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Fight only those who fight you

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    Fight only those who fight you (OP)


    Firstly, in Islam, we only ever fight (and as a last resort) to ultimately obtain peace. I think that’s the obvious argument that everyone makes.
    That is what a Muslim said on a thread called "Saying "Islām Is A Religion of Peace"...?"


    I wasn't allowed to respond to it because I'm not a Muslim so I had to open this thread.

    Anti muslim apologists are quick to bring up Quran 9:29 to defeat that line of thinking.

    SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

    Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

    I am not that quick to make cheap accusations, I like to make my own little research before saying anything.
    I have to admit, the (anti) muslim apologists are not that wrong after all.

    I missed the word in parenthesis in the original post. At that time the Forum didn't give me the option to edit the text.
    Last edited by Eddy; 08-13-2020 at 04:19 AM. Reason: missing word

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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

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    How come Muslims did such a great job preserving the Quran and their culture after Muhammad but didn't do the same thing after all the other prophets?
    For us muslims, it IS preserved. It wasn't the muslims but God who preserved it.
    (Quran 15:9) Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.
    But to prove it you, there are many old manuscripts of quran dated in 1st century AH and 2nd century AH. The researchers say that the words written in it are exactly the same as we have the quran today.
    Prophet(peace be upon him) was illetrate but whenever a verse was revealed to him, he immediately taught it to his companions who would memorize it and WRITE it. This is how quran was passed from generations to generations.
    However, if you don't believe this, you may check the Birmingham quran manuscript, it has parts of chapters 18 to 20 dated back to 568 AD – 645 AD. AND it is exactly same as we read it today. Then you have sana'a manuscript dated back to 671 AD. Next you have topkapi manuscript dated back to early to mid 8th century. There are few more but i'll just leave here.
    Ahadith were written by the people of 1st, 2nd, 3rd generations through narrations by companions of prophet. AND only these 3 generations's books are seen to be authentic,as far as i know(correct me if am wrong). If there is even a bit of confusion,it is put into the category of hasan(fair) or zaef(weak) hadiths. And the most important thing, there isn't a hadith which contadicts with the quran. If it were to be changed by non-muslims, there should be some contadictions but no,there isn't any. And muslims were also serious in keeping the ahadith safe, if anyone tries to change the hadith or make his own,he isn't considered a good person. After all, ahadiths are also in the protection of God.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    We live in a world where 2 + 2 = 5

    Just as 1 + 1 +1 = 1

    If you are confused

    Who is god?, Jesus

    Is Jesus the son of Mary?, Yes

    Who created Mary?, God.

    Who is God?, Jesus

    Jesus is the begotten son., Yes

    Who is his father?, God.

    Who is God?, Jesus.

    Jesus is a servant of God?, Yes

    Who is God?, Jesus.

    Jesus died on the cross?Yes

    Who resurrected him?, God.

    Who is God?, Jesus

    Jesus is a messenger?, Yes

    Who sent him?, God.

    Who is God?, Jesus.

    Did Jesus worship while on earth?, Yes

    Whom did he worship?, God.

    Who is God?, Jesus.

    Did God have a beginning?, No

    Then who was born on 25 DEC?, Jesus.

    Who is God?, Jesus

    Where's God?, In heaven

    How many are there in heaven?, Only one God.

    Where's Jesus?, He is sitted on the right hand of his father.

    Who is God?, Jesus.

    Then how many are they in heaven?, Only one God

    Then how many seats?, One

    Where's Jesus?, Seated next to God.

    Then how are they seated?, On one chair

    Its only understood by those with the holy spirit.

    Who is God?Jesus.

    Ha haha what a confusion.

