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Fight only those who fight you

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    Fight only those who fight you (OP)


    Firstly, in Islam, we only ever fight (and as a last resort) to ultimately obtain peace. I think that’s the obvious argument that everyone makes.
    That is what a Muslim said on a thread called "Saying "Islām Is A Religion of Peace"...?"


    I wasn't allowed to respond to it because I'm not a Muslim so I had to open this thread.

    Anti muslim apologists are quick to bring up Quran 9:29 to defeat that line of thinking.

    SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

    Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

    I am not that quick to make cheap accusations, I like to make my own little research before saying anything.
    I have to admit, the (anti) muslim apologists are not that wrong after all.

    I missed the word in parenthesis in the original post. At that time the Forum didn't give me the option to edit the text.
    Last edited by Eddy; 08-13-2020 at 04:19 AM. Reason: missing word

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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

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    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    I ask questions just to satisfy my curiosity.
    Christianity and Islam have a lot of holes in their scriptures and I want to make sure I'm getting the facts right.
    Does that bother you?
    I'm not here to promote my way of seeing things, I just want to make sure I understand the way you see things.
    Too complicated for you?
    It does not bother me when you ask questions and I do understand that you see things differently because you are not a Muslim. But it does bother me, when you don't answer the questions we ask ( simply ignore our questions), pick and choose what you want to discuss. This is not how an honest discussion is carried out. May be read previous posts and see if you would like to answer the questions I have asked.
    Last edited by 'Abdullah; 08-17-2020 at 03:18 PM.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Sometimes I read this kind of stuff and think, wait a minute, is he saying what I think he is saying?
    Didn't we have a group of Muslims take over parts of Syria and Iraq by force and claimed to be an Islamic State and had their own Caliph as the leader.
    How is that different from option #3
    They followed the rules from the text you provided, didn't they?
    As a Muslim what would you say they did wrong and what did disqualified them as authentic Muslims?
    First thing you should appreciate is that I don't sugarcoat things, I try my best to represent the facts as they are whether one likes it or does not.
    Second, I have previously mentioned that third option ( taking power by force) is contrary to sharee’ah.
    Third, if someone does take power (meaning becomes Caliph) by force then three conditions mentioned in my previous posts should be met. None of the conditions are met when ISIS took over some parts of Iraq and Syria. ISIS created chaos, instead of providing safety to Muslims - starting killing them. ISIS killed innocent citizen, children, women, old and helpless people, and pretty much violated all the laws of war mentioned in Shariah. To understand some of the rules Shariah have during war, please read my post below:
    Saying "Islām Is A Religion of Peace"...?
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    Perhaps, you can look into Saudi Arabia and see how they have controlled crimes by implementing partial sharia law when it comes to punishing criminals by beheading them and cutting their hands. There is no human right for those who spread corruption in the society and by doing so we set an example for others to think 100 times before even thinking to rape or kill a human being.
    That is based solely on your lack of information and Saudi Arabia's filter of information that only allows what they want out.
    Did you know about all the sexual assaults and harassment that happens every year in Saudi Arabia by the Holy Mosque during Hajj' in Mecca?
    There are now hundreds of women coming forward and denouncing the problem.
    Shariah over there doesn't seem to intimidate anybody, does it?

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah
    unlike the military conquest of other religions like Hinduism and Christianity, the Islamic conquerors did not force the conquered people to convert to Islam.
    Wow, really?
    Quran 9:29
    "Fight those who do not believe in Allah"
    This is not about politics or economics, it is strictly about religion.If someone is fighting you because you don't believe in their religion is that not a clear attempt to force you into their religion?
    You can bring any kind of context but nothing changes the intention.

    Quran 9:29 (continues)
    [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
    Here there is an option to being killed and that is to pay the jizyah.
    So the options are, become a Muslim, pay the jyzyah or die.
    So if you cannot afford the jizyah and don't want to die you're being forced into Islam, isn't that so?

    I responded to many of your questions but the forum doesn't always accepts my responses and once they don't like my replies I get the message and don't force the issue.

