Taking scripture literally

format_quote Originally Posted by kkawohl1

The Holy Books (Qur’an, Torah, Bible) should be used as inspirational stories of the past and should not be taken literally. Allah's/God's intellect is not stagnant; it is as progressive as he wants ours to be.

One must keep an open mind in order to grasp the truth. Fiction and fantasy cloud the mind when one believes that supernaturalism can occur in our universe; that would violate Allah's/God's own laws of nature.

Greetings,

The Holy Quran is a Book of Guidance, not stories, you'll be surprised to know that Prophet Joseph (a.s) story is the only one that is mentioned as a narrative you can say, rest of the incidents are just part of the actual stories and Allah (swt) in His Pure Wisdom has chosen to mention only parts of those as again the Purpose of the Quran is to provide parables, teach lessons of truth.

As for the Supernatural or basic Laws of nature that we witness every day come from the same One and Only AlMighty. So what you or I might consider as supernatural in fact has its source in the same for He is directing both.

(10:03) Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then He established Himself upon the Throne, directing all things.

Christians, Jews and Muslims ALL claim that they live by the Word of God. They claim that Allah/God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to the common folk in the writings of the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an. Man cannot physically hear God's words therefore any claims of having heard God's words are incorrect. God does not contradict himself, it is man's claims of having heard God's instructions physically that is contradictory.

Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were "messengers of God" whose mind interpreted their spirit's interaction with the Spirit of God according to their conditioning in that time period. Subsequent messengers were Muhammad, Ahmad, and Bah'u'llh. A messenger's spirit's interaction with Allah/God in our present time period, if that person's mind has voided all superstitions, would interpret the "Will of God" somewhat different than what is written in the Holy Books.

There will always be subsequent messengers as long as mankind exists. One must question if the goal was accomplished...& establish therefore that all religions are basically correct. Prophets of past who claimed having a personal contact with God had been inspired by the spiritual existence, thereby interpreting this ecstasy to the best of their ability and applying this wisdom to a time and date when kings, dictators and tribal leaders ruled the masses.


During our short lives here, can we all get along as children of Allah/God?

Everyone’s existence is logical and has a purpose. We are basically tiny energy bubbles within a larger energy bubble called earth; that is within an even larger energy bubble that is our universe. Our main purpose in life is to accumulate new positive experiences that will add to the glory of the ultimate spiritual existence that guides the development of the universe like a master planner; call it God, Allah, Jehovah or whatever you wish.

The DNA within us controls our spirituality and is tied to this force, it is converted to spiritual energy when we die and added to the progressive and accumulative energy that is used to create other forces within the universe. The law of nature in the “physical” universe binds everything with this energy or force. It is invisible to us, yet it is the most powerful, ultimate creator, but it nevertheless cannot invade our physical existence.

During our physical existence our spirit can tap into this spiritual energy and receive inspirations and blessings to accomplish inestimable feats that can make our existence very pleasurable.

format_quote Originally Posted by kkawohl1

Christians, Jews and Muslims ALL claim that they live by the Word of God. They claim that Allah/God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to the common folk in the writings of the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an. Man cannot physically hear God's words therefore any claims of having heard God's words are incorrect. God does not contradict himself, it is man's claims of having heard God's instructions physically that is contradictory.

Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were "messengers of God" whose mind interpreted their spirit's interaction with the Spirit of God according to their conditioning in that time period. Subsequent messengers were Muhammad, Ahmad, and Bah'u'llh. A messenger's spirit's interaction with Allah/God in our present time period, if that person's mind has voided all superstitions, would interpret the "Will of God" somewhat different than what is written in the Holy Books.

There will always be subsequent messengers as long as mankind exists. One must question if the goal was accomplished...& establish therefore that all religions are basically correct. Prophets of past who claimed having a personal contact with God had been inspired by the spiritual existence, thereby interpreting this ecstasy to the best of their ability and applying this wisdom to a time and date when kings, dictators and tribal leaders ruled the masses.


During our short lives here, can we all get along as children of Allah/God?

Everyone’s existence is logical and has a purpose. We are basically tiny energy bubbles within a larger energy bubble called earth; that is within an even larger energy bubble that is our universe. Our main purpose in life is to accumulate new positive experiences that will add to the glory of the ultimate spiritual existence that guides the development of the universe like a master planner; call it God, Allah, Jehovah or whatever you wish.