    So beautiful to be a Muslim. Alhamdulillah all we need to say is we believe in
    That usually happens when you learn Christianity from Ali Dawah and Mohammed Hijab.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by medico View Post
    there are many old manuscripts of quran dated in 1st century AH and 2nd century AH. The researchers say that the words written in it are exactly the same as we have the quran today.
    You're missing the point here.
    I'm not disputing the preservation of the Quran nor the culture of Muslims after Muhammad, I'm disputing the Quran given to all the other prophets (including Jesus).
    Why don't we have a single page of any of them?
    Muslims claim all the prophets were given the same messages given to prophet Muhammad.
    How come nothing of that was preserved by Allah the way he preserved the messages given to prophet Muhammad?
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    That usually happens when you learn Christianity from Ali Dawah and Mohammed Hijab.
    Lets be real here, these are the explanations given by Christians. Even then, they cannot consistently or confidently explain who God is without, not only confusing their questioners, but confusing themselves. Often times, they make up things as they go in order to try to explain the trinity and it only goes down hill from there.

    Surah Ikhlas
    بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
    قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ
    اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ
    لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ
    وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ

    1. “Say: He, Allah, is One,"
    2. “Allah, the Eternal,"
    3. “He begets not, nor is He begotten,"
    4. “And there is none like unto Him.”
    No son, spirits, fathers, god form, man form, blood sacrifices, and so on. Nice, simple, and to the point. Anyone without bias would agree that there is just no comparison
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by keiv View Post
    Lets be real here, these are the explanations given by Christians
    Not really, let me try myself.

    We live in a world where 2 + 2 = 5

    Just as 1 + 1 +1 = 1

    If you are confused (and your IQ is below average)

    Who is god?, (trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)j

    Is Jesus the son of Mary?, Yes (the human Jesus)

    Who created Mary?, God. (Her mother and father.)

    Who is God?, Jesus (trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Jesus is the begotten son., Yes

    Who is his father?, God.(Jesus the human was created by the father)

    Who is God?, Jesus.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Jesus is a servant of God?, Yes (that could only apply to Jesus the human)

    Who is God?, Jesus.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Jesus died on the cross?Yes

    Who resurrected him?, God.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Who is God?, Jesus(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Jesus is a messenger?, Yes (Jesus the Human being)

    Who sent him?, God.(the father)

    Who is God?, Jesus.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Did Jesus worship while on earth?, Yes

    Whom did he worship?, God.(as a human he worshipped the father)

    Who is God?, Jesus.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Did God have a beginning?, No

    Then who was born on 25 DEC?, Jesus.(the human)

    Who is God?, Jesus(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Where's God?, In heaven

    How many are there in heaven?, Only one God.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Where's Jesus?, He is sitted on the right hand of his father.

    Who is God?, Jesus.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Then how many are they in heaven?, Only one God(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Then how many seats?, One (low IQ question)

    Where's Jesus?, Seated next to God. (Low IQ answer) (next to the father)
    Then how are they seated?, On one chair (Low IQ question)

    Its only understood by those with the holy spirit. (and a normal IQ)

    Who is God?Jesus.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Ha haha what a confusion. (are you still confused?)
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    Jeus PBUH is neither God nor the son of God

    Jeus PBUH is neither God nor the son of God
    WHAT DOES THE WORD SON OF GOD MEANS IN BIBLICAL SENSE All four Gospels record Jesus as saying: “Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons...
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Your claims that ..... is not good enough for me.
    You claimed ....
    That is so ridiculous

    ......That is really awful, why don't you try to get the facts straight before dismissing them.....


    .... I dare you to find a quote when I said I personally agree with all those liberals things you named.....

    ..... By the way let me school a bit. .....


    ...... So you see you cannot......


    ...... That is really a poor view of how things happen......


    ..... Personally I get most of my values from Christianity so I don't agree with most of those things you mentioned, but that is just me and I don't speak for the rest of the west.......

    Another "Christian" who denies the existence of God.

    Useful tool to hook a majority on side whilst simultaneously presenting them as ridiculous.

    BTW, in your opinion @Eddy are both the Protocols of the learned elders, and the Hasbara handbook "forgeries" ? or is it just one?

    Coz i see at least one playing out like a symphony.


    BTW, the habit of emphatically pointing subjectively at the person with whom one is supposed to having a discussion/constructive debate -especially in circumstances where objectivity is more fitting and much, much easier- and thereby dragging the person into a bickering contest -
    gives an impression of insincerity - makes a person think of the word "TROLL".
    I know the hasbara teaches it in order to attempt to isolate the targeted individual from the majority (though the individual is chosen due to the fact that the majority is likely to agree with a significant amount of his/her assertions), and create a negative energy which aims to put the audience in a passive, uninvolved state .... it becomes a boring pattern which only serves to further enlighten those who have seen it pop up over the years - a bit like a broken record.

