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Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

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    Israel and the annihilation of Palestine (OP)


    First of all, let me state that I do not have any personal opinion as to wheter the Palestines are "The Tribe of Esau" as mentioned in the old testament, or not. But it has become clear to me that many Israel schoolars consider this to be a fact, and this should be on any muslims mind these days.

    The Bible forsees the destruction of Esaus tribe by Israel. Israel, tired by years of conflict and threats from their neighbouring countries are now pulling their forces out of the occupied areas, creating a buffer zone between themselves and palestinians. Is this only because they are being protective, or do they have other plans?

    Obviously you may say that The Bible is false, and that there is no way the jewish people are "Gods people". (I myself, am not jewish..) However, never in modern history have so few dominated so many so thoroughly. The Jews are outnumbered 35 to 1, and they still dominate the Arabs. How humiliating it must be for the Arabs not to be able to defeat such an outnumbered foe. Furthermore, it has not mattered that the Arabs succeeded in bringing the U.S.S.R. into the conflict on their side. Even though the Arabs were trained and equipped by the Russians, they have not been able to defeat Israel.

    Any reader who are interested in the events of today should read this article carefully. Why should you read it, if it is not true? Because this is what some powerfull men in Israel believes. PS, there may be some links in the article, they are not likely to work as these are news for subscribers of a special network. Actually I am not allowed to show this, but I have chosen to do it anyway.

    ----------------------------------------

    "HOUSE OF ESAU" SHOWN TO BE TODAY'S PALESTINIANS

    In Israel

    NEWS BRIEF: "Jordan's Disengagement Connection", by Jimmy DeYoung, Israel My Glory, November/December, 2005

    "The Jewish people, God's Chosen People, were promised a land that God, through the ancient Jewish prophets, told them they would possess at the time of of the coming of Messiah. The land, promised in 38 different passages of Scripture, including the Gaza Strip and the area in northern Samaria that the Israelis evacuated over the summer."

    "As for the Palestinians, leading Orthodox Jewish Bible scholars believe they are the descendants of Amalek, the grandson of Esau (Genesis 36:12)."

    Let us quickly review this Scripture passage given above, but let us start in verse 9:

    "And this is the history of the descendants of Esau the father of the Edomites in the hill country of Seir. These are the names of Esau's sons: Eliphaz, the son of Adah, Esau's wife, and Reuel, the son of Basemath, Esau's wife. And the sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz. And Timna was a concubine of Eliphaz, Esau's son; and she bore Amalek to Eliphaz. These are the sons of Adah, Esau's wife." (Genesis 36:9-12; Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible Commentary)

    This passage identifies this particular line of genealogy as "the descendants of Esau the father of the Edomites". Remember this identification, for we shall be returning to it shortly as we discuss the application of this prophecy as it applies to the Palestinians living outside Israel -- in Jordan.

    This one sentence is simply dynamite! It literally says that the present-day Palestinians, living in Israel, are the descendents of the "House of Esau". Why is that important? It is critically important because God breathed an End of the Age prophecy against the "House of Esau" in Obadiah 15-18, one of the most startling prophecies in the Bible -- and one working its way forward toward fulfillment.

    "But on Mount Zion [in Jerusalem] there shall be deliverance [for those who escape], and it shall be holy; and the house of Jacob shall possess its [own former] possessions. The house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame , but the house of Esau shall be stubble; they shall kindle and burn them and consume them, and there shall be no survivor of the house of Esau, for the Lord has spoken it." [Verses 17-18; Emphasis added]

    Let us pause for a moment to examine the identification of the Palestinians as the "House of Esau" from yet another angle. In U.S. Army Intelligence, I was taught to look for "signs on the ground" to either arrive at my position or to prove that my thesis was correct and moving forward. When I thoroughly studied the above passage, I was struck by the prophecy that the nation of Israel (Houses of Jacob and Joseph) were going to destroy the "House of Esau" by some kind of "fire" -- a fire that would totally annihilate the descendents of Esau.

