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Fight only those who fight you

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    Fight only those who fight you (OP)


    Firstly, in Islam, we only ever fight (and as a last resort) to ultimately obtain peace. I think that’s the obvious argument that everyone makes.
    That is what a Muslim said on a thread called "Saying "Islām Is A Religion of Peace"...?"


    I wasn't allowed to respond to it because I'm not a Muslim so I had to open this thread.

    Anti muslim apologists are quick to bring up Quran 9:29 to defeat that line of thinking.

    SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

    Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

    I am not that quick to make cheap accusations, I like to make my own little research before saying anything.
    I have to admit, the (anti) muslim apologists are not that wrong after all.

    I missed the word in parenthesis in the original post. At that time the Forum didn't give me the option to edit the text.
    Last edited by Eddy; 08-13-2020 at 04:19 AM. Reason: missing word

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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

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    Greetings and peace be with you Eddy,

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Perhaps you should pay attention and realize I'm here talking about Islam.
    Understood

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Muslims keep asking me about Christianity and I don't have a problem answering.
    And the reason they asked you about Christianity; is because you put Christian down as your religion; then you later claim you are agnostic.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    All your explanations seem to be your own conclusions based on history common trends and your own logic but zero concrete evidence that what the Quran claims comes close to historical facts.
    If you are going to read parts of the Quran, then search for a greatest good meaning. No one would follow Islam if they saw it as you do. These scriptures have inspired a billion plus followers; there has to be something you are missing.

    In the spirit of searching for God,

    Eric
    | Likes Grandad liked this post
    Fight only those who fight you

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    If you are going to read parts of the Quran, then search for a greatest good meaning. No one would follow Islam if they saw it as you do.
    What happens when you realize the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus are not real?
    Don't you want to know the truth?
    What happens when you realize the God of Christianity and Islam might not be there?
    Don't you want to know the truth?
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    Greetings and peace be with you Eddy;

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Don't you want to know the truth?
    Yes.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    What happens when you realize the God of Christianity and Islam might not be there?
    The creation of the universe is history, and you can't change history. God the creator of all that is seen and unseen either exists fully and totally, or there is no god. There cannot be a maybe or probable god. I have total faith that God the Creator exists fully and totally.

    I started a thread a while ago asking how could the universe and life start without God? How could life evolve without God? Any thoughts?

    How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without God?

    In the spirit of searching for God;
    Eric
    Fight only those who fight you

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    The creation of the universe is history, and you can't change history.
    True


    format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    God the creator of all that is seen and unseen either exists fully and totally, or there is no god.
    That is your speculation, I wouldn't be so sure to speak of something I know nothing about.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    There cannot be a maybe or probable god. I have total faith that God the Creator exists fully and totally.
    You do have total faith, but faith is just faith, it doesn't matter if it is weak or strong it is still just faith at the end.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    I started a thread a while ago asking how could the universe and life start without God? How could life evolve without God? Any thoughts?
    Should I speculate to sound knowledgeable or just tell the truth and say "I don't know"?
    One thing is for sure, life has evolved without the help of any God for thousands of years.
    What we don't know is how did it all started.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    Greetings and peace be with you Eddy;

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Should I speculate to sound knowledgeable or just tell the truth and say "I don't know"?
    Science is not able to say how the universe came to be; or how life started on Earth. As you say; the best answer is we don't know.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    One thing is for sure, life has evolved without the help of any God for thousands of years.
    I can't believe this is true, but if you have compelling evidence, then let's hear it.

    In the spirit of searching for God;
    Eric
    Fight only those who fight you

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    I can't believe this is true, but if you have compelling evidence, then let's hear it.
    That has a very easy answer, evolution.
    We don't know how all started, we only have some good theories which could explain things but not 100%.
    But once things got started we have a pretty good idea how thing evolved.
    We'll never get proof of everything, that's a fact for now.
    Nature can show us at any minute that has the power to create new beings and species without any help from God.
    Leave a peach to rotten and all of a sudden you get newly born worms and flies.
    These newly formed beings are so sophisticated that we "humans" with all our new technology cannot come close to clone.
    They seem like little miracles but they were created from a totally natural process that science can easily explain.
    No need for God.
    At a bigger scale you can project and realize that nature is a really powerful thing.
    The fact that we don't quite understand it doesn't mean a God had to be involved in the process.
    That is just a cop out when something cannot be explained.
    I a few words:
    Things don't happen by acts of magic but by natural evolution and following natural processes that we don't always understand and that we cannot always prove scientifically.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    Greetings and peace be with you Eddy;

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Nature can show us at any minute that has the power to create new beings and species without any help from God.
    Leave a peach to rotten and all of a sudden you get newly born worms and flies.
    With all due respect, this explains nothing, worms and flies lay eggs in rotten fruit, then babies are born.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    The fact that we don't quite understand it doesn't mean a God had to be involved in the process.
    Three billion years ago, there was just single cell life. Evolution cannot explain how the eye and the skeletal system came to be purely by natural causes.