    Tn terms of the overall response to my main topic I already have a very informed opinion thanks to all the responses.I don't find it appropriate to share it because as I said before I'm not here to promote my own views I'm here to get information from people who know Islam a lot better than me.
    Last edited by Eddy; 08-19-2020 at 05:55 PM. Reason: formatting errors
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    So the options are, become a Muslim, pay the jyzyah or die.
    So if you cannot afford the jizyah and don't want to die you're being forced into Islam, isn't that so?
    Abu Yousuf exempted the poor, sick, crippled, the insane, monks, the blind, and the very old people from paying Jizya. His reasoning was this Hadith: “Whoever oppresses a non-Muslim subject or taxes him beyond his capacity, then I shall be the opposite party to him in the litigation.” {See Kitab al-Kharaj, pp. 69-72.)

    Prophet Muhammad was reported to have said,
    “He who unfairly treats a non-Muslim who keeps a peace treaty with Muslims, or undermines his rights, or burdens him beyond his capacity, or takes something from him without his consent; then I am his opponent on the Day of Judgment” (Abu Dawud and Al-Bayhaqi).

    Not only was this the norm of the Prophet on the issue, but the Rightly Guided Caliphs also practiced His footsteps.

    Abu Bakr as-Siddiq, the First Caliph, wrote to the people of Najran:
    'In the Name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful. This is the written statement of God's slave Abu Bakr, the successor of Muhammad, the Prophet and Messenger of God. He affirms for you the rights of a protected neighbor, in yourselves, your lands, your religious community, your wealth, retainers, and servants, those of you who are present or abroad, your bishops and monks, and monasteries, and all that you own, be it great or small. You shall not be deprived of any of it, and shall have full control over it.'

    Gustav Le Bon affirmed this historical fact:

    "The Arabs could have easily been blinded by their first conquests, and committed the injustices that are usually committed by conquerors. They could have mistreated their defeated opponents or forced them to embrace their religion, which they wished to spread all over the world. But the Arabs avoided that. The early caliphs, who had a political genius that was rare in proponents of new religion, realized that religions and systems are not imposed by force. So they treated the people of Syria, Egypt, Spain, and every country they took over with great kindness, as we have seen. They left their laws, regulations, and beliefs intact and only imposed on them the jizya, which was paltry when compared to what they had been paying in taxes previously, in exchange for maintaining their security. The truth is that nations had never known conquerors more tolerant than the Muslims, or a religion more tolerant than Islam." (Lebon, G, The Civilization Of The Arabs, p. 605)

    Reinhart Dozy, the Dutch historian, wrote:
    "The Berbers did not have a sacred book. So, It clearly follows that the tolerance was going to a great extent possible, maybe, further than Muhammad had wanted.
    In addition the Muslim domination was a relief and a blessing, especially for Christians. Christians in the East belonged mostly to sects that the Officials of Constantinople oppressed and persecuted while Islam, naturally, gave them full freedom to understand Christianity as they saw fit and gave equal protection to all old and new sects.
    If we add that the heavy taxes they had to pay to the Roman emperor were not demanded by the new government and that the capitation tax that was posed, was moderate; it is not surprising that they gave much preference to the domination of Muslims over that of the Romans and that they vigorously support the Arabs in their conquests far from working against them."
    https://islamic-life-forum.blogspot....f-muslims.html

    Dhimmis were required to pay Jizya but were exempt from Zakat [charity tax] which Muslims are required to pay [2.5% of their savings, each year] as well as from military service. However, if Dhimmis agreed to serve in the armed forces, they were not required to pay Jizya, since Jizya was only taken from able-bodied men who could serve in the military.

    Muslims also returned Jizya when they were unable to protect non-Muslims.

    Khalid bin Walid returned all the taxes collected to Christians of Homs when he was not able to repel the attack of the Christian Byzantine Emperor Heraclous on Homs. He said to them :
    “We accepted (the Jizyah) as a token of your good will and in return for defending you, but (in this), we have failed (you.)”
    {See Abd al-Rahman Azzam’s “The Eternal Message of Muhammad” ; ‘Mabsut, Vol. 10, pp. 78-79; Fath al-Qadir, Vol. 4; and A. Rahman I. Doi’s “Non-Muslims Under Shariah Law.”}
    Saladin also returned the Jizya when he was compelled to withdraw from Syria.
    {See A. Rahman I. Doi’s “Non-Muslims Under Shariah Law.”)
    https://islamic-life-forum.blogspot....perpetual.html
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    That is based solely on your lack of information and Saudi Arabia's filter of information that only allows what they want out.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Did you know about all the sexual assaults and harassment that happens every year in Saudi Arabia by the Holy Mosque during Hajj' in Mecca?
    There are now hundreds of women coming forward and denouncing the problem.
    Shariah over there doesn't seem to intimidate anybody, does it?

