there was a challenge in another thread to prove the qur'an is not the word of god, but it put the burden of proof on the wrong person. the burden of proof is upon you to prove something, not on someone else to disprove. a defendent doesn't have the burden of proof the prosecuter does. therefore, i challenge you to prove the qur'an is the word of god.
I suppose you'd call me biased, but I wouldn't even call any of these articles proofs, since they attempt to persuade the reader of something that is unprovable.
I think one has to decide what it suitable proof, or to be more precise, what is suitable evidence, before they can proceed to analyze the evidence. I have presented a list of evidence in this thread, the topic currently being discussed is word repetitions in the Qur'an.
Peace
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
I suppose you'd call me biased, but I wouldn't even call any of these articles proofs, since they attempt to persuade the reader of something that is unprovable.
Well that's your personal opinion...i dunno what is your definition of proof is then ...u haven't even looked at those links yet i guess...
as i told you earlier....your Creator has warned you of a painful punishment in the afterlife...none but you are solely responsible for it!
If you die as a disbeliever...your abode will be the Hell fire forever...
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
If any genuine proof of the existence of god were to be found, then everyone would believe in god; if any proof of the non-existence of god were found, then everyone would have that view.
again you are wrong...the signs of God's existence is for the men of understanding....
and by the way the 'athiests' also worship 'their god'....dont tell me that you dont worship anything...
the things that you worship are
your desires,money, sex, comfort...and so on...not caring about what your Creators Laws have to say about it...
this is the real test my friend!
you believe in the UNSEEN MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE...THE ONE TO WHOM EVERYTHING BELONGS..AND THUS APPRECIATE AND RECOGNIZE HIS GREATNESS...
otherwise there is no compulsion in religion as the Glorious Qur'an says in one of its verses..
you are choosing your own fate in the afterlife...either burn in fire forever or
live a peaceful life forever!
and if you ask me why and what makes us think that we will be born again?
well..heres the answer-- what made you create and come into existence in the first place--????? were you not something which was nothing to be remembered 100 years ago??? what were you my friend before you were born?? if you could answer this to me...i would really appreciate your intelligence
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
It's quite silly the way Muslims keep on using the word 'proof' to describe articles such as this because they are plainly no such thing.
If a Man in Arabia 1400 years ago Is revealed A Poetic Literature that at that time was Considered and today considered the Most Highest Elequency of Arabic and Literature that no one today not even English scholars can translate exactly Also in which, Modern science has had established scientific facts, That has been Proposed in the Quran 1400 years ago at a time of arrogancy and Idiol worshipping. Also where science was completely lost in that part of Arabia. If you dont agree with such a Glorious book that outlines all properties of life to Military to Peaceful approaches,also a Glorious Book that all of Arabic developed and derived from it. What will it take?
salaam.....im sorry about that, but it works fine on my comp.....and i tried it at work too.....it has flash intro so maybe thats why it doesnt work on your comphttp://www.-----------------------/film.html
still not working
if the site require anything
it should give msg:X
unless how can user use properly
anyway
jajakAllaah onece again to u and other
The miracle of Quran have been discovering by the billions (scholar, muslim, researcher etc etc) for 1400 yrs
amaging thing is that still people r amazed by its (Holly Quran) miracle & InsAllaah it will amzed people (belever & nonbeleiver) TILL THE WORLD EXITS
no dough whatsoever!!
AL-MUSALAT, VERSE 50: Then in what statement after this (THE QUR'AN) will they believe?
"And if you are in doubt about what We have revealed (the Quran) to Our worshiper (Muhammad ), then produce a chapter like it, and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah if you are truthful. And if you do not do it, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones. It has been prepared for disbelievers. And give good news (O Muhammad) to those who believe and do good deeds, that for them are gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow.... " ( Quran, 2:23-25)
So, If u have any doubt about Quran Why don't u clear it out! God has challenged you! Produce even one chapter of the Quran! You never can and you never will!!!!
