
Now tell me what a man does when his child who he always wishes he had id affected by Cancer? Does he go to doctor and begs to cure his son? Kill himself? What does he do? In times of desperation, he chose to believe in God once again asking to cure his son suffering, crying, dying.
Just as a child who falls over and scrapes its knee in a hospital corridor, running past doctors and nurses to seek out his/her mother for comfort... so should humans in their time of need, seek out their creator it is after all, completely natural to do so.
but many have gone cold in heart, and therefore hate on a God they say they don't believe exists. They have veils on their hearts.
No, it isn't. Anything beyond that absence of belief in God goes beyond mere atheism.
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It can mean mean the atheist doesn't believe in God or that the atheist believes there is no God.
No, it isn't. Anything beyond that absence of belief in God goes beyond mere atheism.[/quote]Perhaps you will be so kind as to humor me and explain the difference.
Ever since you found out that Santa Claus was a popular cultural lie that parents tell their children about before Christmas, and after you've fully understood how he can't possibly exist even if you wanted him to?. Did you spend one more second pondering and trying to discover why other kids still believe him to be true? I highly doubt that. Because simply you grew out of it.
That is an interesting point. So you are basically saying, "Would such a kid want to 'hang out' with other kids who believed in Santa Claus or would he feel they were too immature for him to relate to"?
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it is after all, completely natural to do so.
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