Prove that the Qur'an is NOT the word of God.

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou

I am a kind and generous soul who likes to help and inform if possible.

Can't you tell?

Do I really need to answer this? If Yes, then No I cannot tell as you inform wrong.

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou

No you do not need to answer this. I am sorry you cannot tell, but where have I informed incorrectly? (You need to form a correct adverb by at least saying "you inform wrongly" but as that would be ugly and probably wrong, you should say "you inform incorrectly" - you see, I can't help myself!)

Yes I know u cannot help urself because u have nothing better to do!

I think that dating of the Koran is critical, if the Koran was not written at the time it was supposed to be, then how can it be right? I would like to see those reports I asked about? By the way, I know all about C14, there are lots of other dating methods as well.

I have questions of it's divinity, why are there so many passages about hewish people? I'm startin to kinda subconsciouly dislike jewish people. If I hear jewish or zionist I think of conspiracies and the crusades.

It's like to be Muslim you haveto believe that since the Crusades Jewish people have been building societies against Islam along with the FreeMason devil worshippers. That's why the Islamic Golden Era ended.

Now if that's not true than what's the reason for the fall of Islamic Golden Era? I can only think of conspiracies formed by jews and freemasons. Now thats racist, sorry, I meant Zionist. But in the Quran it goes on and on about jews and I fell into these zionist conspiracies (which actually fit into the whole scheme)

So I guess I'm asking is Allah talking about the Zionist in the Quran or was Mohammed just angry at the Jews around him? I hate to say this because I'm muslim but it sounds like Mohammed wrote it because of the way it's directed at certain groups... like if I was writing a book like that I would say stuff like don't be like them, because they're goin to hell.

But then I wouldn't know about those scientific miracle quotes so I guess Allah is pretty realistic but sometimes I have doubts of it's divinity.

What I'm starting to think is that Mohammed tapped into something and was divinely inspired with his behaviour but not everything was divine... which would make me kaffir, which is scary cuz I really dont wanna be in hell! But I have to submit sincerely so unless I'm sincere I wont do it.

My proof for it not being divine would be the use of so much fear, fear controls people better than anything else. Of course that argument is not really anything, but think about it... why should we be so afraid all the time? Shouldn't we love God not fear him? Thats why people flip out when people slander the prophet. If we all loved God instead of feared him we'd teach those ignorant people instead of flip out and try to murder them.

Now you might say we cant judge Islam by the actions of a few, but it's our job because if they claim to be Muslim then it's our responsibility as well. Just like American soldiers in Iraq that mess up, America has to do something. We gotta do something too for the brothers that are flippin out.

So please tell me why Allah has to scare the living stuffings out of everyone? Why can't we just love him instead? It seems that the main message is fear, not love. Which is a problem for me, but that doesn't refute it's divine authorship actually, just clarifies my personal issue.

format_quote Originally Posted by sargon

I have questions of it's divinity, why are there so many passages about hewish people? I'm startin to kinda subconsciouly dislike jewish people. If I hear jewish or zionist I think of conspiracies and the crusades.
lopskdplwo
It's like to be Muslim you haveto believe that since the Crusades Jewish people have been building societies against Islam along with the FreeMason devil worshippers. That's why the Islamic Golden Era ended.

God tells us he wants us to all love one another.

Now if that's not true than what's the reason for the fall of Islamic Golden Era? I can only think of conspiracies formed by jews and freemasons. Now thats racist, sorry, I meant Zionist. But in the Quran it goes on and on about jews and I fell into these zionist conspiracies (which actually fit into the whole scheme)

How does it go on and on about the Jews?
The Islamic Golden Era is going to return again.

So I guess I'm asking is Allah talking about the Zionist in the Quran or was Mohammed just angry at the Jews around him? I hate to say th is because I'm muslim but it sounds like Mohammed wrote it because of the way it's directed at certain groups... like if I was writing a book like that I would say stuff like don't be like them, because they're goin to hell.

All I can say is in the Bible it is a entirley different ending than the Korans ending...though God was very angry with the Jews...He does forgive them, and they will know what they did wrong. Off the top of my head, Ruth, Isaish, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zachariah the Prophet (not John the Baptists father) and Revelation all have God restoring Israel where he will dwell. He will bring all 12 tribes back home..a massive attack 10 nations from the North will give their power and authority to the beast... fighting against Israel from there on God will defend the Jews and Jesus will return.

