Yes, Atheists do Exist.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts.

Let me get this straight. You're telling us to accept that you are quite sincere about thinking of God as being completely on par with fairies...

and also expecting us to think of the sincerity involved in this kind of elitist blanket statement as being...a good thing.

I can't believe my eyes. Even your pleas for tolerance contain intolerance.

Merely telling somebody that you're not setting out to make them angry is about as likely to have an effect on whether they get angry--or even, for that matter, on whether they rightly should--as adding "no offense" is to make hate speech sound less offensive, or "don't get me wrong" is to somehow magically prevent someone from getting you wrong. Disclaimers are not "get out of jail free" cards, and neither are (alleged) good intentions.

format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam

Let me get this straight. You're telling us to accept that you are quite sincere about thinking of God as being completely on par with fairies...

Correct.

and also expecting us to think of the sincerity involved in this kind of elitist blanket statement as being...a good thing.

Correct.

You would rather I lie?

If you take offence to my not believing in something you believe in, I have no way of controlling that. I didn't choose not to believe. I simply don't, just as I presume you don't believe in ghosts (if that is the case). I can understand you thinking me blind, etc. But to be offended by my mere lack of belief makes little sense to me.

And why do you say elitist? What is elitist about my saying I don't believe in the supernatural?

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren

But you must know this. God Almighty Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has given us information and instructions for mankind. One of them is to believe in Him and to worship Him.

But I don't know that. I don't believe that even a little bit.

So by your unbelief there are consequences, if you didn't know them before then I am telling you now that ALL unbelievers in Him will go to hell fire, there are no exceptions to this rule.

I don't believe that either.

You may believe this or you may not but it's your choice and we now know what it is.

No, it isn't my choice. Without evidence I find convincing, I'm not going to believe. It doesn't matter how hard I try. Can you believe something you don't simply by trying? Could you believe you are an elephant if doing so would save your life? I don't think so.

In my estimation all atheists are arrogant people who thinks that they know better than God Almighty.

They don't believe God Almighty exists, so of course they think they know better than something that doesn't exist. That isn't arrogance.

By the way, are you a scientist?

Not by trade. But I do enjoy science, sure.

Even when an atheist flat out admits to total disbelief proper he still insists on calling what he has a "lack of belief". You people are never going to give up with that phrase, are you?

Look, BELIEVE what you want to but be careful how you express it. You've just compared someone else's most deeply cherished beliefs to fairies and ghosts and then you asked how anyone can possibly think of you as an elitist. Are you sure you understand what makes you blind in my eyes? Is it really that hard to connect the dots here? Or am I trying to describe the difference between green and blue to a man with no eyes?

Of course atheists exist. Look there is a topic created by a member who is an atheist. DUH! = They simply lack belief in a higher being.

format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam

Even when an atheist flat out admits to total disbelief proper he still insists on calling what he has a "lack of belief". You people are never going to give up with that phrase, are you?

It isn't the same thing. I do not know with 100% certainty that there are no supernatural beings. I do, however, not believe that there are. Just like I do not know for certain that I am not on TV right now, but I do not believe that I am. I do find me being on TV far more likely though, so maybe that's not a good analogy.

Look, BELIEVE what you want to but be careful how you express it. You've just compared someone else's most deeply cherished beliefs to fairies and ghosts and then you asked how anyone can possibly think of you as an elitist. Are you sure you understand what makes you blind in my eyes? Is it really that hard to connect the dots here? Or am I trying to describe the difference between green and blue to a man with no eyes?

I find it more plausible that I could be on TV than that there could be supernatural beings like ghosts or Gods. To show I actually don't believe (and you can see how I have to do that, since posts are claiming I actually do believe) I made a comparison to something I find equally unlikely to exist. I chose Ghosts and Faeries for good reason, instead of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, etc. I chose Ghosts and Faeries because there are people who believe in ghosts just as strongly as you believe in God, and there were (and maybe still are) people who believed in Faeries just as strongly as well.

Making such a comparison seems to be the only way to get through to believers that I actually don't believe. And even then, people will continue to insist that atheists don't exist and that we are in denial or that we are rebelling against God, etc. We exist. I am one.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Bingo!

You win a cookie.

YAY I WIN. LOVE YOU *HUGS*

I will give you a cake.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

In a thread that was started here (so I posted in it) but has since been moved to a Muslim fellowship (advice and support) area of the board (where I won't intrude), YusufNoor made this interesting post.

This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist. It perplexes me, because here I am, a non-believer. I am an atheist. Telling yourself I believe in God and just hate him may help you rationalize things for yourself, but I know what I think and what I believe, and what I don't believe. Telling me I believe something I don't and that I feel something I don't is just a weird thing to do.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.

When you see outspoken and anti-religious atheists (which is not the majority of atheists) speak against religions, often with disgust and hatred, you are not seeing them hate the Gods. You are seeing them hate the belief systems and the actions of the followers. It isn't the same thing. The closest you will get to them actually hating the Gods would be them judging the Gods as literary characters, like they would Robin Hood or Darth Vader.

Personally, since I was asked, no, I am not such an atheist that is disgusted by people worshiping pretend Gods. I see some therepeutic use to it and I see how it has comforted and given some extra sense of purpose and belonging to people I love. I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.