    Realizing that this prophecy was nearly 2,500 years old and set in the Old Testament, I concluded that a destruction by fire in that time period would have to mean that the Houses of Jacob and Joseph had to be living in close proximity to the "House of Esau". A weapon of fire is a close-quarter weapon.

    Further, this prophecy suggests that Israel resorted to a destruction by fire because the Houses of Jacob and Joseph were in close-quarter conflict which could not be resolved by any means other than annihilation by fire.

    Do we see the nation of Israel (Houses of Jacob and Joseph) in close quarter proximity with an implacable foe? Yes, we certainly do! We see that Israel has been in close-quarter conflict with the Palestinians, a conflict which has been ongoing since the early 1970's, where Yassir Arafat's terrorists murdered 11 Israeli athletes in the 1972 Olympics in Munich. This conflict has literally tried the soul of Israelis of all political and religious persuasions.

    In June, 1990, I read an editorial in the Jewish Press which indicated that Israel's patience was at an end, and that the next major war was going to result in the annihilation of Israel's implacable enemies. . This editorial stated that a decision had been made at the highest military and civilian leadership levels of the Israeli government that the next Arab-Israeli war would be the war in which the Israeli Defense Force would annihilate the entire populations of the Arabs who hated them so badly. These Jewish leaders were sick and tired of constantly being attacked, winning the war, but then not winning the peace.

    Further, this top Israeli leadership was concerned that, in due time, the Arabs would possess Weapons of Mass Destruction which could be delivered by suicide bombers, at which point Israel was surely doomed. Therefore, top Israeli leadership in 1990 had decided to annihilate entire populations during the next Arab - Israeli war.

    Therefore, we can see that top Israeli leadership -- both civilian and military -- had decided that they were going to destroy the total population of the Arabs. Just two years later, the world learned of the Oslo Accords, which we believe is the greatest trap ever sprung upon a people or upon the world. In the guise of wanting peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians, Israel promised through Oslo to withdraw from huge chunks of her land in order that the Palestinians could have their own state. However, the truth truly does lie in the opposite direction of the stated rhetoric (NEWS1558), for what Israel is really doing is strategically withdrawing her settlers so they will not be killed along with the Palestinians.

    The crucial element to understanding that the Palestinians comprise the "House of Esau" thus depends upon several factors:

    1) They are physically descendents from Amalek, grandson of Esau, as noted above;

    2) A senior Rabbi emailed me from Jerusalem who told me that the Palestinians were the modern-day descendents of the House of Esau! These Palestinians lived in both Edom, a province of Jordan, and within Israel under the leadership of Yassir Arafat!

    3) In late November, 1999, I was invited to the 2-day Calgary Bible Prophecy Conference as a speaker. While there, I was introduced to a retired Bible professor at the Calgary Bible College. I asked him if he knew if the "House of Esau" spoken of in Obadiah had a modern-day descendent; immediately, with no hesitation, he nodded his head in the affirmative, and said that, "Yes", there was a modern-day descendent, and they were known as the Palestinians.

    4) Middle Eastern events were daily filled with the close-quarter conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, a conflict which cannot end until one side is eradicated, given the hatred the Palestinians possess against the Jew. This conflict was "proof on the ground" which any experienced Army Intelligence analyst would look for to see if his understanding was correct.

    5) In NEWS1422 (Posted October, 2000) I also noted that, since no Jewish leader -- even the hard-hearted Illuminati -- would find it acceptable to kill tens of thousands of Jews when their armed forces destroyed the Palestinians by fire. Therefore, I stated that we would see a major effort to see the populations separated, both by a barrier and by removing the settlers from the territories slated to be temporarily transferred to Palestinian control.

    Thus, we have five proofs that Obadiah 15-18 was in the process of being fulfilled at the End of the Age, just as verse 15 of this passage indicates.

    However, Jimmy DeYoung gives us even more reasons to understand that these Palestinians are the "House of Esau". Let us go back to his article:

    "These are the people whom God said He would have war with throughout all generations (Ex 17:16)." (Ibid.)