My proof for it not being divine would be the use of so much fear, fear controls people better than anything else. Of course that argument is not really anything, but think about it... why should we be so afraid all the time?

Jesus said "don't fear those who can kill only the body; fear Him (i.e., God) who can destroy both body and soul in hell." Then is God cruel? tyrannical? On the contrary, Jesus adds immediately, "Two sparrows are sold for a penny. Yet God sees them and cares for them. How much more does God care for you. Why, God cares so much for you that even the hairs of your head are numbered."

Psa 112:1 Praise the LORD! Blessed is the man who fears the LORD, who greatly delights in his commandments!
Psa 112:2 His offspring will be mighty in the land; the generation of the upright will be blessed.
Psa 112:3 Wealth and riches are in his house, and his righteousness endures forever.

It isn't like a fear of a tryrant, to be scared all the time.....It more like you want to do good to please him, praise him and glorify our Holy God and father, in everyway I possible can. It is a personal relationship that I tell him of all my fears and my prayers for people. God has blessed my life so much.
and I know I could not have turned my life around without the Holy Spirit guiding me. My life now is one of peace and contentment and joy.

Before I was too busy with my everyday life to give God or Jesus a thought.
Now if I do something wrong...I feel so guilty and upset because I have hurt my heavenly Father .

So please tell me why Allah has to scare the living stuffings out of everyone? Why can't we just love him instead? It seems that the main message is fear, not love. Which is a problem for me, but that doesn't refute it's divine authorship actually, just clarifies my personal issue.

yes there is a fear of where people will end up...and I do get upset about that and pray to God for everyone...I don't know about the Koran but in the Bible we are told of predestination that God as already choosen the people who will be saved even before they where born. He knows who belong to him and who do not..It tells us if you are have been predestened then there is no way you cannot be saved and live in eternity with him..God would not allow it.

We should love God I believe thought if you don't fear him you can't love him...

In the name of Allah Most Gracious Most Mercifull
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.

To my fellow non-muslims May peace and blessing be upon you.

I have glanced through some of the posts in this thread, one particular that cought my attention was from nicole

Before I was too busy with my everyday life to give God or Jesus a thought.

You seem like a nice person, i hope to discuss on this matter - whether Jesus = God, i hope you dont mind? with an open mind ofcourse.

Before i leave i want to ask a quick question (to nicole), what happens if some one proves to you that Jesus is < God, and is a prophet?

take care

With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read).
(Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #59)

In the name of ALLAH Most Gracious Most Merciful

"With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read). "
(Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #59)


Hello sister sargon, i couldnt help noticing your post, i hope to answer some of your questions and Inshallah clear some of your doubts.

So I guess I'm asking is Allah talking about the Zionist in the Quran or was Mohammed just angry at the Jews around him? I hate to say this because I'm muslim but it sounds like Mohammed wrote it because of the way it's directed at certain groups... like if I was writing a book like that I would say stuff like don't be like them, because they're goin to hell.

Did Mohammad write the book, that’s a funny question, but I like your honesty and I should respect your doubts.

However lets analyse though, to proceed the Quran is not the prophet’s word, rather its God’s word, the Almighty’s word. It is impossible for the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to have written the Quran, or any other human being for that matter. If only you had read the entire Quran you would have understood.

I’ll try to explain it as briefly as possible, why the Quran is not the word of the Prophet (pbuh).

First, he was an illiterate!! How can an illiterate person come up with such a rich, poetic, intellectual, and inspiring text that it rocked the entire Arabia ?

Mohammad (pbuh) never went to school! No one taught him. He had no teacher of any kind in any subjects. How can he have the knowledge of all the science, astronomy, oceanography, etc that is contained in the Quran ? ( For example, the mention of ocean currents, stars, earth, moon, sun and their fixed paths in Soorah Rahman; and many other scientific statements that are found in Quran, that I cannot state in this short time)