The DNA within us controls our spirituality and is tied to this force, it is converted to spiritual energy when we die and added to the progressive and accumulative energy that is used to create other forces within the universe. The law of nature in the “physical” universe binds everything with this energy or force. It is invisible to us, yet it is the most powerful, ultimate creator, but it nevertheless cannot invade our physical existence.

During our physical existence our spirit can tap into this spiritual energy and receive inspirations and blessings to accomplish inestimable feats that can make our existence very pleasurable.

Thank you very much. I don't agree with part about persons you mentioned Ahmad and Bahullah, however all Prophet's of Allah (swt) you mentioned taught the same, whether Abraham,Jesus or Muhammad (saw), compare their teachings and see for your self.

As for your detailed explanation about the spiritual existence, I don't understand what is it your trying to tell exactly?

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z

Thank you very much. I don't agree with part about persons you mentioned Ahmad and Bahullah, however all Prophet's of Allah (swt) you mentioned taught the same, whether Abraham,Jesus or Muhammad (saw), compare their teachings and see for your self.

As for your detailed explanation about the spiritual existence, I don't understand what is it your trying to tell exactly?

There will always be subsequent messengers as long as mankind exists. No man can dictate to, or restrict Allah's wishes or desires. If Allah desires to send new messengers, he will do so regardless of what is written by fallible men in their Holy Books.

The spiritual existence has been given a name by mankind. Some call him/it God, Allah, Jehovah etc.

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z

Greetings,

The Holy Quran is a Book of Guidance, not stories, you'll be surprised to know that Prophet Joseph (a.s) story is the only one that is mentioned as a narrative you can say, rest of the incidents are just part of the actual stories and Allah (swt) in His Pure Wisdom has chosen to mention only parts of those as again the Purpose of the Quran is to provide parables, teach lessons of truth.

As for the Supernatural or basic Laws of nature that we witness every day come from the same One and Only AlMighty. So what you or I might consider as supernatural in fact has its source in the same for He is directing both.

(10:03) Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then He established Himself upon the Throne, directing all things.

Six days for Allah could be six trillion years for us.

God set the laws of nature, which assert that truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that cannot be proven to be incorrect. It is a doctrine and proclamation that spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the spirit of man. Supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring. (Transcendology) If God were to interfere in the natural existence he would violate his own infallible laws of nature, which is an impossibility. God created man and the universe and guides its development like a Master Planner, without any physical interference.

My spiritual encounter guided me to compose the following poem.

The Intelligent Designer proclaims

I am the Intelligent Designer;
I am what mankind has decided to call God.
I did not come from nowhere.
I play no magic tricks on man.
I did not create the earth by casting spells.
I had a humble beginning the same as man;
My beginning was at the dawn of spirituality.
My wisdom grows as more spirits unite
After the cessation of life after much physical strife.
Throughout time I have been named God,
Allah, Jehovah, The Great Spirit, and many more.
I do not judge man for his vanity or naivety
To be the one who claims to please me the most.
I am easy to please. I require very little.
I only want you to do what is best for mankind.
I will bless you and wish you well.
I will inspire your mind and you will
Accomplish the unfathomable.
I require no worship. I need nothing from man.
I am self-sufficient. I am spirit.

Develop your spirit wisely, the best that you can.
Live your life for the betterment of man.
Your spirit will soon be with me and then
Together we will see and traverse the universe.
There are many wonders to behold,
Your spirit will soar.
You will partake in all the wisdom
That has been gathered from the beginning of time.
The stars will be your playgrounds.
You can play with the animals,
Be with your loved ones,
Listen to the greatest opera,
Stage or musical performances,
Or you can just relax next to a bubbling brook
And enjoy the scenery.
You feel no pain, despair,
Heartache, or negative emotions.
You are now One with me.
You are with the Intelligent Designer
You are with God my child.

format_quote Originally Posted by kkawohl1

Six days for Allah could be six trillion years for us.

God set the laws of nature, which assert that truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that cannot be proven to be incorrect. It is a doctrine and proclamation that spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the spirit of man. Supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring. (Transcendology) If God were to interfere in the natural existence he would violate his own infallible laws of nature, which is an impossibility. God created man and the universe and guides its development like a Master Planner, without any physical interference.