Ever since the Quran was revealed, fourteen centuries ago, until this day, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like the chapters of the Quran in their beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislation, true information, true prophecy, and other perfect attributes of the Quran. Also note that the smallest chapter in the Quran (Chapter 108) is only ten words, yet no one has ever been able to meet this challenge, then or today. Some of the disbelieving Arabs who were enemies of the Prophet Muhammad tried to meet this challenge to prove that Muhammad was not a true prophet, but they failed to do so. This failure was despite the fact that the Quran was revealed in their own language and dialect, and that the Arabs at the time of Muhammad were a very eloquent people who use to compose beautiful and excellent poetry, still read and appreciated today.
Do not forget that you are running the same risk to end up in hell. In the Christian view you are doomed if you do not accept Jesus as God and your saviour.
produce your proof if you speak the truth!
it has been prooven by christian scholars themselves that Jesus was not God
make up your mind ppl.?? half the christians i talk to say jesus is god and the other half opposes that ideology...i mean atleast get to know who your god is before you die!
I suppose you'd call me biased, but I wouldn't even call any of these articles proofs, since they attempt to persuade the reader of something that is unprovable.
If any genuine proof of the existence of god were to be found, then everyone would believe in god; if any proof of the non-existence of god were found, then everyone would have that view.
It's quite silly the way Muslims keep on using the word 'proof' to describe articles such as this because they are plainly no such thing.
Peace
May Allah guide you to the straight path.
Firstly on the concept of proof, logic, science and the common perception of purpose. In your understanding, you fail to see that your idea of proof is confined to what you desire that should be or not. As much of a stupid thing it would be for me to first try to figure out whether or not you exist, before answering your question. In the very same way; you are given guidance by Allah, you choose to believe or to disbelieve. It is but a mere sense of justifying your own desires through the rejection of His existence.
...u haven't even looked at those links yet i guess...
What gives you that idea? Of course I have.
as i told you earlier....your Creator has warned you of a painful punishment in the afterlife...none but you are solely responsible for it!
If you die as a disbeliever...your abode will be the Hell fire forever...
Well, thank you. Trying to frighten me into believing is sure to work.
again you are wrong...the signs of God's existence is for the men of understanding....
So now I'm stupid. Great! Your arguments get better and better.
and by the way the 'athiests' also worship 'their god'....dont tell me that you dont worship anything...
I don't worship anything unobservable that rules my life...
the things that you worship are
your desires,money, sex, comfort...and so on...
No, I worship art, literature, music and learning. Please don't assume you know what I think.
you believe in the UNSEEN MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE...THE ONE TO WHOM EVERYTHING BELONGS..AND THUS APPRECIATE AND RECOGNIZE HIS GREATNESS...
Um, what? You do know I'm an atheist, right?
otherwise there is no compulsion in religion as the Glorious Qur'an says in one of its verses..
Apart from you trying to frighten me, insulting me and telling me what I think and believe, it seems.
you are choosing your own fate in the afterlife...either burn in fire forever or
live a peaceful life forever!
Generally, I'd say most atheists don't believe in the afterlife, so it's not that much of a worry.
and if you ask me why and what makes us think that we will be born again?
well..heres the answer-- what made you create and come into existence in the first place--?????
What made me create what?
My parents caused me to come into existence.
were you not something which was nothing to be remembered 100 years ago???what were you my friend before you were born?? if you could answer this to me...i would really appreciate your intelligence
A foetus, a zygote, a sperm and an egg, and before that nothing but the genetic code that has existed within my ancestors through the millenia.
you dont make any sense...im sorry
Hopefully I've made things a bit clearer now.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
Firstly on the concept of proof, logic, science and the common perception of purpose. In your understanding, you fail to see that your idea of proof is confined to what you desire that should be or not.
See the definitions in the links given above - I didn't write them.
As much of a stupid thing it would be for me to first try to figure out whether or not you exist, before answering your question.
What would that have to do with anything and why would it be stupid? It's an important philosophical question.
In the very same way; you are given guidance by Allah, you choose to believe or to disbelieve.
Don't forget: you believe it's from Allah; I don't believe Allah even exists.
It is but a mere sense of justifying your own desires through the rejection of His existence.
Why do I find it more desirable that Allah doesn't exist? How do you know what my desires are?