    Do you have any proof to believe in this non-sense? I lived in Mecca for a while and have been there during hajj as well, did not see anything like which you are claiming. If source of your information is google search and listening to Islamophobics then its obvious that you are looking for the information to attack Islam only and does not matter to you whether that information is right or wrong. In future, please quote source of your information to make a valid point.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Wow, really?
    Quran 9:29
    "Fight those who do not believe in Allah"
    This is not about politics or economics, it is strictly about religion.If someone is fighting you because you don't believe in their religion is that not a clear attempt to force you into their religion?
    You can bring any kind of context but nothing changes the intention.

    Quran 9:29 (continues)
    [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
    Here there is an option to being killed and that is to pay the jizyah.
    So the options are, become a Muslim, pay the jyzyah or die.
    So if you cannot afford the jizyah and don't want to die you're being forced into Islam, isn't that so?

    I responded to many of your questions but the forum doesn't always accepts my responses and once they don't like my replies I get the message and don't force the issue.

    Tn terms of the overall response to my main topic I already have a very informed opinion thanks to all the responses.I don't find it appropriate to share it because as I said before I'm not here to promote my own views I'm here to get information from people who know Islam a lot better than me.
    Others have already answered to your question about Jizya, so I would not repeat the same.
    I don't believe any one would mind you answering following questions ( same which I asked before):
    1. In a democratic society, it is okay to have same sex marriage. It is okay to have sex with mutual consent. It is okay to legalize drugs such as marijuana. It is okay to legalize prostitution as long as majority votes for these issues. And in many countries or states; we see that these things have been legalized. I want to know what is your take on that? Do you consider these parts of your own moral values as well since majority agrees with it or would you rather differ? If you do differ, then you are no accepting the democratic process, are you?
    2. If Islamic countries violate basic International humanitarian laws by cutting hands for stealing and stoning to death for adulatory etc., would you advocate for UNO and Western countries to attack such countries and have them comply with International Human rights? Would you also agree that sanctions should be imposed on such countries to comply them by force?

    Your answers does not need to be lengthy, just give us what your opinion is in simple Yes or No with may be some explanation in few sentences. These are the questions I have been asking since the beginning of this thread and you did not see any relevance of these questions with the topic in hand. I hope you can now see that these are not irrelevant questions.
    Last edited by 'Abdullah; 08-19-2020 at 11:18 PM.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    Do you have any proof to believe in this non-sense? I lived in Mecca for a while and have been there during hajj as well, did not see anything like which you are claiming.
    These are all Muslim women coming forward and you know they can get in a lot of trouble by doing so.
    Why should I believe your experience as a man when Muslim women are telling us what's happening?
    Are you in total denial?
    What proof do you want from me?
    These are Muslim women saying it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNpW-HYL_c8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SljmbQKJMXU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Shnl6fIII
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iF-cETvfCg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w068-pEs4wU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhBa3b3Eh2s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVmk2_nZss
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfNQalkT3Uc

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    I don't believe any one would mind you answering following questions ( same which I asked before):
    Well, you're wrong, the Forum filters all my posts and some are not approved. That's just the way it is.

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    In a democratic society, it is okay to have same sex marriage. It is okay to have sex with mutual consent. It is okay to legalize drugs such as marijuana. It is okay to legalize prostitution as long as majority votes for these issues.
    The answer is yes to all those questions.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    These are all Muslim women coming forward and you know they can get in a lot of trouble by doing so.
    Why should I believe your experience as a man when Muslim women are telling us what's happening?
    Are you in total denial?
    What proof do you want from me?
    These are Muslim women saying it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNpW-HYL_c8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SljmbQKJMXU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Shnl6fIII
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iF-cETvfCg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w068-pEs4wU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhBa3b3Eh2s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVmk2_nZss
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfNQalkT3Uc
    Do you know that there are cameras recording everything in the Kabba in Mecca. Millions of people watch this live and it’s absurd that you threw in some YouTube videos to support your claim. The women in these videos are not even wearing hijab, music is being played in videos in the back ground which tell me that it’s not from Muslims but in facts from those who hate Islam and will go to any extreme measure to propagate against Islam. Who knows if these women are Muslim or not, they may be Christians and being paid to lie.
    I can share millions of YouTube videos where Muslim women say that their journey and experience of hajj was the best and most memorable one in their life. Few fake videos, compared to millions of women stating otherwise shows the picture you probably don’t want to see. My advice is that come to Islam with an open mind and with no bias. Read the Quran at your own, instead of picking a verse and listening to views of those who hate the truth. It’s a matter of our salvation and you should not take this lightly.