    Did you know that God singled out Amalek for a declaration of war "from generation to generation"? Listen to this verse;

    "And he said, Because theirs is a hand against the throne of the Lord, the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible Commentary)

    Now, DeYoung goes to the prophet Malachi in his identification of the present-day Palestinians.

    "The Jewish prophet Malachi revealed that the Edomites (all of the descendents of Esau) would one day return and rebuild; and the Lord would call their borders the 'Territory of Wickedness' (Mal 1:4). The Edomites were once headquarted in the city of Petra in Edom, the biblical name for the lower third of modern-day Jordan." (Ibid.)

    This last sentence brings us to the final portion of our examination today. The original home of the Edomites (all of the descendents of Esau) was in the province of Edom, which today is part of Jordan. Since World War II, the Palestinians in Israel could have elected to go home to Edom, for that is their real homeland. However, the King of Jordan would not allow such a return, for the reasons which Jimmy DeYoung observes is facing the current king of Jordan,

    "Turmoil in neighboring Iraq, terrorism in Israel, and plots against Jordan all have King Abdullah keeping a close watch as the Palestinians take control of the disputed areas with a promise to continue their armed struggle against the State of Israel. To better understand King Abdullah's vigilance, we must remember that more than 65 percent of Jordan's population is made up of Palestinians." (Ibid.)

    Now, we are considering the Palestinians in the country of Jordan, which comprise 65% of all the citizens of Jordan. This reality means that the King -- who is Hashemite -- is a minority ruler. For this reason, his security forces have to constantly be on guard against assassination attempts. King Hussein of Jordan threw his elite army units against Yassir Arafat's PLO in September, 1970, in order to keep his throne! The beginning of this war is called "Black September" amongst the Arabs. Listen to an encyclopedia account:

    "September 1970 is known as the Black September in the Arab history and sometimes is referred to as the 'era of regrettable events'. It was a month when Hashemite King Hussein of Jordan moved to quash an attempt of Palestinian organizations to overturn his monarchy, the attack resulted in heavy civilian Palestinian casualties. The armed conflict lasted until July 1971." ("Black September in Jordan", Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

    As you can see, the Jordanians have always feared the majority population of Palestinians, which explains their consistent background approachment with Israel. The reality is that no one is the entire Islamic Middle East likes the Palestinians; rather, they all hate them and want them dead. Listen as a Pentagon report makes this fact very clear.

    " "The Arab war plan does, indeed, call for the annihilation of the Jewish State, but there is another target. The Palestinian Arabs have been a hated thorn to most of the Arab world. While the Arab dictators used the Palestinian Arabs as a terrorist front to recover Arab pride for past battlefield defeats, they never allowed them to settle as citizens in their nations. They know that once these clever, hostile people have an operating state, they can and will cause havoc in the Arab world. They will constantly demand money, using the 'or else' blackmail, as in the past. Therefore, during this coming war, the two targets are both the Jews and the Palestinian Arabs." ("1997: The Next Arab-Israeli War", by Emanuel A. Winston, A Middle East Analyst and Commentator, The Jewish Press, Week of January 31, 1997, Vol. XLVII, No. 5, p. 43 and 53.).

    Now, going back to Obadiah 15-18, we see God's prophecy that this coming war between the Houses of Jacob and Joseph will result in a 100% annihilation of the House of Esau -- whom we now know to be the Palestinians. For this complete annihilation of the Palestinian people to occur as the prophecy dictates, does this mean that the Palestinians living in Jordan, mostly in the province of Edom, have to also be destroyed?

    Interestingly, a parallel passage in Isaiah 34 foretells of a complete annihilation of "Edom, the descendants of Esau", at the End of the Age. Let us review portions of this prophecy:

    After describing the End of the Age slaughter against all nations of the earth in verses 1-4, God turns His attention to the people of Edom:

    "Because My sword has been bathed and equipped in heaven, behold, it shall come down upon Edom [the descendants of Esau], upon the people whom I have doomed for judgment.