As a Muslim, I believe Allah exists. However, as the Qur'an asks man to ponder over creation, what specific arguments or conclusive evidence could you suggest in explicitly proving with irrefutable proof that:
The Qur'an is the word of god.
That God exists.
To prove that the Qur’an is the Word of Allah, you do not have to indulge into futile discussions or philosophical dialect. You have at your disposal a “living material evidence,” the Qur’an itself. Starting with the null hypothesis, i.e., assuming that the Qur’an is not the word of God, one should ask himself: could a human being in the seventh century write such a book? Or does there exist—up till today—any book that is claimed to match the Qur’an?
Let us examine the Qur’an more closely. Starting with the content, could the knowledge therein have been within the reach of any human source, i.e., the Prophet Muhammad, his contemporaries, or the whole human civilization and for several centuries ahead? How could a book revealed at that point of history refer —in precise terms—to scientific phenomena and historical events—prior and subsequent—that were unknown or misunderstood before their subsequent verification?
These Qur’anic references cover such wide spectrum of topics as the nature of space, relativity of time, the shape and motion of the earth, the role of mountains, water for life, the water cycle, the sources of rivers and groundwater, sea depths, embryology, hygiene and proper health practices, prophecies fulfilled (after revelation), etc.
As to the form of the Qur’an—i.e., linguistic and literary features—any strict comparative analysis identifies the Qur’an to be not only superior to any other text—preceding or following, including the sayings of the Prophet himself, who received and delivered the revelation—but also to be a perfect, flawless and the most eloquent composition. This perfection can be witnessed and proved on the levels of the individual words (semantics), sentence (grammar and rhetoric), and whole surahs (chapters).
Thorough examination of the Qur’an shows that each of these elements was selected and phrased in the most appropriate manner to fulfill the most precise meaning and most effective impact, whether cognitive, psychological, passionate, or phonic, on the reader or listener. The Qur’an challenges mankind, Arabs and non-Arabs, to the end of time, to produce anything like or compared to itself. And so it is proved.
All that said can in itself be enough to answer your second question as to the existence of Allah Almighty. If the Qur’an is the true undisputed word of Allah, then it follows that whatever is in it is the absolute unquestionable truth.
Over the millennia, philosophers’ attempts to agree, through abstract arguments alone, on the existence of God, His attributes, and the way He interacts with His creatures, have all been futile. The human mind can only observe, measure, compare, correlate, and hence theorize, within the limited capacities created in Man, and no more.
Our senses have limits. For example, we can see only those bodies emanating light in the wavelength range of 0.4 to 0.7 microns, and can hear only those sounds in the frequency range of 2500 to 4000 cycle per second. In time and space our perception is limited by the velocity of light, since the visible universe is so wide as to be measured in billions of light years. This means that what we will ever see—however advanced our technology is—are only images from the far-deep past. Also, what we can see is essentially no more than an extremely minute fraction of the real existence.
We can know Allah as the Creator and Sustainer of this universe through His detectable creation. The harmonious “intelligent” physical systems in our bodies and other biological species (plant or animal), in matter in general (viewed at the sub-atomic or cosmic levels) boldly manifest the purposeful design, endless diversity, and sustainable precise running of all these systems. Allah only is the One God Who can consistently create and sustain such a marvelous, harmonious universe like this. Praise be to Him!
Abstract philosophical thinking alone could never and can never conclusively prove or disprove the presence and attributes of God. Proving the existence of God is and should always be beyond the reach of human philosophy. Philosophy cannot—in itself—produce or create knowledge, but only through concrete observations together with sensible percepts can it offer any sound conclusion.
REASON FOR THE MIRACLE OF QURAN
Verse 74:31 gives five reasons for the miracle of the Quran with number 19 as the common denominator.
1. To disturb the disbelievers.
2. To convince the Christians and the Jews (that this is divine scripture).
3. To strengthen the faith of the faithful.
4. To remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers; and
5. To expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; who will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" (or "So What?").
What do you mean when you say the New testament is 'followed' ? What religious practices/laws/directives are given in the New Testament?
In terms of people calling it their holy book.
It may not have as many directives, but I think the idea is that you are to follow Jesus' example.
