Al salam aleikom wa rahmut Allah wa barakatoh ,
In the name of Allah all mighty all powerfull , blessing be upon his messangers.
Brother in faith ,
A brother told me about an argument which I found very not easy to refute plus I find it very contridicting to anything I have thought of as a muslim.
In my view of christiniaty , St Paul was the person who brought this new theology which we all know as the trinity into existence . Thus as he has inserted the sign of shirk into the pure religin of Prophet Jesus AS we as muslims are supposed to be critical of his works.
However , in the sura verse (36:14) where Allah AWJ talks about him sending prophets to a certain group of people I was looking through some tafsir and was amazingly shocked me is that Ibn Kathir , Soyouti are actually having the suggestion that they may agree that Paul is the third prophet sent to these people in that verse (i.e. Entakia as a consesus of most scholars) thus giving the credibility of Paul as a messanger.
Now due to the fact that there is not a perfect consesus between scholars among who these messangers were it still does not satisfy me that Ibn Kathir one of the most highly qualified scholards would actually say such a statment not to mention soyouti.
On a personal issue this topic has been bothering me and my faith towards god and towards islam because I trust that this religion is perfect but when I see such highly strong arguments against with stong proofs I lose touch of my strong faith , not to mention that these days there are no people to help you take good information about such misconceptions if they are so.
So brother in faith help me kill the doubt by defeating this claim whether it was true or not.
well i had questions that i seriously donot get . so one day i went to ask some of my non muslim friends anyways they say that they dont know . even some of my question made them confused and they were wondering for the answer ... no offense im confused.
I am the closest of all the people to Jesus son of Mary,
because there is no other Prophet between him and myself.
The passage starts of by saying I am the closest of all the people to Jesus, but closest in what respect, he may not have been talking about time or relationships, because at this point it is talking about the prophet and Jesus pbut. as people.
So you might ask how can they have been the closest of people when they were separated geographically and by time; there has to be a different kind of measurement to make them the closest of people. The last part of the passage describes how they were the closest of people as prophets.
In Islam the Prophet pbuh is looked on as the greatest, and Jesus pbuh, is looked on as the second greatest prophet. The next greatest prophet would be the third greatest, so in terms of greatness you have the first and the second, so there can be no other prophet between the two.
By this interpretation Paul need not be excluded as a prophet, have there been over a hundred thousand prophets?
Brothers brothers ,
till now honestly nobody gave me a satisfying answer , I was hoping to find some 'hardcore' knowledge brothers here inshalla.
Anyway when I said "not prophets of god , but messangers of a holy book " I think I have to paraphrase that.
Prophets Of god examples Moses Ibrahim , Jesus
Messengers of holy book : People sent by prophets to spread the word of god.
so that verse is stating the Jesus sent two messengers to Antakia a place in Rome in order to make Dua. Then god sent a third messenger to support the first two.
36: 14 "When We (first) sent to them two apostles, they rejected them: But We strengthened them with a third: they said, "Truly, we have been sent on a mission to you." "
Now according to Ibn Kathir to the narration of Shuab Bin Jeba'e that apostle was Paul.
If this was true then our hate to Paul and has to stop (but to his theology ofcourse we have to disagree about it )
But this contradictes history because Paul was the first one to teach it. So either Ibn Kathir is commiting a mistake in saying it was Paul or the history we know is altered.
Subhan Allah,
Talk about guidance from god
anyway I wish someone with strong arabic can read this for me: http://www.uaearab.com/anbiaa/ys.htm
because I think this clearifies everything inshalla.
And if possible to translate it
Brother, men...be they scholars or not, are prone to errors, (perhaps you or your friend have misunderstood this tafsir). I can't read arabic and do not have access to what you initially quoted, but it's really not necessary.
All you have to do is ask yourself some simple questions. "Did all the prophets teach the same thing?" The answer is YES....the oneness of God. Did any of the prophets teach things like blood atonement, original sin and a tri-union? The answer is NO. However, you are questioning the validity of Pauline doctrine when he taught things completely different than any of the prophets. How can that be justified in your mind?