    Think about it, when you attempt to attain majority applause by duping them onto a bandwagon of falsehood and crime, you are doing the work of iblees -since you are corrupting them and bearing your portion of their actions. Isn't that a heavy load to be bearing for a pittance? Isn't that work from home or in an internet cafe like setting packed with insincere frauds who are in actuality selling their souls for a pittance -who are usually manipulated into criminal actions through the nurturing of an idea of a common bond (i.e liberal jews who hate g-d but are also serving g-d and a greater (rothschild) cause) - a crappy deal - especially when you consider that you are leaving your own soul and the souls of those whom you help to corrupt - in a darker place than it was before you were born?
    What answer will you give on the inevitable day?
    Please consider my words as not an attack on yourself or ego, but an attempt to elicit a chain of positive thought in your audience and in you.
    Last edited by Abz2000; 08-31-2020 at 05:22 AM.
    Fight only those who fight you




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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    Jeus PBUH is neither God nor the son of God

    Jeus PBUH is neither God nor the son of God
    WHAT DOES THE WORD SON OF GOD MEANS IN BIBLICAL SENSE All four Gospels record Jesus as saying: “Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons...
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    Another "Christian" who denies the existence of God.
    Agnostic from Christian background.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    gives an impression of insincerity - makes a person think of the word "TROLL".
    Yes, the word Troll is totally fitting. I'm one debating the credibility of Allah on an Islamic forum.
    That's the challenge, my arguments against the arguments of knowledgeable Muslims who know their religion and can access information (Quran verses, Hadith, Tafsir, etc) very quickly and that are ready to defend their religion with passion.
    That's the idea.
    I cannot come here and claim there are errors in Quran without doing my homework.
    Even so, I'm ready to allow myself to be shown that I'm wrong.
    But I'm also ready to defend my point of view because my point of view is never lacking of extensive work behind it.
    By doing a lot of research I have come to understand a lot about the Islamic world and Muslims.
    I have also found a lot of flaws in the Scriptures (the Quran mainly) and I still haven't found answers to those.

    Do you believe that is not ethical to discuss Islamic scriptures errors in an Islamic forum?
    What if Muslims cannot find answers?
    Does that exposes the religion of Islam?
    Should we just follow the sheep in front of us and not ask questions?
    I'm not being disrespectful but just inquisitive.
    Or being inquisitive is disrespectful in the eyes of a religious fanatic?
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    Great video, perfectly explains Christianity.
    Last edited by 'Abdullah; 08-31-2020 at 03:06 PM.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    Great video, perfectly explains Christianity.
    Really, is that what it shows?
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Not really, let me try myself.

    We live in a world where 2 + 2 = 5

    Just as 1 + 1 +1 = 1

    If you are confused (and your IQ is below average)

    Who is god?, (trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)j

    Is Jesus the son of Mary?, Yes (the human Jesus)

    Who created Mary?, God. (Her mother and father.)

    Who is God?, Jesus (trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Jesus is the begotten son., Yes

    Who is his father?, God.(Jesus the human was created by the father)

    Who is God?, Jesus.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Jesus is a servant of God?, Yes (that could only apply to Jesus the human)

    Who is God?, Jesus.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Jesus died on the cross?Yes

    Who resurrected him?, God.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Who is God?, Jesus(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Jesus is a messenger?, Yes (Jesus the Human being)

    Who sent him?, God.(the father)

    Who is God?, Jesus.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Did Jesus worship while on earth?, Yes

    Whom did he worship?, God.(as a human he worshipped the father)

    Who is God?, Jesus.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Did God have a beginning?, No

    Then who was born on 25 DEC?, Jesus.(the human)

    Who is God?, Jesus(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Where's God?, In heaven

    How many are there in heaven?, Only one God.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Where's Jesus?, He is sitted on the right hand of his father.