And the directives of the Qu'ran aren't being followed very good either, it seems... Whenever anyone points out cruel actions performed in the name of allah, you say they have misunderstood the koran(and thus the laws)...
(by the way what is most correct; Qu'ran or koran?)
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I agree that numbers do not determine what is right or wrong, but the issue here is the distinction of the Qur'an over other books, so it is not irrelevant. The challenge is simple - what other book has been taken by people as the constitution of their lives? And I'm not speaking about the legislation of a country, but an actual body of guidance for every aspect in one's life.
The new testament. Although the new testament is far more liberal, has fewer rules etc. it is taken as a guide by alot of people.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
As I said before, the legitimate differences are minor; the differences you're speaking of are resulting from ignorance on what the Qur'an says, and the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, not any ambiguity in them.
Pardon me? Isn't the koran the most memorized book in the world?
How come so many are ignorant of it's clear message? And doesn't the mullahs know what the koran says?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Comprehensive is not the same as long. By comprehensive I mean that the Qur'an provides us with guidance in every aspect of our lives.
OK. Here's a book that I think offers a much better and much more comprehensive, not to say logical, guide: The childrens book "cardamom town". In cardamom town, the chief constable (only constable in town) says that
"Man skal ikke skade andre,
man skal være grei og snill,
og forøvrig kan man gjøre som man vil."
Which means(roughly):
"You shall not hurt others, you shall be kind and nice[to people] and besides you can do whatever you want to"
Indeed a better guide!
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I'm not talking about arabs. I'm talking about Muslims, whether they be as far apart as Indonesia and Morrocco - the fact is that the Qur'an is the only book which is memorized so widely and so easily.
OK, muslem culture then. The religion/culture of islam emphazises memorization.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
No, the knowledge is not hidden, anyone may purchase the book, but you have to make an effort. For online links on the Qur'an's preservation, there is some material available here: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/
It is a custom on the internet that people hall do an effort to understand the other persons view, even read the links he bring up, yes. This is good.
However, there is no forum I've been to where there is custom to demand that the other person shall spend money at a book the other person wants him to read... Not to mention that the book is not even in my native language. Demanding that the other person shall read a book, even if it si on internet, is also kinda unusual(and unpractical, for obvious reasons).
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Let's say that there's equally many cats as there is dogs. Then let's say that the prophet mentioned "cats" twice as many times as he mentioned "dogs". Is this a disproof of his divinity?
Muslims do not believe the Prophet is divine!!
Nitpicking...
OK, I stand corrected, but I think you understood my point, I think. Is it possible to disprove the koran using word repetitions? Is there any set of rules that you can apply to check a word repetition's validity?
These were pretty unimpressive... "7 heavens" are mentioned 7 times, OK... But what about "72 virgins"? And the word "dogs" may be mentioned the same number as the number of unbelieving nations, but are the word "dogs" mentioned in the same proportion to the word "rats" as there are rats in the world? Can any word repetition be used to disprove the koran?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The Qur'an has not prescribed a punishment for blasphemers in an Islamic state, so this has nothing to do with the Qur'an's clarity. The issue here depends on the circumstances.
I said, not punish blasphemy at all. This implies anywhere, anytime. So it does have something to do with the clarity.
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
Herostratos,
Thanks for coming to the fight! And you even quoted me in one post! I feel really proud.
Hello,
and thanks for fighting urself :P although I don't like to speak of it as a fight, it has a tendency to polarize the positions (even more)
Sorry for replying so late, but I had one mean week....
format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar
I am sure you and I might disagree on many things (as it is normal among people who think freely)
Oh, you bet on it. As a libertarian atheist, not to mention blatantly politically incorrect, I usually disagree with almost everyone :=) But lets focus on what we agree upon now....
Originally Posted by lyesh View Original
"And if you are in doubt about what We have revealed (the Quran) to Our worshiper (Muhammad ), then produce a chapter like it, and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah if you are truthful. And if you do not do it, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones. It has been prepared for disbelievers. And give good news (O Muhammad) to those who believe and do good deeds, that for them are gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow.... " ( Quran, 2:23-25)
So, If u have any doubt about Quran Why don't u clear it out! God has challenged you! Produce even one chapter of the Quran! You never can and you never will!!!!