    6The sword of the Lord is filled with blood [of sacrifices], it is gorged and greased with fatness--with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah [capital of Edom] and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.

    7And the wild oxen shall fall with them, and the [young] bullocks with the [old and mighty] bulls; and their land shall be drunk and soaked with blood, and their dust made rich with fatness.

    8For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense, for the cause of Zion." (Isaiah 34:5-8; Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible Commentary)

    Whenever you read or hear of terrorist attacks carried out by Palestinians against Jews, you can rest assured that God is watching, is taking notes, and is just awaiting His "day of vengeance, a year of recompense, for the cause of Zion."

    Now, let us return to this passage, for God has terrible plans for even the land on which these descendants of Esau are living.

    "And the streams of Edom will be turned into pitch and its dust into brimstone, and its land will become burning pitch. The burning of Edom shall not be quenched night or day; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever." (Isaiah 34:9-10; Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible Commentary)

    Therefore, we should expect that, as Israel is moving to annihilate the Palestinians soon after they have completed their security barrier and have withdrawn her last settler from selected areas of the West Bank, Israel will also have a plan to launch an attack which will destroy the Palestinians in Jordan, causing "the streams of Edom (to be) be turned into pitch and its dust into brimstone, and its land will become burning pitch".

    These are harsh statements, and we make them with a heavy heart, for we wish the death of no one. But, the End of the Age is the time when God does destroy entire nations and peoples. Since we know the appearance of Antichrist is close, we should expect that these horrific prophecies will begin to come to pass.

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    shorouk's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

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    Turin Turambar ;
    After all during these 200 years of defeats (more or less) Muslim countries have been in fact very Islamic. Most of them still are.

    u saidn this but ... im very sorry u are wrong visit a muslim country first and trust me u wouldnt say that
    im egyptian and ive been there several times ... and see it on arabic tv etc etc...

    i dotn think soo....
    name me one country that majority of it is mostly religious... but u have to have trusted sources or u wnet there personally and spotted this...
    mayb palestine bcuz of is state even many of my frends has been there recnetly and yet there are mnay bad muslims...

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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid View Post
    whats all this defeat about, why are you over looking the wars that have been won??? ex: agaist the roman army of about 100,000 muslims were only 13,000 and they won!!! you can look that up !!

    GOD doesnt want ISLAM TO EXPAND ???????
    HELLO this is a religion from GOD, A MERCY FROM GOD!! EVEN JEWISH AND CHRISTIANS CAN ADMIT THAT, ISLAM IS A REAL AND LAST RELIGION, MOHAMED(PBH) IS THE LASTTTT PROPHET!!!!!
    THEN WHY IS ISLAM THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION IN THE WORLDDDD !!!!

    So well said brother:bravo: ..even USA has now said this "Islam is fasting growing religion"
    Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    001:2 Praise be to Allah,
    cherisher,
    and Sustainer
    of the worlds....

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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    As someone who is a Jew, I have to say that I find this thread to be offensive and reprehensible. Jews are accustomed to Christians reinterpreting their scriptures to justify Christian escatology, and such is excusable when it goes to the core of Christianity [e.g., the otherwise unjustifiable belief that Jesus was the Jewish messiah]. However, when such reinterpretation of our scriptures is for the purpose of creating discord between Jews and other people [in this case Muslims] it is WAY over the line.

    There are, of course, crazies in every religion who misuse their traditions for bad purposes, and we Jews have some such around the so-called "Temple Institute," in the Koch movement and among the "settlers." But most Jews [around 98% or more] simply would disagree 100% with what is being pushed as our "destiny" in this thread.

    Indeed, all but a very small minority of Jews would tell you that Jews don't believe in destiny. Their religion is about choice between good and evil, not about a world in which human beings are puppets being manipulated by a G_d who has already stacked the deck.