I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

misunderstood again

i meant, tell us about you and the sister!

kind of a waste of time to talk about my opinion on atheism, cuz it ain't gonna change. the first part of the shahadah id there is no god (ilah) worthy of worship. it doesn't mean God specifically, an ilah is ANYTHING that you worship. if you are disobeying God, you are using guidelines and/or sentiments of your own instead of Allah's. therefore, you put yourself as a god. whatever rhyme, reason, logic you use to do it is therefore your belief system. that is your "religion". EVERYONE has a ilah of some sort, be it luck, fortune, fate, scientific reason, etc. An atheist is making the declaration that Allah doesn't exist. you CAN'T prove that! so, you are pretty sure maybe, but that is agnosticism. like i said, ain't no such thing as an atheist.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.

cool! i guess i see most (alleged) atheists as those who try to force their view on others. it is like they think that anyone who CAN believe in God is an idiot. i guess for not using whatever reason that they themselves used to come about their position.

were your mom and dad (allegedly) atheists?

how do you approach the subject with the sister? what do you do when it is time for prayer? if she decided at the last minute that she could not marry you because you are not a Muslim, would you accept that?

very curious

peace

It isn't the same thing. I do not know with 100% certainty that there are no supernatural beings. I do, however, not believe that there are. Just like I do not know for certain that I am not on TV right now, but I do not believe that I am. I do find me being on TV far more likely though, so maybe that's not a good analogy.

Okay, then, I guess most people “lack belief” in pretty much everything. We’re going to have to go to a lot of effort to redefine out terminology regarding most human viewpoints on every subject in the world, if it’s about total 100% certainly.

Come on, man! “Belief” and “sheer surety” are not synonyms! You’re better than this.

I find it more plausible that I could be on TV than that there could be supernatural beings like ghosts or Gods. To show I actually don't believe (and you can see how I have to do that, since posts are claiming I actually do believe) I made a comparison to something I find equally unlikely to exist. I chose Ghosts and Faeries for good reason, instead of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, etc. I chose Ghosts and Faeries because there are people who believe in ghosts just as strongly as you believe in God, and there were (and maybe still are) people who believed in Faeries just as strongly as well.

You want a skeptical analogy from a skeptic which doesn’t insult believers? It’s easy as pie to do. BAM! RIGHT HERE! Robert Lancaster’s “mile run” analogy. It can be fitted to all kinds of different situations, I reckon. It’s quite telling that he seemed to come up with it so effortlessly whereas most of the religious skeptics I talk to, like you, always gripe to me demanding to know what on earth they’re supposed to compare God to if not Santa Claus and fairies and flying spaghetti monsters. It’s so revealing regarding the nature of your psychologies, in fact, that it calls to mind what Stanhope said about how in life you meet personalities so extravagant that the boldest playwright would never venture to set them forth on the page. What you’re doing is nothing new, you know. It wasn’t even new in The Prophet’s own time:

While they call upon God for succour—‘Woe upon thee! Believe; surely God’s promise is true’; then he says, ‘This is naught but the fairy-tales of the ancients’—such men are they against whom has been realized the Word concerning nations that passed away before them, men and jinn alike; they were losers. (Qur’an 46:17-18, Arberry)

Making such a comparison seems to be the only way to get through to believers that I actually don't believe. And even then, people will continue to insist that atheists don't exist and that we are in denial or that we are rebelling against God, etc. We exist. I am one.

Has it occurred to you that you’re only digging yourself in deeper with these comparisons? That with all this elitist talk of fairies and ghosts maybe you’re making yourself sound more like it’s all about pride and not at all about “lack of belief”?

Of course atheists exist. They are those whose haven´t find right path - yet. Why they are so interesting to tell how they are exist? Maybe Allah who sees to everyones deepest wishes and dreams has put them to looking for the truth.

Who knows.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist. It perplexes me, because here I am, a non-believer. I am an atheist. Telling yourself I believe in God and just hate him may help you rationalize things for yourself, but I know what I think and what I believe, and what I don't believe. Telling me I believe something I don't and that I feel something I don't is just a weird thing to do.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.

When you see outspoken and anti-religious atheists (which is not the majority of atheists) speak against religions, often with disgust and hatred, you are not seeing them hate the Gods. You are seeing them hate the belief systems and the actions of the followers. It isn't the same thing. The closest you will get to them actually hating the Gods would be them judging the Gods as literary characters, like they would Robin Hood or Darth Vader.


I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

Couple things I'd like to say

1) I do not think atheism based on the scientific method exists. You get a bunch of scientists and pseudo-scientists (mostly this) who come in an try to use science to somehow prove atheism. When in reality, atheism is more faith-based than really any religion out there. One must make a huge leap of faith when deciding to become an atheist. Going strictly by science, and no faith, one would probably land somewhere in agnosticism. But you are right in saying that atheism does exists. It is a belief-system just like Judaism, Christianity and so on.



2) You say you see danger in religion. Well, is that in religion, or in fundamentalism? Because fundamentalism is not in any way restricted to religion. It can occur in any group-phenomenon.