Ever since the Quran was revealed, fourteen centuries ago, until this day, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like the chapters of the Quran in their beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislation, true information, true prophecy, and other perfect attributes of the Quran. Also note that the smallest chapter in the Quran (Chapter 108) is only ten words, yet no one has ever been able to meet this challenge, then or today. Some of the disbelieving Arabs who were enemies of the Prophet Muhammad tried to meet this challenge to prove that Muhammad was not a true prophet, but they failed to do so. This failure was despite the fact that the Quran was revealed in their own language and dialect, and that the Arabs at the time of Muhammad were a very eloquent people who use to compose beautiful and excellent poetry, still read and appreciated today.
Please answer this one!
On what objective criterias shall the text be judged?
(in case you did not know, an objective criteria is close to impossible to find in order to judge what is "beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislation,"
And certainly you would never find a Christian trying to prove his belief by counting words in the Bible.
Because the Bible simply isn't miraculous like the Qur'an.
Never say never :P I have to disagree here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Panin.
However, this means Ansar should answer to all of the numerogical miracles in the bible...
In terms of people calling it their holy book.
It may not have as many directives, but I think the idea is that you are to follow Jesus' example.
As I pointed out earlier, I'm not talking about the numbers of people who recognize the New Testament, or other scriptures as their 'holy book'. I'm speaking of those people who take [or desire/attempt to take] the Qur'anic guidance and directives as the consitution upon which they construct their lives. The 'example' of Jesus is not comparable. "Be good to people" ?
And the directives of the Qu'ran aren't being followed very good either, it seems... Whenever anyone points out cruel actions performed in the name of allah, you say they have misunderstood the koran(and thus the laws)...
Of course I'm not denying the fact that many Muslims are not practing Islam properly and are ignorant of many of its teachings. I never intended to take numbers as proof from the start. If you look at the original point, it was that the Qur'an was universal, and this is illustrated by the fact that it has been accepted as the system by which to regulate one's life, by people of all different enthnicities and cultures. Notice I say system, i.e. a set of directives and guidance. Not just, "accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour".
(by the way what is most correct; Qu'ran or koran?)
The most accurate transliteration of the arabic word would be Qur'ân or Qur'aan, or the most commonly used: Qur'an.
The new testament. Although the new testament is far more liberal, has fewer rules etc. it is taken as a guide by alot of people.
As I pointed out before, the New Testament is not a system of directives and regulations by which to conduct one's life.
Pardon me? Isn't the koran the most memorized book in the world?
How come so many are ignorant of it's clear message?
Most Huffadh (people who have memorized the entire Qur'an) understand its message, and are therefore not ignorant. But many Muslims who have memorized a handful of Surahs have not studied Islam at an academic level, and that is why they are ignorant of many of its teachings. They just take what they hear from one place, and what they read in another, and then they formulate their whole conclusions and ideas based on that without studying it in context and looking at other relevant details.
And doesn't the mullahs know what the koran says?
First, which 'mullahs' are you talking about? Second, one does not become an Islamic scholar simply after memorizing surahs from the Qur'an. They need to study the hadith and the principles of islamic jurisprudence as well as other islamic sciences, in order to find all the relevant information before drawing their conclusions.
OK. Here's a book that I think offers a much better and much more comprehensive, not to say logical, guide: The childrens book "cardamom town". In cardamom town, the chief constable (only constable in town) says that
"Man skal ikke skade andre,
man skal være grei og snill,
og forøvrig kan man gjøre som man vil."
Which means(roughly):
"You shall not hurt others, you shall be kind and nice[to people] and besides you can do whatever you want to"
Indeed a better guide!
You claimed that this is a) much better and b) much more comprehensive.
As for a), then the following passages of the Qur'an are far superior in giving this kind of moral guidance:
The Qur'an tells us to be good to those who are bad to us, to show love to even the hateful, and if we do this, we will find our enemies transform into good friends: 41:34 Not equal are the good deed and the evil deed. Repel the evil deed with one that is good, and behold, the one between whom and thyself was enmity will become a close, compassionate friend.