Paul spent his lifetime killing, torturing and persecuting followers of Jesus, pbuh, and wanted nothing more than to see Jesus, pbuh, completely destroyed. He never heard Jesus, pbuh, speak, never spoke to His true disciples and never tried to learn anything He taught. However, after Jesus, pbuh, was taken up, all of a sudden Paul meets Jesus, pbuh, on the road to Damascus and Jesus, pbuh, makes him a disciple???? Even after this most amazing vision, where does Paul go? Straight to the chosen disciples of Christ to learn the gospel? NOOO, he disappears for 3 years and reappears with his own doctrine. When he does manage to go to the chosen disciples of Jesus, pbuh, they didn't trust him and he was blasted many times for teaching false doctrine. He was never accepted by the true followers of Jesus, pbuh, but he did manage to convince many that the previous laws had been abolished, (even though Jesus, pbuh, clearly says He did not come to abolish the laws of the Prophets before Him, but to fulfill them), so their salvation was guaranteed. Who taught this? Who gave him this right? Paul admits many times his words were not inspired, ie: 1 Corinthians 7:25, he admits that he used trickery to gain followers, ie: Corinthians 9:19-21.
This is the man you are questioning and leaves you questioning your deen??
I posted the following in another thread and I will post it for you here. Then ask yourself, who inspired Paul to write his doctrine:
Original Sin:
Jesus: Not taught, Mark 19:13-14, Ezekiel 18:20-21
Muhammed: Not taught, Quran 6:164
Paul: Taught, Romans 5:12-14, Corinthians 15:22
Are we all unrighteous?
Jesus: NO, Mark 2:16-17, Mark 15:24
Muhammed: NO, Qur’an 33:70-71, 38:82-83
Paul: YES, Romans 3:10-23
Do our good works have any bearing before God?
Jesus: YES, Mat. 15:16, John 10:24-25
Muhammed: YES, Qur’an 24:38, 42:23
Paul: NO, Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 3:6-14
Must we follow the laws and commandments of God?
Jesus: YES, Matt 19:17, mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Psalms 112:1, Exodus 20:6
Muhammed, YES, Qur’an 6:151-153
Paul, NO, Galatians 2:16, 3:11, 3:24, Romans 2:13
Is Atonement through sacrifice necessary?
Jesus: NO, Mark 12:28-29, Matt. 9:13, Hosea 6:6
Muhammed: NO, Qur’an 3:77
Paul: YES, Ephesians 5:2, Galatians 3:13, Hebrews 9:26
(by Ali Ataie)
How can Paul's doctrine be so drastically different from the Prophets we KNOW were sent and inspired by Allah, swt?
Wasalam,
Hana
Last edited by *Hana*; 05-21-2006 at 05:22 AM.
"Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched...but are felt in the heart.
-Helen Keller
I have spent the past hour or so reading everything I have to figure out where you get Paul from in this surah. I really wish I could see the particular tafsir you are referring to. Is it possible there is a translation or typing error in what you are reading? Absolutely nothing I found referred to Paul at all and I'm wondering if the translator erroneously referred to Paul instead of Peter in what you are reading.
What I come up with is the 2 people referred to are the disciples of Jesus, pbuh, Simon the Canaanite and Thomas and when the pagans and idol worshippers rejected them, (while giving the message of Jesus, pbuh), they were sent a 3rd. That being Peter, to reinforce what the first two were preaching. What they were preaching was the true teachings of Jesus, pbuh.....The Oneness of God.
Wasalam,
Hana
"Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched...but are felt in the heart.
-Helen Keller
Mashalla sister,
Inshalla Allah will entrust me to marry a sister of your knowledge so she can increase my faith and hit me on the head whenever I question things :P
Anyway back to the topic
Sister Peter is actual name is simon peter which is referted to in arabic as "sham'oun" As for word peter itself its "Botrus" thus this does not prove your point however you emphasized on a very good point that Paul never met Jesus only the decibles did.
