So I have been reading the Quran in search for answers and found none. I found it an extremely dull book, half of it is Allah praising himself making it seem like he has some serious self-esteem issues. The other half is filled with ancient myths, banal repetition, and contradictions cleverly refuted by "abrogation". "But read it in Arabic and you will instantly see the beauty and the message of the Quran!" proclaim the apologists. Well, I don't speak Arabic so tough luck for me I guess? Why is God monolingual?
Then there are those who claim the Quran itself is a "linguistic miracle". This is of course completely made up and no professional linguist holds this belief. Others bring up the "scientific miracles of the Quran". This absurd claim turns the scientific method completely ass backwards. All of these so called miracles can also easily be explained simply as being the result of common knowledge, copy-pasted from the Greeks or the Bible, and most importantly simply being so vague as to requiring massive amounts of confirmation bias to see them as any sort of miracle or foreknowledge.
Then comes perhaps the most entertaining of all: that Quran contains some sort of mathematical patterns as proof of it's divnity. This of course is in no way an argument for the divnity of anything. You could find dozens of similar numerical patterns from any long enough text, and it has been done for such works as the Bible or Moby Dick. Not only that, but many of these claims have proven to be fabrications. For example when claiming the number of daysmentioned 365 times (Islam doesn't even use the Georgian calendar so this was an absurd claim to begin with), the word day in plural form has been emitted from the word count.
The Quran has also a nice little moving goalpost argument repeated several times: "produce a sura like it". This is of course true, no matter how much you try you will never produce a sura like those in the Quran. Just as you will never produce a poem like those of Pablo Neruda, or a play like those of Henrik Ibsen. No matter how hard you try, it will never be exactly like the Quran, Neruda, or Ibsen. Why would God use such faulty logic? There is also no consensus amongst secular scholars whether Mohammad really was illiterate or not. And even if he was, he was not the one who complied the Quran. Thus how educated he was does not matter.
Did Mohammad peace and blessings of Allah be upon him recite a linguistically refined Quran or set up a working political system? Maybe (although even this has been questioned) but this is not sufficent evidence for being the messenger of God for humanity. There have been several humans with extraordinary abilities (e.g. Solomon Shereshevsky) and several civilizations that rose in unexplainable conditions (e.g. Tiwanaku) but this is hardly proof of divinity. And when it comes to the Quran's preservation, even this has been questioned by several sources and historians. Even if we concede this point, the Quran is by no means the longest preserved text in history.
I don't mean to be condesceding, these are my sincere experiences with this and would like to hear what makes you feel certain that the Quran is God's divine revelation.
Re: Why do you believe the Quran is divine revelation?
format_quote Originally Posted by Risk
So I have been reading the Quran in search for answers and found none.
What kind of answers are you in search for?
The Qur'an was revealed upon Prophet Muhammad (sallalalhu 'alayhe wa sallam) who was an illiterate, he could not read or write. The Qur'an is a confirmation of the message that came before.. i.e. Gospel given to Jesus, Torah given to Moses. The message being for mankind to worship their Creator alone, without associating any partners (son, daughter, etc.) with their Creator.
Re: Why do you believe the Quran is divine revelation?
Welcome to the forum .
Straight to questions...
A lot of questions.. and it seems that you have given it some thought, especially with the comments cutting across the many areas of debates.. but what I see is the 'point of view' you are coming from.It appears that you have taken it with a view to disprove. So disprove you will. It is not an open concept to learn. A half filled gkass will be half empty to some and half full to the others.
For now I'll just say that you seeking of knowledge is very tainted if you say that half of the Quran is Allah praising Himself. Simple question. We can't see Him. We can hear Him etc.. so how do we know Him? Via His description of Himself. That's how we come to know of His Attributes. And these attributes are not random as you say but specifically describes Him in relation to the nature of the verses revealed. Hence we get His 99 names. Personally I think it is brilliant the way it is done. Obviously you find it otherwise..
On the 365 days.. the time it takes for the earth to complete its orbit and the calendar are 2 different things. And I see the beauty of it being that nothing is fixed. The slight changes every year in the celebrations means that over time, we get to celebrate our festivities in all seasons. Being fixed in the calendar, those you live in temperate regions will always fast either long hours or short hours. With the changes in the lunar calendar, you will get a spread and in the long run, fair for all.
That is for now..
Wishing you a great stay.
As long as my heart does beat, I shall live, not lie
For when my heart does stop its beat, with truth, I die.
Re: Why do you believe the Quran is divine revelation?
It seems you went in to critic it from the get go without actually understanding the underlying message. All your argument are typical atheist apologetic arguments - Cant read the Quran in Arabic check, "Scientific miracles" check copy and paste of "bible and Greek knowledge check. Nothing to do with the philosophical and real questions and answers the Quran poses or what God is calling to.
