Would you test someone if you already knew the results?

**j4763** · 05-09-2006

One thing that confuses me about Allah/God is the whole “life’s a test” thing.
If something bad happens (war/natural disasters…etc) many Muslims say that is a test from God. What’s the point if he already knows our future, from the moment where born God must know whether were going to become a Muslim or not. So why not skip the whole “life test” and place us in heaven or hell, once were conceived?

Why does Allah test us if he already knows whether we pass or fail?

**Kidman** · 05-11-2006

Originally Posted by czgibson

Greetings,

Teachers never know what grades their students are going to get. They can have a pretty good idea, but all kinds of things can change on the day of the test. That's very different from the foreknowledge that god is said to have.

Peace

Ya, ok, the example wasn't that good, but lets say the teacher had a superpower to know what all the students would get. Some would get A's, and some would get F's. If the teacher just gave them the grade without testing them then it wont be fair and the students with the F grade will be like "you didn't even give us a chance."

**IbnAbdulHakim** · 05-11-2006

Originally Posted by j4763

Ok, so why does allah test the evil? If he knows there going to kill, rape...etc why not stick them in hell at the very begining?
And does allah have some form of contract with the devil, i mean if god doesn't what someone to enter heaven/jannah does he say to satan "this guys been bad, so he's gotta go to hell" and what if satan dont want him either? Or does god own both heaven and hell?

shaytaan also has freewill, the disgusting creature duz wat he pleases.

**IbnAbdulHakim** · 05-11-2006

Originally Posted by j4763

Hopefully to make it aware that Muslims aren’t all evil head chopping terrorists.
And that many so-called Muslims aren’t following Islam. About 70% of Muslims I have known do not follow the Quran (some drink or smoke pot or eat pork…etc) and yet claim to be a Muslim and intern follow Islam which they are clearly not doing so.

I kno a LOT of the types of muslims your referring to, its a sickness of the heart and a sign of the last day i say, morality is slowly being lifted off earth.

lol i certainly hope im not an evil head chopping terrorist :eek:

**Kidman** · 05-11-2006

Good question tho... I asked the same thing about a year ago...

**HeiGou** · 05-11-2006

Originally Posted by Kidman

Ya, ok, the example wasn't that good, but lets say the teacher had a superpower to know what all the students would get. Some would get A's, and some would get F's. If the teacher just gave them the grade without testing them then it wont be fair and the students with the F grade will be like "you didn't even give us a chance."

I think the correct parallel is: Suppose the teacher assigned each student a seat at the begining of term and would not let any students move without the teacher's permission. And then set an exam. And then gave all those in the first two rows, As, all those in the next two rows Bs, all those in the next two rows Cs, and it was a very small class so no one failed. How is this fair?

**- Qatada -** · 05-11-2006

Would you give your car a test run, even though you knew it worked?

**czgibson** · 05-11-2006

Greetings,

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Would you give your car a test run, even though you knew it worked?

No. There would be no point.

Peace

**- Qatada -** · 05-11-2006

Originally Posted by czgibson

Greetings,

No. There would be no point.

Peace

Then how come people do it?

**shudnt_have** · 05-11-2006

Originally Posted by j4763

Ok, so why does allah test the evil? If he knows there going to kill, rape...etc why not stick them in hell at the very begining?
And does allah have some form of contract with the devil, i mean if god doesn't what someone to enter heaven/jannah does he say to satan "this guys been bad, so he's gotta go to hell" and what if satan dont want him either? Or does god own both heaven and hell?

my username would be considered an evil temptation...natural tendency of some humans to do 'evil'
i know 'shouldnt_have' done that..but I did it...i couldnt control myself..

i think it could be said same of the rapist, serial killers etc..they just fall for evil..

for all that slip of the tongue..slip of the moral issues..the satan and our evil part is accountable. ALLAH had knowledge of everything, His creations have a begining and end. our end is when we will be acccountable for the actions we took in this life.

whereas, ALLAH Is merciful..so He doesnt punish the rapist or the evil doers in this life..He gives us many chances every day to change and repent..
everyday is a blessing to become version of ourselves..unfortunately sometimes we dont take advantage of it..

did it make sense?

**czgibson** · 05-11-2006

Greetings,

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Then how come people do it?

Do they?

There's no point in testing something if you already know it works. That nullifies the whole reason for the test, surely?

Peace

**Goku** · 05-12-2006

Originally Posted by HeiGou

How will we know we deserve our punishments or our rewards? Before the Earth was formed, God decided whether I, for instance, would go to Heaven or Hell. Well before I was born that decision had been made. So what can I do either way to change that? Suppose I have a choice before me: God knows what I will do. Can I change that, can I make a different decision other than the one that God has already decided that I will make?

Allah knows what you will do, but you have the free will, its not Allah who is making you disbelieve. If you choose to convert to Islam in the future, Allah already knows about it. Just because Allah knows in wot state we will die, doesnt mean He is actually making us die in that state, He just knows it.

**nimrod** · 05-12-2006

J4763, I would like to check your answers, so that we aren’t confused by any of our responses.

We are agreed that if you know your child will lie given a certain question, then the child is a liar.

We agree the child has the qualities of being a liar no matter if the question was raised or not.

You agree that liars should be punished.

Now if we agree on has been listed, let’s move on toward the next step.