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    ygalg's Avatar Limited Member
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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid View Post
    EVEN JEWISH AND CHRISTIANS CAN ADMIT THAT, ISLAM IS A REAL AND LAST RELIGION, MOHAMED(PBH) IS THE LASTTTT PROPHET!!!!!
    THEN WHY IS ISLAM THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION IN THE WORLDDDD !!!!
    nope we cannot admit on something it is not true at least from our POV (sorry)

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    Turin Turambar's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    Chuck:

    Thanks for your answer. I will focus on one of the last things you said

    "I don't think victory or defeat in worldly battles have any bearing on the truth or falsity of the religion"

    How could that be? If there is a true religion, that says exactly what God really wants, how could that religion fail? Who is opposing God and making his plans fail? If God is all-powerful, that doesn't makes sense. What He wants is what happens, and that's it.

    And the truth is that in the case of Islam worldly battles were the key to the success it had for a while. The primitive arabs believed in Muhammad precisely because he was winning battles, he could show in a practical way that Allah was really on his side. And when modern Muslims say with pride that "Islam expanded so fast because it is true" aren't they also saying that the truth of Islam depends on its winning battles? Because saying that "Islam exapanded" is the same as saying "Islam won battles". That is how the expansion of islam happened! Egypt and Syria were Christian, Iran (Persia) was Magian (Zoroastrian) and today they are mostly Muslim. How did that happen? Did they decide to imitate their neighbors the primitive Arabs? Of course not! Muslim armies invaded those countries and that is how Islam expanded. And that expansion is what makes you believe Islam is true.

    So my question is still valid. If Islam is not expanding anymore and is on the contrary losing all battles, isn't that a proof that it is not true?

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    abdul Majid's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    format_quote Originally Posted by ygalg View Post
    nope we cannot admit on something it is not true at least from our POV (sorry)

    ACTUALLY THATS YOUR OPINION YOU DONT SPEAK FOR EVERY ONE OF THEM!!!

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    Turin Turambar's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    But ygalg is saying something obvious when he says that Muhammad is not recognized by the Jews as a prophet. And with all humility I can speak for the Christians and say the same. For us Muhammad is NOT a prophet. This is not a matter on which you will have two opinions among Jews and Christians.

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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    Oh So You Speak For The Billions Of Christians Huh..lol

    Can I Get Your Autograph By The Way, You Must Be Real Famous To Represent All These People

    SO HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE QURAN ???? AND I GUESS YOU NEVER RESEARCHED PROPHET MUHAMMED(PBH)...
    Last edited by abdul Majid; 02-20-2006 at 02:31 AM.
    Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    "1. Qull huwa Allahu ahad Allahu alssamad Lam yalid walam yoolad Walam yakun lahu kufuwan ahad"
    Say: He is Allah the One and Only Allah, the Eternal Absolute He begetteth not nor is He begotten And there is none like unto Him.
    (112)


    wwwislamicboardcom - Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    How could that be? If there is a true religion, that says exactly what God really wants, how could that religion fail? Who is opposing God and making his plans fail? If God is all-powerful, that doesn't makes sense. What He wants is what happens, and that's it.
    You need to consider the following points together:
    1. We don't know the end result, which includes afterlife.
    2. From an Islamic POV this world is a testing ground so both good times and bad times are part of the plan of God. We are supposed to show peity in both.
    3. This world is very short temporary abode. Life after the Day of Judgment is the real life which is eternal.

    And the truth is that in the case of Islam worldly battles were the key to the success it had for a while. The primitive arabs believed in Muhammad precisely because he was winning battles, he could show in a practical way that Allah was really on his side. And when modern Muslims say with pride that "Islam expanded so fast because it is true" aren't they also saying that the truth of Islam depends on its winning battles? Because saying that "Islam exapanded" is the same as saying "Islam won battles". That is how the expansion of islam happened! Egypt and Syria were Christian, Iran (Persia) was Magian (Zoroastrian) and today they are mostly Muslim. How did that happen? Did they decide to imitate their neighbors the primitive Arabs? Of course not! Muslim armies invaded those countries and that is how Islam expanded. And that expansion is what makes you believe Islam is true.
    You have a lot of misunderstanding about Islamic POV, and I'm sorry I don't really have time to educate you on this one. Maybe someone else can help you. But in short I'll say you are missing the Makkan era of persecution and the bigger picture.