When the Quran was revealed, the Arabic language was at its peak in richness, poetic value, literature, etc. Quran came and challenged the best literature in Arabic, the best poetry in Arabic of the time. Mohammad (pbuh) being illiterate couldn’t possibly have come up with something so immaculate that it even exceeded the best of poetry, and literature in Arabic at the time of the language's PEAK development. Arabic language had never been so rich in expression, poetic value, vocabulary, and variety in literature, as it was in the time of Quran. At a time like this, Quran came and exceeded the best of Arabic in all aspects of the language: poetry, literature, expression, etc. Any classical Arabic speaker would appreciate the unbeaten, unchallenged, and unmatched beauty of the language of Quran.
An illiterate man is simply not capable of writing such a book.
Mohammad (pbuh) had no reason to come up with something like Quran, and cause the entire society of Arabia to become his enemy. Why would he do something like that? Why would he write something going against almost all of the norms of the society, and lose his family, relatives, friends, and other loved ones , and not to mention all the wealth he lost ?
Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years! A very long time! Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of Arabic speech, as demonstrated in Quran, for over 23 years?

Also, what the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) used to say is recorded in what we call his hadeeth (sunnah). If we look at the Arabic style of the hadeeth, and compare it with the style of Quran, we can clearly see that they are clearly DIFFERENT and DISTINGUISHABLE Arabic styles. The prophet (pbuh) spoke in public. It does not make sense that a man has two UNIQUE, Distinguishable, and completely different styles of speech in public. Yet another reason why Mohammad (pbuh) couldn't possibly have written Quran.

About Mary
The following verse in the Quran:
"Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you - Chosen you above the women of all nations." Qur'an-3:42"
Chosen you above the women of all nations." Such an honour is not to be found given to Mary even in the Christian Bible ........... Knowing full-well, and believing as I do, that the whole Quran is the veritable Word of God, I will nevertheless agree, for the sake of argument, with you for a moment, that he wrote it. We can now expect some cooperation from you.
I ask you, "Have you any qualms in agreeing that Muhammad (pbuh) was an Arab?" Only an opinionated fool will hesitate to agree. In that case there is no sense in pursuing any discussion.
With the man of reason, I proceed. "That this Arab, in the first instance, was addressing other Arabs. He was not talking to Indian Muslims, Chinese Muslims, or Nigerian Muslims. He was addressing his own people - the Arabs. Whether they agreed with him or not, he told them in the most sublime form - words that were seared into the hearts and minds of his listeners that Mary the mother of Jesus -A JEWESS- was chosen above the women of all nations. Not his own mother, nor his wife nor his daughter, nor any other Arab woman, but a Jewess! Can one explain this? Because to everyone his own mother or wife, or daughter would come before other women.
Why would the Prophet of Islam honour a woman from his opposition! and a Jewess at that! Belonging to a race which had been looking down upon his people for three thousand years?.

Sarah and Hagar
From the Bible the Jews are told their father, Abraham, had two wives -Sarah and Hagar. They say that they are the children of Abraham through Sarah, his legitimate wife; that their Arab brethren have descended through Hagar, a "bondwoman", and that as such, the Arabs are inferior breed.

Will anyone please explain the anomaly as to why Muhammed (pbuh) (if he is the author) chose this Jewess for such honour? The answer is simple – he had no choice - he had no right to speak of his own desire. "IT IS NO LESS THAN AN INSPIRATION SENT DOWN TO HIM." (Qur'an, 53:4).
Sura Maryam
There is a Chapter in the Holy Quran, named Sura Maryam "Chapter Mary" (XIX) named in honour of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ (pbuh); again, such an honour is not to be found given to Mary in the Christian Bible. Out of the 66 books of the Protestants and 73 of the Roman Catholics, not one is named after Mary or her son. You will find books named after Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, but not a single one is that of Jesus or Mary

If Muhammed (pbuh) was the author of the Holy Quran, then he would not have failed to include in it with MARYAM, the mother of Jesus, his own mother - AMINA, his dear wife - KHADIJA, or his beloved daughter - FATIMA.

Finally, if the Quran was from Muhammad (pbuh), and we know humans make mistakes, then surely out of the 600 pages, and 114 chapters the author of the book would have made a mistake some where along the line. But the Quran is flawless, hence it is from God.
ALLAH CHALLENGES:
Chapter 2, Verses 23
"And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to our servant, Then produce a Chapter like thereunto; And call your witnesses or helpers besides Allah, If you are true."(2: 23.)

I hope this has helped you sister.

moving to your next Question.

So please tell me why Allah has to scare the living stuffings out of everyone? Why can't we just love him instead? It seems that the main message is fear, not love. Which is a problem for me, but that doesn't refute it's divine authorship actually, just clarifies my personal issue.