    Second, women can’t go to hajj without a mahram ( a male to ensure her safety) & usually they go for hajj in groups. It’s impossible for such a thing to happen during hajj.

    Third, there is security appointed almost at every 50-100 feet to ensure proper traffic flow and to avoid any incidents like these.

    Okay thanks for the answers to my other questions. So you are basically saying that you don’t have an opinion of your own and your values and opinions are determined by what a majority says in your society? You are okay with same sex marriage because your democratic society has made it lawful? Would you be okay with your wife having sexual with someone else with consent - after all its legal in many western societies? What type of man you will be to tolerate this? It’s not an attack on you, I am just trying to understand how can one have such low morals?
    If UN & USA can use force to implement international human rights, why then Muslims not make use of Jihad to implement Islamic values?
    Last edited by 'Abdullah; 08-20-2020 at 04:57 AM.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    Who knows if these women are Muslim or not, they may be Christians and being paid to lie.
    They make a lot more sense than you. They suffered the assaults themselves. You are just an apologist. You deny it even when you were not there. How do you know they're lying?
    Why should I believe you and not them?
    They are not criticizing Islam, they are criticizing Muslim men who take advantage of certain situations because no Muslim woman in her right mind is going to go to the authorities and then end up being accused of adultery.
    It is Saudi Arabia, those things happen to women, you know?


    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    So you are basically saying that you don’t have an opinion of your own and your values and opinions are determined by what a majority says in your society?
    Stop being a hypocrite and building straw man fallacies.
    You didn't ask for my opinion, didn't you?
    Let's see again:
    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    In a democratic society, it is okay to have same sex marriage. It is okay to have sex with mutual consent. It is okay to legalize drugs such as marijuana. It is okay to legalize prostitution as long as majority votes for these issues
    My answer was yes to all those questions but I never said I personally approve or not.
    It is a fact that those things are currently legal in many democratic countries but not in all of them and not all people in democratic countries approve them.
    You have proven over and over that your agenda is to accuse me of things I never said and then pile up the criticism over your false assumptions.
    I'm too good to fall for those childish games.

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    Do you consider these parts of your own moral values as well since majority agrees with it or would you rather differ? If you do differ, then you are no accepting the democratic process, are you?
    You are clueless, absolutely clueless.
    Not agreeing with the majority doesn't mean you reject the democratic way.
    Today the majority might think that the Muslim immigration is beneficial for Europe but tomorrow the same democratic method and the same people might change their mind and not approve it.
    You have a poor understanding of "democracy".
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    They make a lot more sense than you. They suffered the assaults themselves. You are just an apologist. You deny it even when you were not there. How do you know they're lying?
    Why should I believe you and not them?
    They are not criticizing Islam, they are criticizing Muslim men who take advantage of certain situations because no Muslim woman in her right mind is going to go to the authorities and then end up being accused of adultery.
    It is Saudi Arabia, those things happen to women, you know?
    You can believe whatever you want to believe in, it is clear that your opinion is biased and based on total ignorance. I gave my reason in my previous post that why these claims have no basis but of course you want to just accuse with no proof.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post

    Stop being a hypocrite and building straw man fallacies.
    You didn't ask for my opinion, didn't you?
    Let's see again:

    My answer was yes to all those questions but I never said I personally approve or not.
    It is a fact that those things are currently legal in many democratic countries but not in all of them and not all people in democratic countries approve them.
    You have proven over and over that your agenda is to accuse me of things I never said and then pile up the criticism over your false assumptions.
    I'm too good to fall for those childish games.