    So my question is still valid. If Islam is not expanding anymore and is on the contrary losing all battles, isn't that a proof that it is not true?
    Islam is still spreading; you can check internally reputable reporting organizations like CNN, NYTimes, etc.... Anyway, even if Islam cease to spread you will be wrong from Islamic POV.
    Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and obedience to Allâh, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allâh, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masâkîn (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salât, and gives the Zakât, and keep their word whenever they make a promise, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of persecution, hardship, and war. Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious).


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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid View Post
    ACTUALLY THATS YOUR OPINION YOU DONT SPEAK FOR EVERY ONE OF THEM!!!
    I am one of them

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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid View Post
    Can I Get Your Autograph By The Way, You Must Be Real Famous To Represent All These People
    and your claim for jews recognizing Muhammad to be a prophet, it is no better gesture

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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    To abdul Majid,

    Of course I can speak for all Christians on this matter and it is not because I am particularly powerful or famous. I wish I was...

    When you say "So You Speak For The Billions Of Christians" regarding my assertion that Christians don't consider Muhammed as a prophet you are failing to see that in the definition of Christian it is implied that we don't accept him as a prophet. What you say would be equivalent to saying "how do you know all weightlifters lift weights, have you talked to all of them, perhaps some of them don't" Well, if they didn't lift weights, they wouldn't be weightlifters!

    The fact is that all Christians consider Jesus the central event of Creation and the end of the period of prophecy. That is why they are Christians to begin with. Jesus was the object of all prophecies so after Him there can be no more prophets. If you believe something different, you are not a Christian. After Jesus anybody claiming to be a prophet is lying. That includes anybody claiming to be a prophet 600 years after Jesus.

    So I repeat what I said. Christians DO NOT consider Muhammad a prophet. We have a very different opinion of him.

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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    so why did jesus(pbh) say that some one named ahmed is gonna come after him????

    and if you reserach about PROPHET MOHAMED(PBH) youll see he is a prophet and the last one at that !!
    Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    "1. Qull huwa Allahu ahad Allahu alssamad Lam yalid walam yoolad Walam yakun lahu kufuwan ahad"
    Say: He is Allah the One and Only Allah, the Eternal Absolute He begetteth not nor is He begotten And there is none like unto Him.
    (112)


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  18. #34
    Turin Turambar's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    To abdul Majid,

    That statement about "some one named ahmed" is something I have read before, but only in Muslim websites. There is no HINT of anything like that in Christian scriptures or Christian doctrine as it has developed for 2,000 years. It is an invention of Muslim apologists.

    And I have done research about Muhammad, believe me, I have read a lot about him. I began reading about him after 9/11 and I am still reading.

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    abdul Majid's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    Dear Turin

    I Beleive You Know That The Bible Is Not Complete, There Is No Original !! Only Added On And Completed By People After Christ !! So How Would You Know?
    Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    "1. Qull huwa Allahu ahad Allahu alssamad Lam yalid walam yoolad Walam yakun lahu kufuwan ahad"
    Say: He is Allah the One and Only Allah, the Eternal Absolute He begetteth not nor is He begotten And there is none like unto Him.
    (112)


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  21. #36
    akulion's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    Salam Alaikum

    Well it seems a lot of misinformation is going around in this thread in relation to Islam.