The proofs of God are everywhere - From life itself, to its whole creation, from the prophets to the Kings - It all points to one divine being. Anything else is pure conjuncture - unless you have a better answer?
The Quran is the word of God because there isnt anything like it on the planet. Pure divine speech. Any thing else doesn't compare.
Last edited by Zafran; 03-29-2016 at 02:15 AM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Re: Why do you believe the Quran is divine revelation?
Your post is nothing but an attempt of self admiration of your ignorance. You should know that Quran is the book of hidaya (guidance). If you want to remain a lawless person like a wild animal then you'll not be benefited by Quran. Read the opening verses of the Quran. It's the introduction-page of the book.
Re: Why do you believe the Quran is divine revelation?
format_quote Originally Posted by aamuslim
The Qur'an was revealed upon Prophet Muhammad (sallalalhu 'alayhe wa sallam) who was an illiterate,
This proves exactly nothing.
format_quote Originally Posted by greenhill
but what I see is the 'point of view' you are coming from.It appears that you have taken it with a view to disprove. So disprove you will. It is not an open concept to learn. A half filled gkass will be half empty to some and half full to the others.
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
It seems you went in to critic it from the get go without actually understanding the underlying message.
This is of course the standard answer I get. But it is completely untrue. If you manage to bring me evidence that Quran is Go'd divine revelation I would be more than happy to accept Islam straight away. It's just that I haven't found any of it yet, which is why I made this thread to hear your thoughts on the Qurans divinity.
format_quote Originally Posted by greenhill
so how do we know Him?
"I am God, your creator and the Master of the universe" at the start of the book should have gotten the point across.
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
The proofs of God are everywhere - From life itself, to its whole creation, from the prophets to the Kings - It all points to one divine being. Anything else is pure conjuncture - unless you have a better answer?
Care to elaborate?
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
The Quran is the word of God because there isnt anything like it on the planet. Pure divine speech. Any thing else doesn't compare.
I've already refuted this.
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
Your post is nothing but an attempt of self admiration of your ignorance. You should know that Quran is the book of hidaya (guidance). If you want to remain a lawless person like a wild animal then you'll not be benefited by Quran. Read the opening verses of the Quran. It's the introduction-page of the book.
The only thing I "want" is evidence that the Quran is divine. Otherwise I won't accept it.
Re: Why do you believe the Quran is divine revelation?
It is not going to be easy to do all that you have requested, if it were, there would not be such a great debate.
The points are in the subtleness of it all. How all the pieces fit. If it didn't, it is only as a result of our lack of understanding. Then we have to seek the answer. If the answer is given and our workings produces a different answer, surely you go back to the workings rather than stay on track and question the answer.
I suggest you watch Jeffrey Lang's "Purpose of Life" on YouTube. It's an hour and a half short.
Then you will begin to see the scope of what I mean. You say the Quran is boring. You have hardly scratched the surface because your mind, like mine at the beginning and at times still becomes, too overwhelmed by the words, almost Yoda like, old English style, of an old Arabic language. It is heavy going. Shakespeare. That is boring (to some who can't understand hence appreciate).
So, if you want sonething to think about, go watch that YouTube video. Then I'd be happy to engage. If not we will be wasting hours typing away... words are faster spoken and heard than written (typed in this case) and read.
Glad to read that if you could be convinced you would convert.
Re: Why do you believe the Quran is divine revelation?
You say
format_quote Originally Posted by Risk
The only thing I "want" is evidence that the Quran is divine. Otherwise I won't accept it.
format_quote Originally Posted by Risk
Do you have any proof this is God?
Your bar of evidence.
format_quote Originally Posted by Risk
"I am God, your creator and the Master of the universe" at the start of the book should have gotten the point across.
Its this that I find Odd - When the entire Quran is full of this and yet you somehow missed all of it???? seriously?? This is the Core message of the Quran unless you were reading a different book. If this is your bar of evidence the Quran beats it a country mile.
format_quote Originally Posted by Risk
And you haven't refuted any of them.
No need to - as your bar evidence as been met.
format_quote Originally Posted by Risk
I've already refuted this.
what exactly? as your post of evidence as been met, Unless your going to change the post for the sake of arguing.
Last edited by Zafran; 03-30-2016 at 11:32 PM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Re: Why do you believe the Quran is divine revelation?
format_quote Originally Posted by Risk
The only thing I "want" is evidence that the Quran is divine. Otherwise I won't accept it.
What is "divine" in your understanding? Created by God? The Universe and therefore every part of it were created by God. Even your posts, which required creation of you, which in turn required creation of your parents and so on including The Big Bang
What makes Quran so special? It's mission and role for humanity. The history is a good evidence i hope.
Sounds similar to atheistic point of view?