You have stated you would punish the child as a liar, even though you never allowed the question to be raised.

Now, what answer will you give to the child as to why you are punishing the child?

How will you show your child that you are “just”?

Thanks
Nimrod

**nimrod** · 05-12-2006

HeiGou, I am not so sure I agree with your statement in the abstract;

“no difference between God's decision and God's knowing”.

I understand you prefaced the statement with;

“There is, in this case,”

So I am not exactly how far back into the equation you are going, perhaps I am just misreading what you are saying.

Free-Will is exactly that, free-will.

Can you truly have free-will from a machine that is programmed to exclusively move in such a way that disallows any undesired motions?

As to the last part of your post “Can I end up doing something other than what God already knows I am going to do?” that gets into a little grayer area.

Anyone who gives you a simple yes or no answer, imo, may be over-estimating their understandings just a bit.

The clearest “gray” answer I can give you (I have to give myself plenty of lee-way by saying most of this part is just my best speculation based on a number of years of study)
God knows which side of the scale you are going to wind up on.

Thanks
Nimrod

**nimrod** · 05-12-2006

HeiGou, I hope you don’t get the impression I am picking on your posts tonight, it is just that you ask very good questions and also make very good posts.

Your posts cut through a lot of “what “is” is” and I try to take advantage of that. You do a very good job of clearly stating exactly what you mean and your thoughts are very well thought out.

“Suppose the teacher assigned each student a seat at the beginning of term” ask's a very good question.

I would have rathered the question was asked as such “Suppose the teacher arbitrarily assigned each student a seat at the beginning of term”.

That, imo, is the crux.

Thanks
Nimrod

**HeiGou** · 05-12-2006

Originally Posted by Goku

Allah knows what you will do, but you have the free will, its not Allah who is making you disbelieve. If you choose to convert to Islam in the future, Allah already knows about it. Just because Allah knows in wot state we will die, doesnt mean He is actually making us die in that state, He just knows it.

Actually it is God that is making me believe what I do and what I don't. I could have been born into a Muslim family but God decided not. I could have met a really convincing preacher. But God decided not. He has made the path easy for some, but not for me. If God knows what state I will die in, and He made all the decisions leading up to that point, every single meeting, every single teacher, every single book I read or TV program I watched, and if He hardened my Heart against Islam, in what sense isn't He making me die in the state I will be in?

**Ghazi** · 05-12-2006

Salaam

This question is simple allah has given you free will to do what you want he's shown you right from wrong, and left it up to you,.

**IbnAbdulHakim** · 05-12-2006

Originally Posted by czgibson

Greetings,

Do they?

There's no point in testing something if you already know it works. That nullifies the whole reason for the test, surely?

Peace

Wanted to ask if this question is the main reasoning behind u being an aethist? Why go through the test if God Allmighty knows all?

**HeiGou** · 05-12-2006

Originally Posted by nimrod

HeiGou, I am not so sure I agree with your statement in the abstract;

“no difference between God's decision and God's knowing”.

I understand you prefaced the statement with;

“There is, in this case,”

So I am not exactly how far back into the equation you are going, perhaps I am just misreading what you are saying.

I would go fairly far back along that chain.

Free-Will is exactly that, free-will.

Yes, but free will requires some degree of real choice. And I have none I am told. So I cannot have free will.

Can you truly have free-will from a machine that is programmed to exclusively move in such a way that disallows any undesired motions?

No. But suppose I have a machine that has free will. Except, without being aware of it, it always turns left at a green sign and right at a red sign. I put it in a maze where I have mapped out a path for it to take by painting the turns either red or green. So off goes the machine through the maze. Can it end up somewhere I do not intend it to go? Similarly if I come to a major decision, suppose I meet a beggar on the street who asks me for money. Now if God knows that I always give money to older men and women who lack significant degrees of hygene, but never to anyone else. And He chooses to make the begger a normal, health, young man in a suit, and I do not give him a cent, in what sense have I made a real choice?

As to the last part of your post “Can I end up doing something other than what God already knows I am going to do?” that gets into a little grayer area.

Anyone who gives you a simple yes or no answer, imo, may be over-estimating their understandings just a bit.

The clearest “gray” answer I can give you (I have to give myself plenty of lee-way by saying most of this part is just my best speculation based on a number of years of study)
God knows which side of the scale you are going to wind up on.

He not only knows, but He has chosen the path I will take, and arranged everything so that I will choose the path He has decided on. He has painted the corners and turnings red or green for me. In what sense can I break away from that given whatever influences go into my decisions, God has knows them, and has chosen for them to appear?

**------** · 05-12-2006

Originally Posted by Abd'Majid

Thats like saying: Why kick a ball if you know where its gonna go? You kno its gonna go where u aim it so why kick it?

Allah swt has given us freewill to USE, yes he can easily tell us what we will do but then why should we enter jannah? what have we done to enter it? Also the people who enter jahannam will complain a LOT, lol can you imagine? not doing anything bad and going to hell? You'd b like WHAT? so thats the reason!! Its so that we understand and experience this dunya and get what we deserve!!

Yeh thats so true...

**Hijaabi22** · 05-12-2006

[BANANA]its called free will and destiny and theres a link between the two even tho ppl dont understand how we can have freee will if Allah(swt) has already determined our destiny[/BANANA]