Sister Peter is actual name is simon peter which is referted to in arabic as "sham'oun" As for word peter itself its "Botrus" thus this does not prove your point however you emphasized on a very good point that Paul never met Jesus only the decibles did.
Salam Alaikum, Brother:
Yes, Peter's name is Simon Peter (Simon the Rock), referred to as Peter and Simon the Canaanite was given this name so he wouldn't be confused with Peter. However, that doesn't change the fact that I could find nothing that referred to Paul in this surah.
As far as I know Paul never met Thomas or Simon the Canaanite and it is highly unlikely that Paul, (who was not trusted by the disciples or the true followers of Jesus, pbuh,) would have been sent to reinforce what Thomas and Simon were preaching to the pagans. However, it does make complete sense that Peter would have gone as he was considered the leader of the church in the early days after Jesus, pbuh. You also have to understand, that it was only the chosen disciples of Jesus, pbuh, (according to the bible), that were given permission to go preach to the Gentiles. Paul, after his 3 year disappearance, took that role on himself, and taught different doctrine than the true disciples. So, there is no way Paul would have been sent to reinforce what Thomas and Simon were preaching in the earliest days of Christianity. I should add that Paul did not meet Peter and James until 49 AD! Almost 50 years AFTER Jesus, pbuh, was taken up. From what I have skimmed over, (and quite honestly, I haven't read in detail), this particular event happened in the earliest days of the church, as later both Simon and Thomas went in different directions to preach.
Anyway, I hope that clears things up.
Wasalam,
Hana
Last edited by *Hana*; 05-21-2006 at 05:54 PM.
"Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched...but are felt in the heart.
-Helen Keller
Well, brother, please keep in mind that many, many Christians condemned the insults towards Prophet Muhammed, pbuh, and they did this openly. I think I could safely say that the vast majority of Christians did not agree with the portrayal of Him. (I'm assuming you are referring to the cartoons. If not, please correct me.) I think it's important we not make the same mistakes as some non-muslims by grouping all people into one category.
Also, Paul does a great job of exposing his true intentions himself. He openly admits to using trickery, speaks against keeping the Laws of God, lacks knowledge that a man inspired of God should have and totally dismisses the true teachings of Jesus, pbuh.
For me, this is so painfully clear, but for people of Christian faith it is not. We can only pray that Allah, swt, will guide them to truth.
Wasalam,
Hana
"Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched...but are felt in the heart.
-Helen Keller
No, the majority of Christians DO believe that Muslims are evil, Islam is barbaric, and Muhammad is an anti-Christ. I hear criticism on a DAILY basis and I am simply sick and tired of it. If they want to fight dirty, we can do that as well, but exposing the TRUTH about the garbage religion known as Christianity. I will no longer stay silent.
Ok, sorry, I thought you were referring to the cartoons of Him.
However, those that bash and abuse Islam, (and yes, there are many), usually speak without knowledge so they make themselves look foolish. But, brother, there is no need to fight dirty...we have the truth. We know there are problems with Christian doctrine, but I wouldn't call Christianity garbage. Afterall, Jesus, pbuh, did receive the Injeel from Allah, swt., and regardless of the inaccuracies of the Bible, there are still some truths in there.
Alhamdulillah, brother...we have been rightly guided. Don't be upset with those that haven't been....yet Inshallah, these people who bash today could be our brothers and sisters in Islam tomorrow.
When they start to bash...end the conversation. The loss is not yours.
Wasalam,
Hana
"Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched...but are felt in the heart.
-Helen Keller
No, the majority of Christians DO believe that Muslims are evil, Islam is barbaric, and Muhammad is an anti-Christ. I hear criticism on a DAILY basis and I am simply sick and tired of it.
Yes but you live in Florida. That is hardly representative of all Christians.
If they want to fight dirty, we can do that as well, but exposing the TRUTH about the garbage religion known as Christianity. I will no longer stay silent.