    In the spirit of searching for God,

    Eric
    Fight only those who fight you

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    Three billion years ago, there was just single cell life. Evolution cannot explain how the eye and the skeletal system came to be purely by natural causes.
    Evolution could explain it if "evolution" could speak for itself, unfortunately is us humans who cannot explain how the eye and the skeletal system came to be from natural processes.
    Don't blame evolution's lack of communication skills for our ignorance.
    You can go back step by step from the present to the past and everything can be explained very neatly but as soon as you reach a point (in this case three billion years) when your ignorance block you from the truth and then you hit the panic button and scream "there's no way" this couldn't be done by nature itself.
    How illogical is that?
    That's where religion comes in handy.
    How can I blame you?
    God has all the answers you're incapable of finding by yourself.
    It's human nature.
    You're not alone.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    Greetings and peace be with you Eddy,

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    unfortunately is us humans who cannot explain how the eye and the skeletal system came to be from natural processes.
    Again, we don't know - you don't know.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    You can go back step by step from the present to the past and everything can be explained very neatly but as soon as you reach a point (in this case three billion years)
    If you think you can go back step by step to three billion years ago, then you would be able to explain how the eye and the skeletal system evolved - but you can't.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    God has all the answers you're incapable of finding by yourself
    I rely on science, and science does not have convincing evidence of how the universe and life happened by natural causes. Science has no convincing evidence for the evolution of the eye and the skeletal system.

    That leaves faith and trust in God, that is all we need.

    In the spirit of searching for God,
    Eric
    Fight only those who fight you

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    I rely on science, and science does not have convincing evidence of how the universe and life happened by natural causes. Science has no convincing evidence for the evolution of the eye and the skeletal system.

    That leaves faith and trust in God, that is all we need.
    True, there's no conclusive evidence but there are theories that are very credible and logical about both: the eye and skeletal system.
    Those theories are a lot more convincing than the leap of faith needed to believe in the existence of a creator

    So you said you rely on science.
    And you said "science does not have convincing evidence of how the universe and life happened by natural causes."
    So that turns you into believing in God.

    Since you rely on science:
    Does science have convincing evidence of how the universe and life happened by means of a creator?
    Are you aware of the double standards in your thinking?
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    Greetings and peace be with you Eddy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    True, there's no conclusive evidence but there are theories that are very credible and logical about both: the eye and skeletal system.
    When you don't have conclusive evidence, you need faith to believe something is true. So all you have is faith in a theory, nothing more.

    In the spirit of searching for God,
    Eric
    Fight only those who fight you

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    That is what a Muslim said on a thread called "Saying "Islām Is A Religion of Peace"...?"I wasn't allowed to respond to it because I'm not a Muslim so I had to open this thread.Anti muslim apologists are quick to bring up Quran 9:29 to defeat that line of thinking.SAHIH INTERNATIONALFight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.I am not that quick to make cheap accusations, I like to make my own little research before saying anything.I have to admit, the (anti) muslim apologists are not that wrong after all.I missed the word in parenthesis in the original post. At that time the Forum didn't give me the option to edit the text.
    Islam" is derived from the Arabic word "sal'm" which. literally means peace. The religion demonstrates peace and tolerance.

    there are good and bad people even among us Muslims

    but those who follow the real teaching / scripture Quran and verified hadith / words of the last and final prophet of Allah , prophet Mohammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam they are among the good

    Let's clear the miss understanding caused by Sahih international

    We are to convince people to accept that their lord is Allah same as ours and prophet Mohammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is the last and final messenger / prophet of Allah .

    many religions such Christianity also believes in judgement

    We are to convince the people do good deeds as its better for them and world

    for example planting a tree is good deed

    prophet Mohammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam told us Muslims to plant trees

    Look at the effects on current global warming on humans and other beings

    When forests die many of animals go extinct

    As for unlawful at time of prophet Mohammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam there were barely any Muslims

    he never used force he convinced people to stop

    such as wine / alcohol when we read about it it's bad for health

    It also causes stress in family / relationships like physical abuse done on women when drunk

    It is prohibited / unlawful in Islam

    Adultery breaks modesty of society isn't it better to love and get married stay loyal and honest to each other

    in our time we barely see any true love but in past there was

    In western society most couples last only a few months and often complain about cheating