    Let's see what my question was?
    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    I don't believe any one would mind you answering following questions ( same which I asked before):
    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    1. In a democratic society, it is okay to have same sex marriage. It is okay to have sex with mutual consent. It is okay to legalize drugs such as marijuana. It is okay to legalize prostitution as long as majority votes for these issues. And in many countries or states; we see that these things have been legalized. I want to know what is your take on that? Do you consider these parts of your own moral values as well since majority agrees with it or would you rather differ? If you do differ, then you are no accepting the democratic process, are you?
    2. If Islamic countries violate basic International humanitarian laws by cutting hands for stealing and stoning to death for adulatory etc., would you advocate for UNO and Western countries to attack such countries and have them comply with International Human rights? Would you also agree that sanctions should be imposed on such countries to comply them by force?

    Your answers does not need to be lengthy, just give us what your opinion is in simple Yes or No with may be some explanation in few sentences. These are the questions I have been asking since the beginning of this thread and you did not see any relevance of these questions with the topic in hand. I hope you can now see that these are not irrelevant questions.
    So you can see that you copy and pasting half of my question and left the remaining half, which was asking you if you differ from them. Your simple answer was " Yes" so that means you agree with what majority believes & have no moral values of your own. But now you want to back off and want to say that you never said that you personally approve or disapprove these values? That's called straw man fallacy and hypocrisy.

    Anyways let's assume that you don't approve of these majority decisions, then that mean a majority opinion is being enforced on you and you have no other option but to accept it.

    As for the second question, you said that you do agree that UN and USA can enforce humanitarian laws on countries who exercise Shariah ( cutting hands, stoning etc.). And we know that in doing so, the Western forces have killed millions of people in Iraq, Afghanistan and other Muslim countries. On the other hand, you have audacity to ask why should Muslims do Jihad and take Jizya?
    Western forces have no rules for the war where as Muslims follow strict rules during war and don't hurt children, women, old people, those who don't fight against them etc. Muslims have ethics of war where as USA and its allies have no ethics. USA is the one who used nuclear bomb to kill millions in Japan during world war II and should be the one banned to have any nuclear weapons but quite the contrary, its other countries like Iran who are forced not to have nuclear weapons? That's the double standard and hypocrisy of modern world who can launch attacks on Muslim countries with no proof. Same so-called peace makers support the oppression of Palestinians by Israel and Kashmiris in India. They apparently don't see violation of human rights with oppressed one's are Muslims. And don't tell me now that you don't support all that because that is simply a diplomatic answer.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    You are clueless, absolutely clueless.
    Not agreeing with the majority doesn't mean you reject the democratic way.
    Today the majority might think that the Muslim immigration is beneficial for Europe but tomorrow the same democratic method and the same people might change their mind and not approve it.
    You have a poor understanding of "democracy".
    Democracy is simply two wolves and a sheep vote on what's for dinner; whether it makes sense depends on whether you are the wolf or the sheep. If it makes sense to you then guess what you are simple a wolf.
    You response also shows that majority opinion may not always be right and hence can be changed with time to something even worse.
    Anyways, so far you have proved that it is best for me to ignore your posts. I initially thought that may be we can have an honest discussion but it all seems to be a blame game, emotional rants, finger pointing, personal attacks and I don't want to be part of such discussion.
    Good luck & please there is no need to reply back as I am not going to answer your posts/questions.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    I gave my reason in my previous post that why these claims have no basis but of course you want to just accuse with no proof.
    Your claims that there are cameras and that somehow because you were there and never saw nothing is not good enough for me.
    You claimed these people are Christians and are paid to trash Islam.
    That is so ridiculous, these are Muslim women who are not blaming Islam in any way, they are just telling their story and you just want them to shut up. That is really awful, why don't you try to get the facts straight before dismissing them.
    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    Your simple answer was " Yes" so that means you agree with what majority believes & have no moral values of your own. But now you want to back off and want to say that you never said that you personally approve or disapprove these values? That's called straw man fallacy and hypocrisy.
    I dare you to find a quote when I said I personally agree with all those liberals things you named.
    By the way let me school a bit. The western world is majority Christian, would you agree?
    Christians who follow the religion don't agree with abortion, drinking, doing drugs, prostitution and a bunch of other things that western people more on the liberal side do agree.
    So you see you cannot put the whole western world in one bad and assume they are all Christians and that they all prefer democracy and that they all accept all the things you mentioned.
    That is really a poor view of how things happen.
    Personally I get most of my values from Christianity so I don't agree with most of those things you mentioned, but that is just me and I don't speak for the rest of the west.
    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    You response also shows that majority opinion may not always be right and hence can be changed with time to something even worse.
    At least is the majority who decides and not a bunch of fanatics who believe their way is the best way.
    Examples: The Taliban, ISIS, most communists regimes and most Islamic governments.
    In many occasions the people in power are the minority and they oppress the majority.
    That rarely happens on a democratic country.
    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    Democracy is simply two wolves and a sheep vote on what's for dinner; whether it makes sense depends on whether you are the wolf or the sheep. If it makes sense to you then guess what you are simple a wolf.
    So what would be the Islamic position on this?
    No democracy no need to vote, let's get the white sauce and let's shish kebab the sheeps.
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  15. #51
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Personally I get most of my values from Christianity so I don't agree with most of those things you mentioned, but that is just me and I don't speak for the rest of the west.
    So you do not like democracy either. If you remember that is one of the main issue I mentioned with democracy that majority of the people can’t define what is going to be moral values for human beings. Moral values come from our creator and we don’t compromise those based on majority opinion. Supreme power is not people’s decision, it’s Allah and His Divine Law.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    So you do not like democracy either. If you remember that is one of the main issue I mentioned with democracy that majority of the people can’t define what is going to be moral values for human beings. Moral values come from our creator and we don’t compromise those based on majority opinion. Supreme power is not people’s decision, it’s Allah and His Divine Law.
    I love democracy, don't get it twisted. Democracy is the best system created by man.
    Being against abortion or drugs or anything else doesn't make me hate democracy.
    My opinion or anybody's opinion doesn't have to be the ultimate truth.
    I already said I doubt the existence of god so the phrase "Morals come from the creator" is meaningless to me.
    I believe morals were created by man and if you follow morals established 1400 years ago then those morals might end up being outdated.
    In order for me to accept that morals come from the creator then I first have to be sure the creator is for real and I'm not.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    I love democracy, don't get it twisted. Democracy is the best system created by man.
    Being against abortion or drugs or anything else doesn't make me hate democracy.
    My opinion or anybody's opinion doesn't have to be the ultimate truth.
    I already said I doubt the existence of god so the phrase "Morals come from the creator" is meaningless to me.
    I believe morals were created by man and if you follow morals established 1400 years ago then those morals might end up being outdated.
    In order for me to accept that morals come from the creator then I first have to be sure the creator is for real and I'm not.
    Understood. Now we come to a real discussion point. I can understand why you have the doubts about God, perhaps mostly because of the Bible and its contradictions. You are in search of truth but finding it hard to accept Islam as a truth. It is not a religion started 1400 years ago, it’s the religion of all prophets. Please read my thread below and hope you find it helpful:
    Logical Proof that Islam is the only true religion
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    I can understand why you have the doubts about God, perhaps mostly because of the Bible and its contradictions.
    Not at all, I haven't found any contradictions in the Bible so obviously that is not the reason.
    Could it be the fact that God has failed to communicate to humans in a way all humans can understand?
    I can ask you to prove to me you can understand and write in English and just by answering to my request you have successfully proved to me what I requested from you.
    If I ask God to prove to me he exists I get no response.
    Isn't God all powerful?
    Isn't God all knowledgeable?
    Isn't God capable of answering a simple question?