    Who is God?, Jesus.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Then how many are they in heaven?, Only one God(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Then how many seats?, One (low IQ question)

    Where's Jesus?, Seated next to God. (Low IQ answer) (next to the father)
    Then how are they seated?, On one chair (Low IQ question)

    Its only understood by those with the holy spirit. (and a normal IQ)

    Who is God?Jesus.(trinitarians, Father, son, holy spirit)

    Ha haha what a confusion. (are you still confused?)
    Knowledge is ignorance to the people of ignorance, just as ignorance is ignorance to the people of knowledge.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Agnostic from Christian background.Yes, the word Troll is totally fitting. I'm one debating the credibility of Allah on an Islamic forum.That's the challenge, my arguments against the arguments of knowledgeable Muslims who know their religion and can access information (Quran verses, Hadith, Tafsir, etc) very quickly and that are ready to defend their religion with passion.That's the idea.I cannot come here and claim there are errors in Quran without doing my homework.Even so, I'm ready to allow myself to be shown that I'm wrong.But I'm also ready to defend my point of view because my point of view is never lacking of extensive work behind it.By doing a lot of research I have come to understand a lot about the Islamic world and Muslims.I have also found a lot of flaws in the Scriptures (the Quran mainly) and I still haven't found answers to those.Do you believe that is not ethical to discuss Islamic scriptures errors in an Islamic forum?What if Muslims cannot find answers?Does that exposes the religion of Islam?Should we just follow the sheep in front of us and not ask questions?I'm not being disrespectful but just inquisitive.Or being inquisitive is disrespectful in the eyes of a religious fanatic?
    i believe that the inquisitive mind should be perfectly welcome to ask useful questions, and that the one who bellieves he has a valid argument - should present that argument so that it can be looked into and understood.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpdmixP3_iYAnd

    i also believe that those who dismiss or steer around clear rebuttals only to make a mess with more lame arguments - are simply insincere, and then it becomes a boring and exasperating waste of time- since those who are able to answer tend to either waste their time - or lose interest after sensing worthless trolling (not everyone likes wallowing in dung as sh*t's flying all over the room).
    Then those who have less knowledge are left to debate - and that's a bit like DDOS SABOTAGE.
    Last edited by Abz2000; 09-02-2020 at 01:42 PM.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    i also believe that those who dismiss or steer around clear rebuttals only to make a mess with more lame arguments - are simply insincere
    Clear rebuttals?

    Ok, let's put that to a test.

    What was the clear rebuttal to this question?

    You believe that the Quran has been preserved unchanged since the time it was created, don't you?
    That because Muslims preserved every word of it thru time.
    Not only that but Muslims maintained their culture thru all this time.
    My problem with this:
    How come Muslims did such a great job preserving the Quran and their culture after Muhammad but didn't do the same thing after all the other prophets?
    You claimed Allah gave the same message to all the other prophets and at each of those times people were initially Muslims.
    Mysteriously each time not only people forgot about the islamic message but also about the Islamic culture and instead turned into a more Jewish like culture.
    That is hard to explain, isn't it?
    The same happened when Jesus came around.
    According to your version at the beginning the message to Jesus was similar to the message to Muhammad.
    Am I correct?
    But again mysteriously the very resilient Muslims forgot about the Islamic teachings and their Islamic culture and instead turned into what today is the very different Christian beliefs and culture.
    History remembers the culture of the people after Jesus and Moses and others but history mysteriously forgot all about the existence of some Islamic culture at all those times.
    What would be your answer to that or what do you think was the clear rebuttal to this question?
    Last edited by Eddy; 09-02-2020 at 08:29 PM. Reason: correction
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Clear rebuttals?

    Ok, let's put that to a test.

    What was the clear rebuttal to this question?



    What would be your answer to that or what do you think was the clear rebuttal to this question?
    Are you ready to enter in shock? I challenge you to visit those links I provided, if you have guts.