But atheistic approach focusing only on description of details and loosing the reasons. Like, content of your posts may be completely determined by the state of your body and computer without acknowledging your personality.
Religion is like a language and organizer for one's feelings about reasons behind what is obvious (unseen).
So, instead of trying to prove/disprove Quran, try to find common concepts and values, to be able to discuss your feelings with others, but first of all to better understand yourself. In Sha Allah ☺
Re: Why do you believe the Quran is divine revelation?
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
You want proof the Quran is a devine revelation?
Sorry mate I don't get what you're saying.
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Its this that I find Odd - When the entire Quran is full of this and yet you somehow missed all of it???? seriously?? This is the Core message of the Quran unless you were reading a different book. If this is your bar of evidence the Quran beats it a country mile.
Lol, please read the post to which I was responding.
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
No need to - as your bar evidence as been met.
it's ok if you don't know the answer.
format_quote Originally Posted by Physicist
What is "divine" in your understanding? Created by God? The Universe and therefore every part of it were created by God. Even your posts, which required creation of you, which in turn required creation of your parents and so on including The Big Bang
What makes Quran so special? It's mission and role for humanity. The history is a good evidence i hope.
Sounds similar to atheistic point of view?
But atheistic approach focusing only on description of details and loosing the reasons. Like, content of your posts may be completely determined by the state of your body and computer without acknowledging your personality.
Religion is like a language and organizer for one's feelings about reasons behind what is obvious (unseen).
So, instead of trying to prove/disprove Quran, try to find common concepts and values, to be able to discuss your feelings with others, but first of all to better understand yourself. In Sha Allah ☺
I'm more interested in hearing why Islam rather than religion or a deity in general is the truth. I also think discussing the merits of religion is a completely different discussion. THe only thing I'm asking for is proof taht the Quran is God's word. If you manage to convince me that a God exists, I will accept Deissm, if you convince me that the Quran is God's divine revelation, I will accept God and Islam.
Re: Why do you believe the Quran is divine revelation?
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
You want proof the Quran is a devine revelation?
Unfortunately your almost specifically mentioned in the Quran..
Those people that would require proofs and miracles and even for God to turn up himself before they believe..
Really really badly paraphrased.
Unfortunately the error is in your question, devine revelation rather than devine..
Unfortunately even athiests realise that the world works on averting tragedies rather than causing miracles.
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
You say
Your bar of evidence.
Its this that I find Odd - When the entire Quran is full of this and yet you somehow missed all of it???? seriously?? This is the Core message of the Quran unless you were reading a different book. If this is your bar of evidence the Quran beats it a country mile.
No need to - as your bar evidence as been met.
what exactly? as your post of evidence as been met, Unless your going to change the post for the sake of arguing.
format_quote Originally Posted by Kiro
I'm not here to convince you or anything but how willing are you to be convinced?
Willing if I get evidence. I think there is beauty in Islam's moral code for sure. But that is not proof of anything.
Re: Why do you believe the Quran is divine revelation?
format_quote Originally Posted by Risk
This proves exactly nothing..
Right, you sound convinced if you were to go anywhere in the world and find an illiterate person you would come up with a similar book? I don't think so, I'm not convinced.
format_quote Originally Posted by Risk
I'm more interested in hearing why Islam rather than religion or a deity in general is the truth. I also think discussing the merits of religion is a completely different discussion. THe only thing I'm asking for is proof taht the Quran is God's word. If you manage to convince me that a God exists, I will accept Deissm, if you convince me that the Quran is God's divine revelation, I will accept God and Islam.
When you buy a product, you receive a product manual along with it. The Creator of the heavens and the earth did not send us here without a manual. Now in real life, some people will read the product manual and some dont even read the product manual and throw it away. Those who read it, some like reading it and are pleased with the manual, some are not pleased with it and throw it away. The same with the Qur'an, when Allah reveals a book, a split occurs within society - those who believe it with certainty and those who do not believe.
None of us can make another person believe, this person who was an atheist previously is convinced that God exists (islamicboard.com/discover-islam/134332111-obstacles-conversion.html). For you, look around only in your room and name a single thing that is in your room there without someone creating it.
Re: Why do you believe the Quran is divine revelation?
The beautiful Qur'an. I put here a website for you to look at the beautiful miracles in the Qur'an, things that humans could not understand before, are starting to make sense right now. (the miracles of the Quran . com)
He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? ( Surat az-Zumar, 5)
And the Sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. And We have decreed set phases for the Moon, until it ends up looking like an old palm spathe. It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon nor for the night to outstrip the day; each one is swimming in a sphere. (Surah Ya Sin, 38-40)
Until the 16th century it was thought that the Earth was the center of the universe. But the Qur'an, revealed to our beloved Prophet around 610 had many scientific miracles explained before they were discovered.
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