If Allah forgives all and punishes none, who will obey him?
If Allah (swt) forgives each and every human being and punishes no one, then why should the human beings obey the command of Allah (swt)? This world would become hell to live in. If all human beings are going to go to heaven then what is the purpose and use of the human beings to come to this world, this life cannot be called a test for the hereafter.

If you are a sincere and true believer then why should Allah scare the living stuffing’s out of you? Allah doesn’t scare everyone, why are you saying everyone?
Allah is scaring those who commit evil; don’t you think that’s good? Don’t you think Allah ought to tell the wrong doers where they will end up if they commit evil actions, i.e. commit murder, rape, oppression etc.
However even to the evil doers Allah always shows his infinite mercy, have you noticed in numerous Sura in the Quran after scaring the evil doers, Allah follows up with “…and Allah is all-forgiving all merciful…”, to show his love for those who repent sincerely and turn back to Allah.

Man's love for Allah is all about striving hard to uphold His Deen and obedience to Him, His Messenger or any system or authority that implements His Rule. In return, Allah's love for man is about being Gracious and Beneficent to man and providing him protection from the harmful consequences of his shortcomings or inadvertent mistakes [See, 3:31-32, 5:54, 9:24]. In the Quran, various types of people are mentioned whom Allah LOVES, i.e. who get blessed with His special grace, beneficence and protection.

Allah loves Muhsineen [2:195, 3:134, 3:148, 5:13, 5:93] [Those who do good (to others); who spend (benevolently) in the cause of Allah (2:195) in favorable as well as in adverse circumstances; who divert and sublimate their anger and potentially virulent emotions to creative energy and become a source of tranquility and comfort to people; who quickly correct any wrong or indecency that has occurred from them, remember Allah, protect themselves from trailing behind in dignity and refrain from willfully persisting in error. [3:134-135]; who pardon and forbear [5:13]; who do not spread corruption on earth [7:56]; who strive hard for Him [29:69]; who establish As-Salaat [remembering Him (20:14, 62:9) all the time (70:23) and at appointed times (4:103, 62:9), and follow His Guidance in all the affairs] and keep the resources, that He has bestowed upon them, open [for the welfare of humanity]. (2:177, 9:44, 39:33, 92:17-20) [31:3-4]; who are the believing servants of Allah [37:110-111, 37:121-122, 37:131-132]; who sleep but little at night (reflecting on His Commands and on ways to implement His Commands) and heartily seek to be guarded against imperfections (51:16-18)].

Allah loves Tawwabeen [2:222][Those who turn to rightfulness and recourse much to Him and His Guidance]

Allah loves Mutahhareen [2:222, 9:108] [Those who keep their bodies free from filth, minds distant from dirty thoughts and conduct clean from unseemly acts]

Allah loves Muttaqeen [3:76, 9:4, 9:7] [Those who guard themselves against evil and preserve themselves from the inevitable harmful consequences for violating Allah's Commands by carefully abiding by His Guidance, not exceeding His Prescribed Limits and not deviating or departing from His Right Path; those who render service and obedience to Him alone (2:21) and observe the prescribed abstinence (2:183-187); those who believe in Him, Divine Books, Aakhrat, Malaika, Prophets, and in the existence of the Unseen, that which is beyond the reach of human perception (by the senses) {Allah (21:49, 35:18, 36:11, 50:33, 67:12), Al-Saa’at (16:77, 32:5-6, 34:3, 72:25-26) when every person will get the recompense for that which he strives (20:15), the day of resurrection (27:65-66) and the everlasting paradise (19:61)}(2:3-4, 2:177); those who establish As-Salaat [remembering Him (20:14, 62:9) all the time (70:23) and at appointed times (4:103, 62:9), and follow His Guidance in all the affairs] and keep the resources, that He has bestowed upon them, open [for the welfare of humanity]. (2:177, 9:44, 39:33, 92:17-20) [31:3-4]; those who give from their wealth to family and relatives, orphans, widows to those left helpless in the society, to those whose hard-earned income fails to meet their basic needs, to those whose running businesses have stalled, to those who have lost their jobs, to the one whose life has stalled for any reason, to the disabled, the needy wayfarer, son of the street, the homeless, the one who travels to them for assistance, to those who ask for help, and to those whose necks are burdened with any kind of bondage, oppression, crushing debts and extreme hardship of labour [2:177]; those who spend their wealth for their own tazkiya or personal development and not for favour from anyone to be paid back [92:17-20]; those who are true to their promises and covenants whenever they make a promise or covenant [2:177, 8:56, 9:4, 9:7]; those who remain steadfast in physical or emotional distress and in times of peril [2:177]; those who avoid great sins and fawahish (yet not ascribe purity to themselves) [53:32]; those who promote the truth and believe therein [39:33]; those who remember Allah immediately, when approached by devil [7:201]; those who strive in the way of Allah by their wealth and lives [9:44]; and those who will be in the pure state when Angels come to take their lives [16:31-32]