    Don't look any further, that is the reason.
    By the way, you can give me all sorts of logical reasons why you understand and write in English but unless you put it in paper you cannot convince me.
    Same with God.
    Last edited by Eddy; 08-21-2020 at 05:41 PM. Reason: mistake
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Not at all, I haven't found any contradictions in the Bible so obviously that is not the reason.
    Could it be the fact that God has failed to communicate to humans in a way all humans can understand?
    I can ask you to prove to me you can understand and write in English and just by answering to my request you have successfully proved to me what I requested from you.
    If I ask God to prove to me he exists I get no response.
    Isn't God all powerful?
    Isn't God all knowledgeable?
    Isn't God capable of answering a simple question?

    Don't look any further, that is the reason.
    By the way, you can give me all sorts of logical reasons why you understand and write in English but unless you put it in paper you cannot convince me.
    Same with God.
    you sound just as ridiculous as a kid demanding for answers during his exams...
    this is a test you are going through...the whole point of coming to Earth and living one lifetime here is to search and find your God...and you do that by believing in Him...
    this whole effort would be pointless if He just popped up and showed Himself wouldn't it?
    | Likes Good brother, Khatib Muhammad, Avis liked this post
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Not at all, I haven't found any contradictions in the Bible so obviously that is not the reason.
    Could it be the fact that God has failed to communicate to humans in a way all humans can understand?
    I can ask you to prove to me you can understand and write in English and just by answering to my request you have successfully proved to me what I requested from you.
    If I ask God to prove to me he exists I get no response.
    Isn't God all powerful?
    Isn't God all knowledgeable?
    Isn't God capable of answering a simple question?