    1. Discover-The-Truth.com
    2. www.abuaminaelias.com
    3. Answering-Christianity.com
    4. Call-To-Monotheism.com
    5. wedefendislam.wordpress.com
    6. discoverthetruefaceofislam.wordpress.com
    7. discoverthetruefacts.wordpress.com
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Clear rebuttals?Ok, let's put that to a test.What was the clear rebuttal to this question?You believe that the Quran has been preserved unchanged since the time it was created, don't you?
    I belive that the divine thinking and relaying of communication is not limited to any human language, and that it is interpreted into human language as it is conveyed to humans.

    The lack of the letters "p" , and "ch" in the Arabic alphabet, are logical evidences which strengthen this thinking, since any word or name containing those sounds would have to be converted to sounds which fit from the available Arabic alphabet of the time.

    Eg. Quran, Ch.11 V.44

    The word was either historically called Judee by humans but slowly changed to Chudee, or was or was historically Chudee but conveyed to the Prophet in terms of what he could convey, then written down as Judee when penned due to limitations of language.


    If the second of the two logical possibilities is true, or if there had been such a similar case, it follows that Allah conveys guidance to humans with more emphasis on practicality than on binary accuracy. The same line of thinking would part answer following questions about how different communications came at different times but were preserved differently by humans (sometimes not too well).

    I see the Quran as a communication and a beam lighting a dark road for humans, rather than as a computer with data on it where one transcription difference definitely spells disaster.

    Where Perfect Allah is communicating with imperfect humans, and is helping them walk straight.

    Therefore, although i have no reason to believe that there are any mistakes -i wouldn't be too flustered (rather would be ingrigued and want to know more) if anybody could prove that there were any, and considering that it is the brightest beam of light amongst others on the aforementioned dark path, i would consider it foolish to dismiss it over a trifle.


    Al-Qasas 28:49

    قُلْ فَأْتُوا۟ بِكِتَٰبٍ مِّنْ عِندِ ٱللَّهِ هُوَ أَهْدَىٰ مِنْهُمَآ أَتَّبِعْهُ إِن كُنتُمْ صَٰدِقِينَ

    Say, "Then bring a scripture from Allah which is more guiding than either of them that I may follow it, if you should be truthful."

    get Quran App:https://goo.gl/w6rESk

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    That because Muslims preserved every word of it thru time.Not only that but Muslims maintained their culture thru all this time.My problem with this:How come Muslims did such a great job preserving the Quran and their culture after Muhammad but didn't do the same thing after all the other prophets?
    Emphasis and importance placed by humans on recording and preservation through writing is an evolving phenomenon, it increased with time and from lessons learned.

    It is logical to conclude that people who preserved records of events and divine communications through writing earlier, did so according to the best of their ability and hindsight at the time - which was far less efficient when conoared to today.

    You may note that the companions of the prophet Muhammad had to sometimes be told NOT to write everything he said - out of an apprehension that those words might be confused with Quran - which the Prophet himself was having recorded through writing and memorization.
    This indicates that the importance of preserving records through writing had come to be appreciated heavily by the people at the time the Quran was revealed - since he was no king, and not amongst the richest of his people.

    Regarding the lack of confusion through different "versions" - the very first generation of companions (who lived and walked with the Prophet ) had an authorized copy enforced on all governorates in their lifetimes when interpretations in different dialects began to become a problem of moment - this could easily have been due to the lessons they had learned from observing the situation of those who were following previously revealed scriptures.


    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    You claimed Allah gave the same message to all the other prophets and at each of those times people were initially Muslims.
    A person who accepts and acknowledges the overall authority of Allah and works to obey the guidance of Allah :swt; is a Muslim. A person who uses older laws of previous generations despite knowing that other updates have been added more recently by the same divine source - are not Muslims even if they inwardly believe that Allah is One.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Mysteriously each time not only people forgot about the islamic message but also about the Islamic culture and instead turned into a more Jewish like culture.That is hard to explain, isn't it?

    Not really difficult actually. There arrive stages where people get lax, then if those who observe that things are going downhill manage to do something about it -they usually begin to enact more rigid laws and sharper definitions of blurry lines, often depending on the state of emergency, then if those who follow afterwards understand that those laws were contextual to the situation at the time of enactment, they can continue to prosper as long as they recognise the foundations and evolve while basing themselves on the original lessons, and using precedents that were later set as references and not law.