Allah loves Sabireen [3:146][Those who have capacity to endure hardship, difficulty, or inconvenience with calmness and self-control; those who can exhibit tolerance and restraint in the face of provocation; those who have calm and tranquil state of mind; those who can exhibit composure, equanimity, self-constraint, self-control, steadfastness, determination, perseverance and endurance; those who steadily adhere to the statutes of Quran; those who maintain constancy with Allah; those who show patience, endurance, equanimity and adherence to the Laws of Allah in harm, injury, mischief damage, poverty, bodily affliction, distress, lack of means of subsistence, misfortune, calamity, fear, hunger, a state of pressing want, loss of money, loss of life or loss of fruits of their toil (2:177, 2:155, 22:35); those who show patience and endurance in the face of rejection (6:34); those who show equanimity and composure when people make them a laughing stock for their True convictions (23:110-111); those who show steadfastness and perseverance in seeking their Lord’s Countenance (13:22); those who show equanimity and adherence to Allah’s laws when wealth, fortune, plenty or ease comes after poverty, misfortune, scarcity, or hardship (11:9-10); those who show patience, calm and tranquillity of mind while waiting for Allah’s judgement and the results of their actions (7:87); and those who show self-constraint and self-control in sexual matters (4:25)]

Allah loves Mutawakkileen [3:159] [Those who put their trust in Allah and His Laws after seeking His Guidance, deliberation, consultation, decision making, resolution and determination]
Allah loves Muqsiteen [5:42, 49:9, 60:8][Those who act equitably and justly, and judge and make reconciliation among people with equity, fairness and justice]

Allah loves those who fight in His way against tyranny, injustice, wrongdoings, aggression and transgression, [61:4]

I hope my post hase helped you sister Sargon, take care may Allah guide you and strengthen your faith (ameen).



"Say: If the sea were ink for the words of my Lord, the sea would surely be consumed before the words of my Lord are exhausted, though We were to bring the like of that (sea) to add "
(Al-Kahf, Chapter #18, Verse #109)

You seem like a nice person, i hope to discuss on this matter - whether Jesus = God, i hope you dont mind? with an open mind ofcourse.

Thankyou...I try...


I would welcome any debate

Before i leave i want to ask a quick question (to nicole), what happens if some one proves to you that Jesus is < God, and is a prophet?

take care

I believe that Jesus is the word of God, God turned his word into flesh(Jesus)...so God knowing everything would also make Gods (word, a prophet also) and also the Holy Spirit...it is He who gives us revelations...to the future...
The only difference between Jesus and the Father, from what Jesus tells us in the Bible...is that only God knows exactly when his Kingdom will come here on earth..the hour and day is discided by God.
I believe Jesus will know being the word when God speaks it...because Jesus is just that 'the word'

Hi Nicole-

I have responded to John 1:1

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

If you believe the third part of this verse "and the word was God" to be the definite form of God (Hotheos), it causes a problem!

with respect to
2nd Corinthians 4:4- Satan would be God
and Exodus 7:1- Moses would be God

since this thread is about the Holy Quran and its authenticity i would appreciate any response or refutation to John 1:1 in the other thread, titled Personal Encounters with God!

Kind Regards

Qurban

Only a fool would think that there is a contradiction here

Thats the first sensible thing you have put forward !

Hi HeiGou-

Say: "Nay! but I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah (in Islam), and be not thou of the company of those who join gods with Allah.

Yes the First from his ummah!

And Moses (PBUH) first from his!

Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid

ok now find one sentence which negates the other (contradicts) and u will have proven its not Gods word.

Easy right? WELL DO IT!

What about abrogated verses? Don't later abrogating verses negate earlier ones?

Peace