    In Islam adultery is unlawful

    As for we fight as last resort

    Suppose someone is trying to rape the person you extremely care about ,

    Would you just sit and watch or fight to stop that person

    Maybe you will fight

    Similarly we Muslims will fight

    Suppose your country goes to war and other country the invader is killing the citizens

    If you are patriot you will fight for country or at least fight to protect your household / family

    similarly we Muslims will fight

    most of the western society dont believe in any religion / dont care

    Where as we Muslims everywhere care a lot about religion

    the amount of respect you have for your parents multiple it by 100 at least that's how much we respect prophet Mohammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam

    when some non Muslim disrespects him it truly breaks our heart and since we are human being too in emotion we sometimes go berserk

    isn't it better to understand the emotions and respect it of every human

    sadly many non Muslims dont do that .
    Last edited by Shayan'M'; 05-22-2021 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Better understanding
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    Addition as for Quran 9:29 the fight mentioned was held during the time of prophet Mohammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam when the non Muslims were trying to kill us all so we were commanded to fight back

    Its not fight a non Muslim all the time

    Surah At-Taubah =9 Verse 32:
    يُرِيدُونَ أَن يُطْفِئُوا نُورَ اللَّهِ بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَيَأْبَى اللَّهُ إِلَّا أَن يُتِمَّ نُورَهُ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْكَافِرُونَ

    They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad SAW has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).
    Last edited by Shayan'M'; 05-23-2021 at 06:19 AM. Reason: Spell check
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    Another translation of the above mentioned verse of 9:32

    They want to extinguish God's [guiding] light with their utterances: but God will not allow [this to pass], for He has willed to spread His light in all its fullness, however hateful this may be to all who deny the truth.

    Surah At-Taubah, Verse 31:
    اتَّخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ أَرْبَابًا مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا أُمِرُوا إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُوا إِلَٰهًا وَاحِدًا لَّا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ سُبْحَانَهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

    They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilah (God - Allah) La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah). Praise and glory be to Allah, (far above is Allah) from having the partners they associate (with Allah)."

    Always read the entire surah instead of just one ayat to better understand the context
    Last edited by Shayan'M'; 05-23-2021 at 06:32 AM.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Shayan'M' View Post
    Addition as for Quran 9:29 the fight mentioned was held during the time of prophet Mohammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam when the non Muslims were trying to kill us all so we were commanded to fight back

    Its not fight a non Muslim all the time
    I couldn't help to notice that Quran 9:29 it's been understood to be about a battle.
    Specifically refers to the battle of Tabuk but as I understand there was no battle of Tabuk but an expedition of Tabuk.
    Did Allah send a revelation advicing Muslims how to react about something that never happened?
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    I couldn't help to notice that Quran 9:29 it's been understood to be about a battle.
    Specifically refers to the battle of Tabuk but as I understand there was no battle of Tabuk but an expedition of Tabuk.
    Did Allah send a revelation advicing Muslims how to react about something that never happened?
    Where did you read it refers specifically to the battle of Tabuk? Are you trying to play word games with us?

    It refers to the event that took place in Tabuk.
    A war was anounced...the Muslims marched to Tabuk to fight with the Romans
    When they arrived, they discovered that the Romans fled.
    They waited 20 days and returned home.

    So no battle took actually place.
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    Re: Fight only those who fight you

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    It refers to the event that took place in Tabuk.
    A war was anounced...the Muslims marched to Tabuk to fight with the Romans
    When they arrived, they discovered that the Romans fled.
    They waited 20 days and returned home.

    So no battle took actually place.
    You would be surprised how many times I was told that applied only to the battle of Tabuk and was also told that this revelation only applied to this specific battle and is not to be used otherwise.
    I was all this time under the believe that was the case until recently I read there was actually no battle of Tabuk and then all started to circle around my brain.
    Wait a minute, so there was no battle of Tabuk.
    But Allah (who is all knowing) knew there would be no battle of Tabuk. Am I right?
    So why send a revelation advicing Muslims to "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day,......"?
    It make no sense.
    Unless the revelation was not meant to be used only during the expedition of Tabuk.
    Anyway who are the scholars that came up with the idea this was only meant to this specific time?
    The Quran doesn't give any clue it is meant only at that specific time.
    Some people tell me there is no way Allah sent this revelation.
    Some even say this is a human made revelation.
    Some extremist scholars I'm sure are using this kind of revelation and giving Islam a bad name.
    It makes no sense.
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