    Don't look any further, that is the reason.
    By the way, you can give me all sorts of logical reasons why you understand and write in English but unless you put it in paper you cannot convince me.
    Same with God.
    Its worth spending 5 minutes to watch video below, and if you are a logical person then you have no choice but to accept that existence of God is the only logical explanation of everything around us.
    | Likes Good brother, Avis liked this post
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    this is a test you are going through...the whole point of coming to Earth and living one lifetime here is to search and find your God...and you do that by believing in Him...
    I just can't put together the "Search and find your God" with the "believing in him" part.
    To me these are two different stages of a process. Once you are committed to believing in a God then you are blinded to the possibility that you are worshiping the wrong God.
    In order to search the real God you cannot commit to anything otherwise you end up with blind faith.
    Faith is not based on logic, science nor truth but on strong belief, that's all, "strong belief"
    I'm not ready to commit yet, I need to see signs of this God, there's got to be some signs that lead me to it.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    Language is different in this video idk. But insha Allah, subtitles will help.
    https://youtu.be/Zzpw8OW_YB0

    The End of Atheism - Short Film - YouTube
    ►The End of Atheism - Short Film ►Please Subscribe and Don't forget activeted the notification bell!...
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    Its worth spending 5 minutes to watch video below, and if you are a logical person then you have no choice but to accept that existence of God is the only logical explanation of everything around us.
    The whole video can be summarized by the following quote:
    The universe must have been created by something uncreated which is the most logical rational conclusion and if there's an uncreated creator then it follows it must be powerful because it created the entire universe, it must be knowing or intelligent because it created laws in the universe ...
    That is a huge leap there. Basically it says since we are incapable of a better explanation then something magical must have created the universe and that magical thing is "God".
    Not very convincing.
    Last edited by Eddy; 08-22-2020 at 09:24 PM. Reason: formatting
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    I just can't put together the "Search and find your God" with the "believing in him" part.
    To me these are two different stages of a process. Once you are committed to believing in a God then you are blinded to the possibility that you are worshiping the wrong God.
    In order to search the real God you cannot commit to anything otherwise you end up with blind faith.
    Faith is not based on logic, science nor truth but on strong belief, that's all, "strong belief"
    I'm not ready to commit yet, I need to see signs of this God, there's got to be some signs that lead me to it.
    normally I would agree with you. I also usually demand everything to be logical, scientific, and hard proof etc.
    but when it comes to religion...it is a subject that is beyond science. God is beyond the grasp of time, laws of nature or anything that we could understand. we will never be able to proof that with evidences you are looking for.

    however...there are some clear signs to show you that there should be a highly intelligent creator:

    1 existence of everything
    we all know how complicated a DNA molecule is....according to some theories, the ingredients for simple enzymes existed in some premorial soup waiting for the right conditions...and these enzymes formed and found each other and they were hardly alive...etc...etc...

    this may sound logical to you...but i do not agree with that.
    because from chaos do not come order on its own. those atoms have to find each other to form an enzyme molecule...and multiple such molecules must find each other to develop? you know how small that chance is?
    an example
    glass is just molten sand right? how many sand is there lying in the deserts for centuries? conditions to form glass on its own is also there...lightning or vulcanos etc.
    did someone ever found a marmalade jar made on its own? or some other glass object that we use nowadays? and the chance for that is much greater... no because from chaos do not form order.
    my second objection to that theory is the development of life.
    dead material cannot just come to life...even if those enzymes did form by chance...no matter how small...the step between dead material...and hardly alive enzymes is still too big. how can dead material be suddenly hardly alive? that is also not logical.

    2 the Quraan is a clear sign God gave us to show us He exists...this is just given information...for free.
    as a scientist or an individual who is looking for signs, you should at least examine that.
    it does not have a human author. our prophet sas was illiterate...so how come he can dictate a highly poetic but so accurate book with more than 600 pages on his own? that is not possible.

    there are of course many more signs that point in the direction of God...but for now I will leave it with these two.
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