    But the issue is kingship and precedent, human kings and judges are sometimes lazy or otherwise averse to over-ruling precedent - it is often considered radical or controversial, and risks rebellion and questioning of authority. The history of the jews carries with it a history of often unbroken chains of kings and incrementally added rulings which were rarely discarded once added.

    That is why i believe Muslims are now cautioned to make such distinction:

    Al-Ma'idah 5:44إِنَّآ أَنزَلْنَا ٱلتَّوْرَىٰةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌۚ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا ٱلنَّبِيُّونَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا۟ لِلَّذِينَ هَادُوا۟ وَٱلرَّبَّٰنِيُّونَ وَٱلْأَحْبَارُ بِمَا ٱسْتُحْفِظُوا۟ مِن كِتَٰبِ ٱللَّهِ وَكَانُوا۟ عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَآءَۚ فَلَا تَخْشَوُا۟ ٱلنَّاسَ وَٱخْشَوْنِ وَلَا تَشْتَرُوا۟ بِـَٔايَٰتِى ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًاۚ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فَأُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْكَٰفِرُونَ

    Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto.

    So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price.

    And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

    get Quran App:https://goo.gl/w6rESkAt-Taubah


    9:31ٱتَّخَذُوٓا۟ أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَٰنَهُمْ أَرْبَابًا مِّن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ وَٱلْمَسِيحَ ٱبْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَمَآ أُمِرُوٓا۟ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُوٓا۟ إِلَٰهًا وَٰحِدًاۖ لَّآ إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَۚ سُبْحَٰنَهُۥ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

    English - Sahih International

    They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary.

    And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.


    get Quran App:https://goo.gl/w6rESk

    It's not too difficult to imagine a scenario in which people who become overly rigid in their legislation and imagination of infallibility of their kings and scholars - accuse later prophets of being heretical or goy, and demand that such Prophets toe the line of kingly tradition and precedent if they are to be deemed acceptable.
    The denial and killing of such Prophets is a testimony to their egotistic denial and the fact that they would rather teach God their religion than learn it from Him.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    The same happened when Jesus came around.According to your version at the beginning the message to Jesus was similar to the message to Muhammad.Am I correct?
    In terms of overall essence - yes, however, the evolution of the people and understanding of tribal relevance was a lot less mature before than later, therefore the latter was more fitted to be implemented internationally.
    At the time of the first coming of Jesus , untethering oneself from one's tribe was seen as treacherous by most, and almost suicidal considering that a person in a foreign land without tribal backing was prey to unknown traditions and legislation - or whim of the tribes which they interacted with.

    Whereas at the time of Muhammad and after it was a lot safer and easier for people to travel far and wide, therefore it is logical to assume that divine legislation during the stage of the Quran could bear high contrast with all previously revealed divine laws, guidelines, and advice - even though each was unique to it's stage in human and community evolution in contrast to others.
    The Muslims went head to head with their own tribe members based on law - despite it appearing as previously unimaginable to some elders.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    But again mysteriously the very resilient Muslims forgot about the Islamic teachings and their Islamic culture and instead turned into what today is the very different Christian beliefs and culture.
    You'd have to research the understanding of people around Jesus and the frame of mind cultured by history of the significantly later roman councils and the primitive paganry of a long line of roman kings up until then in order to understand that evolution/defacement.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    History remembers the culture of the people after Jesus and Moses and others but history mysteriously forgot all about the existence of some Islamic culture at all those times.What would be your answer to that or what do you think was the clear rebuttal to this question?
    History does not remember, forget, or say anything, since history is a chain of transpired events, it is rather people that keep historical records who are often prone to err. But that's just how it is innit, we have to make do by researching, being sceptical, critical, eager to find and accept what is more true and sound, then strive to do better than those before us due to the hindsights they left for us from failiures and triumphs.