    Misinformation
    1. Arabs believe in Mohammed(s) as being a prophet because he claimed to win wars

    Truth
    Mohammed(s) even before he recieved revelation was known for his good charcteristics and was called "Sadiq Ya Amin" (meaning honest and trustyworthy) by the Pagan Arabs as well as the Jewish and Others around who knew him. When he eventually did recieve revelation it was actually the beauty of Islam that brought people to Islam. Apart from this Mohammed (s) also performed some miracles for the people who kept asking. Prophets Miracles


    Misinformation
    Islam was spread through the sword and via co-ercing people to believe or they would be killed

    Truth
    Firstly it is against Islamic teachings to impose faith upon anyone by force.
    Secondly in the pre Islamic Arabia most pagan societies were very supressive and ignorant. With the advent of Islam people started embracing Islam in large numbers over time because for the first time in history women were given equal rights, a slave was given equal staus to a free man and freedom of religion and worship was declared.

    The Muslim missionaries were exceptionally successful in preaching Islam to the people of other lands and as a result large numbers were converting to Islam. seeing this the govts of such lands started ordering the Muslims to be executed. This led to letters being issued to their leaders to stop the persecution and supression. Eventually due to them not stopping resulted in war. Once the land was captured even alarger numbers of people would embrace Islam solely based on the fact that it was giving them rights which they had never dreamed about.

    Some simple exmaples of the atrocities of the Non Muslim governments which are well documented in historic documents include:

    Women were being crucified when they would ask for their rights. This act was 100% supported by the Christian Church and the women were labelled Witches.

    Church would ordered deniers of Jesus killed and they were labelled blasphemers

    Scientists who were coming up with new theories which were in contradiction to Christian preachings were being killed and labelled as Heritics.

    In pagan lands (including pre Islamic Arabia) women children used to be burried alive because they were considered a burden.

    Misinformation
    Muslim god is false because Muslims are losing battles now and arent doing so good

    Truth
    Allah swt in the Quran clearly states that he is merciful to all his creation irrespective of their religion. He provides for all people. It is not a case of "if you are Muslim u will get everything and if you arent you wont get anything".
    Life is a trial for the believers - and thus God indeed tests people with poverty as well as riches, with success as well as defeat. Therefore Allah swt has made it clear in the Quran that to each nation and to each people he shall appoint a given term (in which they will have power) and when that term is up they will reach a decline.
    In the past we see the Egyprians, Greeks, Romans, etc etc all come to power and then fade. Same way the Islamic Empire was once the light of the world and faded. Now the secular west is on top and will eventually fade to be replace by another some day or the other.

    So this is actually a system of Allah that every nation and people will be put t test and trial both through success and power and through failure and poverty.


    Misconception
    Islam has failed because there is no Islamic state thus Allah cant be God

    Truth
    Islam is not a "thing" it is a way of life and a belief. As long as Islam lives in the hearts of people it can not be defeated. Currently there are 2,1 Billion Muslims world wide Alhamdolillah and this number is expanding at rates which have now earned Islam the title of "The Fastest Growing Religion on Earth"
    Thereofre Islam has not failed but rather is on the rise Alhamdolillah

    Misconception
    Muslms believe everything that happens on this Earth is because of Allah

    Truth
    Allah swt has created the universe and it runs according to his will.
    However humanity has been granted free will. We can use this free will to destroy or create. So when mankind spreads destruction around the world it is from his free will, not an act of God. Allah swt sees the efforts of a people and accordingly decides upon it.
    Look at "qadr" or "predestination" with this example:
    We are all on a big highway
    Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, etc etc etc....
    We are all travelling towards the same Goal - God (in Arabic Allah)
    On this road are many turns and hurdles as well.
    we cannot change the turns or hurdles - this is ordained by the creator.
    We however have the option of driving safely upon this road.
    We can choose to be wreckless in which case we lose.
    Or we can choose to drive safely - in which case we win.
    The creator of the road has also sent down instruction manual for people to follow.
    We can choose to accept it or reject it.
    Some people believe there is no creator of the road (atheists)
    Some people believe the creator of the road sent his son so that we wont have to obey the rule book anymore and be accountable for our mistakes (Christians)
    Some people believe they are choosen by the creator thus it dosent matter what happens because they are choosen (Jews)
    Some believe the creator of the Road is one and will judge them according to their efforts for following the rule book (Muslims)
    Others follow other theories (hindus, buddhists, wiccans, etc etc)
    Some people have choosen to write their own rule books and follow them.
    The creator of the road has also put "signs" up around the road for people to see and ponder upon so they can establish which rule book to follow.
    Thus accordingly whoever made sound judgement and is driving best and according to the correct rules - will recieve the prize from God (heaven)