The Qur'an tells us to swallow our anger and show kindness and be forgiving to all humanity: 3:133-1344 March forth in the way (which leads to) forgiveness from your Lord, and for Paradise as vast as the heavens and the earth, prepared for the pious. Those who spend [in Allah's cause] in prosperity and in adversity, who repress anger, and who are forgiving toward mankind; verily, Allah loves the virtuous.
The Qur'an commands Muslims to respond peacefully to the ignorant who abuse them or address them in a foul manner: 25:63 And the true servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk the earth with humility and when the ill-mannered address them they respond with words of peace and gentleness.
I could quote more verses but I think I've illustrated my point.
Your second point b) is also inaccurate, for you have only provided an example of very general moral instruction. There is no mention in your example of a code of morals one should seek to adhere to, much less direction in other spheres of life such as spiritual, mental, societal, economic, political, environmental, etc.
OK, muslem culture then. The religion/culture of islam emphazises memorization.
First, there's not a culture you can identify here. Secondly, yes the religion of Islam emphasizes education, studying, memorizing, exploring, inquiring, analysing, and implementing, but that doesn't change my point. The Qur'an fits in one's mind like a key in a lock.
However, there is no forum I've been to where there is custom to demand that the other person shall spend money at a book the other person wants him to read...
I assume that I am conversing with objective researchers who are willing to spend the time and resources in order to engage in a more advanced and sophisticated discussion of the evidence. I assume that I am not conversing with someone who has no serious desire to study the material and simply wants to argue their opinion. Nevertheless, I did provide links, so I don't see what there is to complain about. If you seriously wish to learn the material then I've referred you to the best source on the topic.
Not to mention that the book is not even in my native language.
Out of curiosity, what is your native language?
Is it possible to disprove the koran using word repetitions? Is there any set of rules that you can apply to check a word repetition's validity?
Sure. Look up the references I provide and see if they are correct. Or find if there are other mentions of the word that are not included in the count.
Now that we've come to the topic of word repetitions, I thought I should probably direct your attention to a MAJOR one that has been confirmed by myself recently: http://www.islamicboard.com/198655-post20.html
Mention of Dunya (life of this world) = 115 times
Mentions of Aakhirah (next life) = 115 times
With such a big number there is no way this could be a coincidence!
But what about "72 virgins"?
"72 virgins" are not mentioned in the Qur'an! I strongly suggest you familiarize yourself with the Qur'an's content before attempting to challenge its divine authorship! How can you claim to be an objective researcher if you do not do so?
And the word "dogs" may be mentioned the same number as the number of unbelieving nations, but are the word "dogs" mentioned in the same proportion to the word "rats" as there are rats in the world?
Where in the Qur'an does it say that the likeness/similtude of a dog is that of a rat?! The numerical miralce I pointed out makes sense because the Qur'an says that the likeness of a disbeliving nation is that of a dog.
Can any word repetition be used to disprove the koran?
You can try to disprove word repetitions, but it doesn't make sense to use word repetitions to disprove the Qur'an, since they are inherently either evidence in favour of a scripture or neutral.
I said, not punish blasphemy at all. This implies anywhere, anytime. So it does have something to do with the clarity.
I just told you that it isn't in the Qur'an, and you say that the Qur'an has a lack of clarity! Punishment of blasphemy is an issue explored in the hadith, so it has nothing to do with the clarity of the Qur'an.
although I don't like to speak of it as a fight, it has a tendency to polarize the positions (even more)
I would agree. We may get into heated discussions sometimes, but we're not fighting, we are (or are at least trying to) maintain an objective intellectual discussion to determine the truth.
Hello! Thanks for you reply. Sure, lets focus on what we agree on, such as the use of normal human reason as a way to discover the truth. Great to have you here.
First i like to Appreciate for the post of bro Ansar Al-'Adl.
To all who believe Qur'an is not the word of God In the name of Allaah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
IF u does not believe in Qur’an Then u do not believe Prophet Mohammed (pubh) as a Prophet as well... Is not it?
Then I have a Question
Q1: Do u believe God had send lot of Prophets (Massager of God) as a human to a various nations?