    ......God knows what needed rebutting if there was anything there to rebut though.
    Last edited by Abz2000; 09-03-2020 at 09:16 AM.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    Greetings and peace be with you Eddy;

    Note: As you should know by now I'm an agnostic which means I don't believe in God, Jesus as God, The Holy Spirit, Allah, the white winged horse, angel Gabriel and all the rest that is the product of human imagination.
    You don't have real evidence to show how the universe came to be by natural causes. You don't have real evidence to show how life started on Earth by natural causes. You don't have the courage to say you are an atheist, but you are agnostic. Yet being an agnostic has to be the most imperfect belief. God has to exist fully and totally or there is no God, there cannot be a 'maybe agnostic god'.

    So you have to keep in mind that when I talk about Christianity I am never implying I believe what Christians believe.
    So why do you keep talking about Christianity on a Muslim forum? It would be like me saying about pastafarians, and I don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

    Eric
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    You believe that the Quran has been preserved unchanged since the time it was created, don't you?
    That because Muslims preserved every word of it thru time.
    Not only that but Muslims maintained their culture thru all this time.
    My problem with this:
    How come Muslims did such a great job preserving the Quran and their culture after Muhammad but didn't do the same thing after all the other prophets?
    You claimed Allah gave the same message to all the other prophets and at each of those times people were initially Muslims.
    Mysteriously each time not only people forgot about the islamic message but also about the Islamic culture and instead turned into a more Jewish like culture.
    That is hard to explain, isn't it?
    The same happened when Jesus came around.
    According to your version at the beginning the message to Jesus was similar to the message to Muhammad.
    Am I correct?
    But again mysteriously the very resilient Muslims forgot about the Islamic teachings and their Islamic culture and instead turned into what today is the very different Christian beliefs and culture.
    History remembers the culture of the people after Jesus and Moses and others but history mysteriously forgot all about the existence of some Islamic culture at all those times.
    Sorry, I haven't had the time to answer to any social media lately.
    The way you answered this is not what I was expecting and didn't answer my main point.
    Let me explain.

    Main point:
    The Quran claims all prophets prior to Muhammad received similar Islamic messages.
    The Quran claims at the time of the prophets (Abraham, David, Moses, Jesus) all their followers were Muslims and therefore there should be an Islamic culture developing at those times.

    My position:
    I believe all that is false.
    Why?
    Because there is no evidence of any of that being truth based on historical facts.
    There are many accounts from witnesses that describe the time of Jesus and Moses.
    We know about the culture at the time from many sources.
    The islamic claims don't match with any of the actual historical accounts.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    Regarding the lack of confusion through different "versions" - the very first generation of companions (who lived and walked with the Prophet ) had an authorized copy enforced on all governorates in their lifetimes when interpretations in different dialects began to become a problem of moment - this could easily have been due to the lessons they had learned from observing the situation of those who were following previously revealed scriptures.
    This is irrelevant since my point is not about the reliability of the Quran after Muhammad but the lack of Qurans (Islamic scriptures) prior to Muhammad.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    The evolution of the people and understanding of tribal relevance was a lot less mature before than later, therefore the latter was more fitted to be implemented internationally
    I'm not sure what that means since Christianity showed that it was capable of being implemented internationally way before the time of Muhammad.
    The once enemies and responsible for the death of Jesus ended up adopting Christianity later on and by doing so they expanded Christianity to most parts of the world.

    I appreciate your explanations but I fail to understand how a huge community (Islamic religion and culture) changed its core beliefs thru history so many times without leaving any trace.
    That is just impossible to believe.

    All your explanations seem to be your own conclusions based on history common trends and your own logic but zero concrete evidence that what the Quran claims comes close to historical facts.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    So why do you keep talking about Christianity on a Muslim forum? It would be like me saying about pastafarians, and I don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
    Perhaps you should pay attention and realize I'm here talking about Islam.
    Muslims keep asking me about Christianity and I don't have a problem answering.
    You don't need to read my posts if that bothers you so much.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Nitro Zeus View Post
    Are you ready to enter in shock? I challenge you to visit those links I provided, if you have guts.
    Maybe one of these days I'll have the guts and time to follow those links.
    Meanwhile why don't you give me a preview of the shocking things I can find there?
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