Thank you. Actually MuslimInshalla has already made it clear what Quran says about the revelation, so nothing further to be added.

Proof of our Belief in the system of revelation and spiritual truths is the Quran. What is your proof for all that you have typed?

Allah (swt) has informed us several places in the Quran that the nations of the past created their own beliefs but had no hard evidence to back it to show that it truly comes from the AlMighty Lord God Himself. So I would ask you to bring a revelation that informs you of all of what you've mentioned.

Claiming that because it is written in the Qur'an...is not proof.

As I stated above:
Christians, Jews and Muslims ALL claim that they live by the Word of God. They claim that Allah/God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to the common folk in the writings of the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an. Man cannot physically hear God's words therefore any claims of having heard God's words are incorrect. God does not contradict himself, it is man's claims of having heard God's instructions physically that is contradictory. Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were "messengers of God" whose mind interpreted their spirit's interaction with the Spirit of God according to their conditioning in that time period. Subsequent messenger was Muhammad...but since Allah's wishes cannot be restricted, we will have other messengers. Peace.

i think im going to walk around in a circle again.

by your own understanding you would want religion to take progress and knowledge into account, a couple thousand years of developing has changed our understanding of the universe.

and yet you have to understand that give it a couple hundred years and you wont recognise the place. ours is by no means a complete understanding.


but you would have a hard time thinking it was not.

to think there was anything other than flesh and bone is like disregarding the whole point of the thing... probably.

Do you even know the basis of the muslim's belief in Islam? If you don't, then why are you even trying to tell muslims what and how to believe?

You're talking about claims and proofs and at the same time you make all these claims without actually providing any proof for your own claims.

format_quote Originally Posted by kkawohl1

The DNA within us controls our spirituality and is tied to this force, it is converted to spiritual energy when we die and added to the progressive and accumulative energy that is used to create other forces within the universe.

Ok, I know a Star Wars reference when I see it.

Faith in a declaration claiming a revelation isn't exactly proof. It may very well be true but there can never be physical proof because it is a supernatural interaction between man's spirit and the spirit of God/Allah. No one can see man's spirit, touch it, photograph it; it is supernatural. No man can physically hear the supernatural. If the spirit hears it, it must still be translated by a preconditioned mind which is like a 2 year old child translating his father's wishes.

Spiritual energy is expended from the body at death; it is transmitted from the life form and received by another, the spiritual existence. There is proof that the life that has existed is no longer there, but there is no proof where this energy has gone. In the same way, there can never be proof of a spiritual interaction; so all faith is belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another. All religions and religious beliefs were thereby formed. The declarant who has had a true spiritual interaction does not need faith in God; he knows that God, the spiritual existence is a reality.

Any physical action required by Allah/God is a fallacy. God is spirit and has never meddled in the physical affairs of mankind; it would be contrary to his own laws of nature.

Proof for what? No one is presenting something to you asking you to believe it. We are muslims and the Quran is our book of guidance. The one making claims here is you so if anything the burden of proof is on you. Is there any reason why we should accept your claims?

format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk

Do you even know the basis of the muslim's belief in Islam? If you don't, then why are you even trying to tell muslims what and how to believe?

You're talking about claims and proofs and at the same time you make all these claims without actually providing any proof for your own claims.

Ok, I know a Star Wars reference when I see it.

Most religions have more interesting science fiction hallucinations than Star Wars.

IMHO, all religions need to bring their beliefs into the 21st Century. Anyone can believe whatever they wish and as long as a religion abides by and promotes peace, love and compassion, they are all equally valid.

Do I even know the basis of the Muslim's belief in Islam?

I know that Mohammad was persecuted much in the same way Jesus was persecuted, both suffered for their religious beliefs. What makes their situations so unique is that they both lived devoted to the same God, the God of Moses, and Abraham. Mohammad claimed to have been brought to heaven by the Angel Gabriel; in heaven he reportedly saw Abraham, and Jesus. Mohammad held Jesus as a much-respected prophet of God. When Mohammad began preaching Jews persecuted him for his strong belief in Jesus and his teachings. Mohammad repeatedly was prosecuted for his faith in God and his backing of Jesus.