If ans is no… no need for further discuss
If answer is yes then
Q2: Why did God send so many?
I do not know what ur ans would be
God or any creator wants his creation should act according to his law…. Doesn’t it true?
God give Massage to nations by his Massagers (Prophet).
A Prophet’s job is to restore God’s law, fight against the dark law, tell his nation thing what God had forbidden and bad. And tell the people what he is commanded to tell and set an example in his life in order to be followed by others.
So God Sent Prophets to gave knowledge to the human being about all the thing (How should human lead his life, about the forbidden and allowed thing, true, false, bad, good, dark, light, nature, science etc).
But People changed the law of God after the death of Prophet and established their law…..why?...Bcoz it is the Satan (Evil) don’t want human to follow God law. He (Satan) convinces people to create confusion, close their open mind (etc, etc) and make them to change the law which is from God and make them to worship human or other thing (what is made by human but none) instead of God.
Then God Sent Prophets again with a better vision of his massage to restore the light and destroy the dark.
Thus God had being giving Massage to various Massagers to various nations.
God updated his law (better vision of His law) to the next Prophet and God had been continuing to do it until it is Completed or not needed.
So it is very clear that it is an act of nonsense to lead ur life according to the book of God (early version) which is changed by human (there is do doubt, there r so many contradictions, so many example to give, also there so many rabbis thing that God can not told in his Book (i.e. pornography, X related or something totally false (i.e. earth is flat or it is like egg shape etc) or can not honor any person who is bad.))
Even thou people do not understand. They say we r believe what is come to me by my father, forefather…. (They simply don’t want to open their mind)
I call them poorest people on earth (bcoz they sacrifice, fight and lead their life for nothing).
U has to do what ever God says
But wonder is that is He says any dark thing to u or any thing what is not good at all or any thing what has no based at all?...Never.
U would say how u can say it absolutely… I say
No other book of God except the Qur'an that prove me toady God can’t talk false or rabbis thing
It talks the absolute future also absolute past, science etc ctc that has proven by many scholar, scientist, philosopher, historian etc.
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the past is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the future is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the philosophy is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the biology is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the science is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the geography is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the medical science is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the solar system is absolutely accurate
-+ the verse of the Qur'an says about the Astronomy is absolutely accurate
-+ there is no such word in the Qur'an is rabbis
-+ there is no such word in the Qur'an is not meaningful
-+ there is no such copy of Qur'an is changed (edited or tampering by human, Allaah promised to protect Qur'an until the earth exits).
-+ the word, the verse of Qur'an is so accurately arrange it’s so miracle and I give u a challenge that no other book on earth contain it’s word so mathematically. It’s really a miracle.
Is their any thing left?? (Lot of thing left)
I have more amazing thing to tell u. According to ur vision It must written by Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) but how can it be? he is a illiterate man (either read nor write). Confused??
Prophet Muhammad (puph) was forty when, during his one of many retreats to Mount Hira for meditation during the month of Ramadan, he received the first revelation from the Archangel Jibril (Gabriel). On this first appearance, Gabriel (as) said to Muhammad: "Iqraa," meaning Read or Recite. Prophet replied, "I cannot read," as he had not received any formal education and did not know how to read or write. The Angel Gabriel then embraced him until he reached the limit of his endurance and after releasing said: "Iqraa." Prophet’s answer was the same as before. Gabriel repeated the embrace for the third time, asked him to repeat after him and said:
"Recite in the name of your Lord who created! He created man from that which clings. Recite; and thy Lord is most Bountiful, He who has taught by the pen, taught man what he knew not."
These revelations are the first five verses of Surah (chapter) 96 of the Qur’an. Thus it was in the year 610 CE the revelation began.
I thing it is enough for child to aged, illiterate to scholar or any one not believe in God to tell this Book can not be written by Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). Who write it??
If u analyzes history u found every Prophet except Prophet Adam (pbuh) (first Prophet also first human of the earth) that not welcomed by people also never people trusted their word which is from God at beginning. Then people (who r chosen by God) see some sign, miracle or something light in the Prophet Act, word, appearance etc. and beginning to believe what Prophet believe. After many sacrifice religion is established. Isn’t it?