I do not advise it myself, but if you want to, well, knock yourself out. Do you think there is the slightest chance that you will be able to dig up any dirt on Paul? I mean, if it comes down to a mud-throwing contest who do you think is going to come out looking worse?
Sister
I appreciate your info , but Ibn Kathir did mention to the tafseer for that verse 36:14, Anyway looking at the narration it goes back to Shuaib Al Jaba'e.
Christians claiming that we should follow Ibn Kathir and respect Paul for the reason of him mentioning are commiting an appeal to authority because they want us to beleive in what Kathir is mentioning.
However , according to something now I have to apply to my research method , I will not be commiting any fallacies towards myself . Because problem with most Umma today if they hear a scholar named etcetc said something then he is 100% correct.
Well Not anymore , If I see the commentators not mentioning anything from the prophet or quran then I will throw away their argument.
I know this may sound harsh but I beleive this is best way not to seclude yourself in doubt of argument and thoughts between what this scholar said or what this scholar said. So from now on Only what the Prophet SAW says I will do , any other sheiks imam whatever with no proof I will throw it away no matter who he is even a sahabe.
Allah knows best.
Yes, I agree with you. There are many armchair scholars and cyber scholars today. Obviously there are many highly respected scholars as well, but we can't just take everything at face value. We have to also take responsibility and ask questions too, and Islam always looks for proofs and it's our right to question.
It seems you've had a change of heart regarding the confusion over Paul. Alhamdulillah, brother, I'm glad to know this.
May Allah, swt, continue to guide you and us all. Ameen.
Wasalam,
Hana
"Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched...but are felt in the heart.
-Helen Keller
If anyone of you has deluded themselves into thinking that bashing other people's faith's are tolerated here then think again. As Muslims we should not stoop to such level. It is alright to question about different faith's in a good manner just as we'd expect non-muslims to address us. So please refrain from offending others and speaking in a foul manner. Least you should be held accountable on the day of resurrection for what you have written.
Brother Heiguo ,
You said that "There is almost nothing truthful on that site at all. It is a bundle of lies and distortions"
Well ok this is a very large claim got anything to proof your argument with???
Find a claim on that site. Look up the original claim. It is not hard. Almost any claim taken at random, but especially the most offensive ones, is likely to be wrong and can be shown as such with very little work.
Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
We do not have to prove the Bible is in error. We only need to prove the Qur'an is true. Attempting to prove something is wrong will usually back fire and tend to discredtit yourself.
Anybody who has studied debating or even taken any advanced science classes will tell you that you can not prove anything is false. We can not prove a negative concept.
If I were say that a flying saucer crashed into my house last night and I now have an alien creature living with me, there is no way you can prove that statement is false.
The burdan of proof is always on the one making a claim, they must present evidence that their own statement is true.
A Christian can not disprove the Qur'an. It is our responsibility to offer evidence it is true.
Likewise We can not prove the Bible contains error. It is up to the Christian to prove it is true.
Myself I am satisfied I have found enough evidence to prove at least to myself that the Qur'an is true. I can not find sufficient evidence to convince me the Bible is true. Therefore I believe Islam is the right path.
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Quote
Even after this most amazing vision, where does Paul go? Straight to the chosen disciples of Christ to learn the gospel? NOOO, he disappears for 3 years and reappears with his own doctrine. When he does manage to go to the chosen disciples of Jesus, pbuh, they didn't trust him and he was blasted many times for teaching false doctrine. He was never accepted by the true followers of Jesus, pbuh, but he did manage to convince many that the previous laws had been abolished, (even though Jesus, pbuh, clearly says He did not come to abolish the laws of the Prophets before Him, but to fulfill them), so their salvation was guaranteed. Who taught this? Who gave him this right? Paul admits many times his words were not inspired, ie: 1 Corinthians 7:25, he admits that he used trickery to gain followers, ie: Corinthians 9:19-21.
Don't be upset with those that haven't been....yet 
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Bookmarks