Mohammad’s’ last public sermon decried that Muslims, and followers of all religions with the belief in the one true God, should live in brotherhood and tolerance. Soon after this sermon Mohammad passed on. So what has happened to this message? Have the politically driven Islamic leaders of today hijacked and *******ized a religion, and its religious decree, meant to preserve peace and harmony? How can Mohammad have preached so much about tolerance yet radical Muslim leaders of today spout nothing but hate and hate filled rhetoric?

If you read about Mohammad’s teachings you will see that he was disgusted in issues that involved persecution, or discrimination based on religion. Conversely, you have some Muslim leaders around the world crying out that Jews should be destroyed, or Christians should be obliterated.

Don’t most Muslims remember that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are all considered faiths of the book ? Don’t they see how similar our beliefs are? Have they forgotten how hallowed Mohammad held Jesus and his teachings? How can these Radical Islamic individuals spout so much hatred in the name of Islam when it is so contradictory to its belief base? I ask you now, who is the real enemy of Islam, is it the brothers and sisters of believers or is it the Imams, and Islamic Presidents, who use Islam as a sword when it cuts to their needs?

I love Muslims and their beliefs; I despise the leaders who hi-jack this religion to further their own needs and desires. It’s time the Muslim populations take a look at the real teachings of Islam and then ask themselves, who is the real enemy of Mohammad’s’ teachings?

format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk

Proof for what? No one is presenting something to you asking you to believe it. We are muslims and the Quran is our book of guidance. The one making claims here is you so if anything the burden of proof is on you. Is there any reason why we should accept your claims?

Can our subconscious, our spirit interact with a spiritual existence or is this just our imagination going haywire? Please consider the following.

In 1956, when I was fifteen years old, I had pneumonia and thought I was dying. My father took me to a doctor who gave me a penicillin injection and recommended immediate hospitalization. We had no medical insurance or money, so my father took me home to recuperate. I remember the drive home vividly. Every breath was painful and my chest felt as though a great weight was upon it. I watched cars and trucks drive by and wondered how people could make long-term plans when life was so unpredictable.

Several nights later, it felt as if my spirit left my body and it experienced being in a place with a gathering of souls or spirits. I sensed great peace, tranquility and ecstasy, a rapture that was beyond a person's imagination. I felt as if I was a part of ALL, a part of God. I was mentally communicating and in sync with everyone. There were some of my deceased acquaintances and relatives and many of the prophets of the bible and historical people I had read about were also there. There was no dominant force, no forceful leader. I somehow knew who everyone was. Every thought interacted with the whole community. I had no questions; it seemed as if everything was revealed and crystal clear. I saw the universe stretched out with spirits engaged in mental interactions like master craftsmen contemplating the creation of a new frontier.

When I told my father who was a preacher of the Lutheran Faith about my experience he dismissed it abruptly and told me that this "supreme spirit," this God that my spirit had witnessed, was not the God of the bible and he told me to pray for my salvation. We never talked about it afterwards.

Since that time I never really gave it much thought until the New York World Trade Center tragedy on 9-11-01. I went into deep meditation. I wanted to find an answer to how some misguided individuals could believe that their actions of killing other people would be rewarded with their soul's eternal life with God.

I then had a couple of experiences similar to the one I had at age fifteen of my spirit communicating with the "ultimate spirit." (God, Allah or whatever one desires to call him/her/it) My spiritual experiences seemed to last throughout the entire night. My spirit observed the entire history and the evolution of the universe and our varying perceptions of God, as if in a fast-forward film.

The experiences I encountered after the 9-11 tragedy helped me come to the following conclusions:
1. In this Age of Technology, our 21st Century, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that are a contributing cause toward terrorism, killings and wars between nations.
2. Belief in a deity who causes catastrophes, punishes people and created the universe out of nothingness as if by magic was brought about by passed-on stories and superstitions. These thought processes would need to be reassessed and brought up to date.
3. Open-minded people must use common sense to determine whether this so-called deity, our God, was incorrectly perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone era.

Some will say that my personal experience of oneness with a supreme spirit is nothing but a dream or a vivid imagination. It doesn't matter whether you accept or totally reject my story. What does matter is that we evolve to a point whereby we can encourage open-minded people to offer feedback on how our religious beliefs can be brought into the 21st century.

Christianity and Judaism were never revealed by God,

there is no such claim in the books of the Jews and Christians either, (Neither the Bible nor the Jewish Torah) make any such claim,

these religions are unfortunately concocted.