Prophet Mohammad (pubh) and Islam had the same sign what the earlier prophet had. Not agree? Then pls research the history.
U thinks Islam is his (Prophet Mohammad (pubh)) personal vision? U must know how Prophet Mohammad (pubh) led his life. He had a great power. Muslim believes what he believes. Muslim follows what he follows. Muslim does what he used to do. Is there any other great power than he had? If yes I wonder what that would be.
So its a simple logic told me that he had a luxurious life, dictating his people, unjust the people to honor his will etc.
But I m afraid I would disappoint u again.
Pls do check this (I really don’t want to sized this post of 500 pages) http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...scription.html
If this is not enough for u about the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) then ask me for further info.
If the above things not make u to say that Qur’an is the book of God then I really wonder what statement is required after this…and I really should say u pls say goodbye religion goodbye believe in God.
Allaah says Qur’an is the complete book of God (best & complete vision of God law) and Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the last and the best Massager of all. He is not for any nation but for the whole world.
At last I say Allaah know the best.
(May Allaah forgive me if I lower or over react anywhere in this post)
Last edited by i_m_tipu; 03-06-2006 at 11:51 AM.
Reason: sign prob
If the above things not make u to say that Qur’an is the book of God then I really wonder what statement is required after this…and I really should say u pls say goodbye religion goodbye believe in God.
Most Huffadh (people who have memorized the entire Qur'an) understand its message, and are therefore not ignorant. But many Muslims who have memorized a handful of Surahs have not studied Islam at an academic level, and that is why they are ignorant of many of its teachings. They just take what they hear from one place, and what they read in another, and then they formulate their whole conclusions and ideas based on that without studying it in context and looking at other relevant details.
Why doesn't these that has read part of the koran listen to those that has memorized it? It is so widely memorized, you say.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
First, which 'mullahs' are you talking about?
Those that are preaching hatred and war, and that are encouraging people to suicide-bomb different targets.
Sorry for keeping you waiting but I have been awfully busy
Then to the New Testament vs. koran thingie....
You arguments is that the koran has many more regulations than the New testamen.
From this, you seem to draw the conclusion that believing in the bible has somehow less faith than those believing in the koran. I cannot see that this is valid reasoning. The christians submit to their religion just as much as muslems, they "accept lord Jesus as their saviour".
And while the New Testament does not have many directives and such, it has certainly shaped the western society. One of the bible verses I think illustrates the difference between Christianity and islam is this:
"17 And Jesus answered and said to them, Then yield ye to the emperor those things that be the emperor's; and to God those things that be of God."
This creates an entirelly other culture than one in which the founder and prophet also was the emperor.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I assume that I am conversing with objective researchers who are willing to spend the time and resources in order to engage in a more advanced and sophisticated discussion of the evidence. I assume that I am not conversing with someone who has no serious desire to study the material and simply wants to argue their opinion. Nevertheless, I did provide links, so I don't see what there is to complain about. If you seriously wish to learn the material then I've referred you to the best source on the topic.
The reason why it is not a custom to buy the books other persons refer to is that if everybody did so they would end up broke. There is written books about everything.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Out of curiosity, what is your native language?
Norwegian.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Sure. Look up the references I provide and see if they are correct. Or find if there are other mentions of the word that are not included in the count.[....]
Can any word repetition be used to disprove the koran?
You can try to disprove word repetitions, but it doesn't make sense to use word repetitions to disprove the Qur'an, since they are inherently either evidence in favour of a scripture or neutral.
(my emphasis).
That is the problem with your logic. You use word repetitions that has accidentally been repeated the same number of times, but there are no rules for which words has to be repeated what number of times, or how these words are supposed to be connected.
That is why the repetitions are invalid. Give me a set of rules. If not, there is only opinions, all of it.
There is so many words in any language, let us say there are 5000 words in arabic(probably there are more) and each of them can be connected with 4999 others.... In a long text as the koran there is a larger possibility more words are mentioned and more patterns can be made...
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Array
CoolJannah,
...u haven't even looked at those links yet i guess...
Re: prove that the qur'an is the word of god
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Posting Permissions
Quote
Bookmarks