    -----------------------------
    I know this may not be the best of examples but this is what I could come up in my mind for now - hope it helps people understand what I am trying to say.

    So basically we act on this Earth - But God runs the Earth.

    Well I will stop here - I sincerely hope my input will help clearify some concerns for people.

    salam Alaikum
    Last edited by akulion; 02-22-2006 at 01:34 AM.
    Israel and the annihilation of Palestine


  22. #37
    Turin Turambar's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    To abdul Majid,

    You are touching on an important point. The concept of Holy Scripture for Christians and Muslims is different.

    When Jesus was alive he never did what Muhammed would later do. He never stood up and said "Silence, I am receiving a message from God and it says that you have to obey me". Jesus never gave us a "recitation". He taught with his example, he performed miracles, he died and he rose from the dead. The people around him were so impressed by what they had seen that they began teaching his message. Only YEARS after his death would some of them put in writing what they had seen and heard. And they never claimed that it was a "recitation from God". It was simply their story about all the wonders they had seen. It was exactly what you would do if you had met an incredible person and you wanted to leave something written for others to know about him. It was natural.

    Muhammed did something very different, because he wanted power during his own life. He wouldn't wait to be dead before being recognized as a prophet. That is why he invented the idea of the "recitation from above", because it gave him an opportunity to use that trick whenever he wanted his followers to do something. Whenever he encountered a problem, the angel came with the best solution for HIM.

    Please listen to what I am saying. Go and get more information from the websites of Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina. I don't know you but believe me, I only want the best for you.

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    abdul Majid's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    lol....you said Mohamed (pbh) wanted power???

    Then you know nothing about him(pbh)....he had power, and he preformed many mircles, including the quran, buddy !!!
    He never used a trick , as you say ok!!!

    And what was Jesus's mesage(pbh)?? he preformed miricles just as Prophet MOhamed(pbh), and people started worshiping him, becuase they dont understand that GOD gave him this power, to show them hes just not any regular guy and hes a massenger..duhhhh, they never understood, PAUL IS THE ONE WHO STARTED WORSHIPING JESUS(PBH), THATS HOW THIS NOTION OF HIM BEING GOD OR THE SON OF GOD STARTED.....

    HE NEVER SAID HE WAS GOD OR THE SON OF GOD!!!!!!!
    HE ALWAYS SAID HE WAS A PLAIN MASSENGERRRRRRRR

    HELLO, LISTEN DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, HERES A FORMER PREISTTTT WHO KNOWS MORE THAN YOU!!!! HE WILL TELL YOU, HE KNOWS THE TRUTH THATS WHY HE IS MUSLIM NOW !!!


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    Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    "1. Qull huwa Allahu ahad Allahu alssamad Lam yalid walam yoolad Walam yakun lahu kufuwan ahad"
    Say: He is Allah the One and Only Allah, the Eternal Absolute He begetteth not nor is He begotten And there is none like unto Him.
    (112)


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  24. #39
    Turin Turambar's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    I will visit it if you promise to visit Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina! Both of them were Muslims, one born in Pakistan and one in Iran. Remember that I am not trying to get any power or advantage over you. I just want you to see things from a new point of view.

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    abdul Majid's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    I Agree Turin
    Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

    "1. Qull huwa Allahu ahad Allahu alssamad Lam yalid walam yoolad Walam yakun lahu kufuwan ahad"
    Say: He is Allah the One and Only Allah, the Eternal Absolute He begetteth not nor is He begotten And there is none like unto Him.
    (112)


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