Muhammad said he was a prophet, therefore we have two possibilities; either he said the truth, or he was a liar and an imposter. Only one of these 2 can be true.
Let’s 1st look at the hypothesis that he was a liar and an imposter, that he himself invented the Quran, and that even though he was illiterate.
First what was Muhammad’s interest to create a new religion? Until the age of 40, he lived a happy and comfortable life with his rich wife Khadija, he was loved and respected for his honesty and morality by all of his tribe. Why would he have gone through 10 years of persecutions, hardships and reject from most of his tribe, what was his interest in going through so much suffering and persevering in the transmission of his message?
Until the end of his mission, even when he ruled almost the whole of the Arabic peninsula (a territory about 5 times the size of France), he always lived in the most complete destitution, sleeping on a bed of dried leaves, without a castle nor a palace or anything resembling it, without a single bodyguard, wearing clothes repaired by himself, shoes repaired by himself… Why did this “imposter” never used all his power to acquire wealth, palaces and luxurious gardens like other kings and heads of states?
And if he only had created this religion in reaction to Jews and Christians as some have claimed, why would about half of the Prophets mentioned in the Quran would be …Jewish? Why does the Quran praise so much Mary the mother of Jesus, a Jewish woman, but never mentions Muhammad’s mother, nor any member of his family?
In order to convince the Arabs, who were often in conflict with the Jews, wouldn’t it have been easier to denigrate all these Jews instead of praising them? Yes, but that’s neither what the Quran says, nor what Muhammad said.
Moreover, if you wanted to create and spread a new religion, surely you’d make it easy to practice, with as few constraints as possible, just like most idolatrous religions of the time. Would you try to impose the complete banning of alcohol, a whole month of fasting every year, 5 compulsory daily prayers at fixed times?… No, it wouldn’t make sense, because nobody would follow such a religion. But amazingly that’s what the Quran and Muhammad have done, without ever accepting any compromise to this message. And the most extraordinary is that this religion has triumphed over all the others !
If Muhammad was an imposter, what was his personal interest to have his people abide by these countless food restrictions, this entire month of fasting every year, these 5 compulsory prayers every day? Why did he insist so much on these restrictions, which personal interest did he get from it?
Of course none, it even made many tribes hesitate and sometimes abandon him. It really made his mission very much harder to fulfill, but yet he never accepted any compromise to this message.
In a famous episode of Muhammad’s life, a tribe called Thaqif accepted to convert to Islam and to obey Muhammad if he allowed them to keep some of their idols and to be exempted from the 5 daily prayers. Muhammad refused categorically. Rather than to acquire absolute power over this important tribe without any effort, he preferred to remain faithful to the message God had transmitted him.
But let’s still continue this hypothesis “Muhammad was an imposter and invented the Quran”, already shaken by these few facts; if Muhammad wasn’t guided by God, then we also have to admit that he was:
-The greatest Arabic writer in history ; because no one can deny that the Quran is the greatest literary piece ever written in this language. Still 14 Centuries later, if you go to any University to study Arabic literature, you’ll study mainly the Quran for its inimitable style and the beauty of its verses. God himself challenges anyone to produce anything like it (Quran 11:13,14). A challenge that still 14 Centuries later no human has been able to meet.
-A scientific genius; the reproduction of humans, of plants, the aquatic origin of all life, the orbits of the sun and the earth, the expansion of the Universe, these are a few of the scientific truths mentioned in the Quran, some of which discovered more than 1000 years later.
-A genius in medicine; thanks to its very strict hygiene and food restrictions, the Quran and the Sunna (the teachings of Muhammad) have allowed Muslim countries that abode by these laws to be spared from most great epidemics that wreaked havoc in other parts of the world. Still today, look at how the latest great epidemics, the AIDS virus, has strangely largely spared the Middle East, the Maghreb and the Arabic peninsula (all the Muslim countries), whereas it causes havoc in all the neighboring regions (Sub-Saharian Africa and South-Western Asia).
Everyone now recognizes the importance of diet, sexual non promiscuity and regular washing of one’s feet and hands to prevent the transmission of diseases. All these principles were dictated 14 Centuries ago by an illiterate Arab who had never studied medicine in his life.
-A genius in law ; The Quran and Muhammad’s Sunna are the first great legislation in history to elaborate such a comprehensive list of the rights and duties of all human beings (several thousands of pages covering a multitude of fields), about 11 Centuries before the West had any kind of counterpart with the Universal Declaration of the Human Rights, itself much less comprehensive than the vastness of domains broached by the Islamic Law.
-A speaker with amazing eloquence; thanks to his wisdom and eloquence, Muhammad managed to touch the heart of billions of human beings and to convince them that he was the Messenger of God, and that in spite of the horrendous persecutions that hit the first men and women that believed in his Mission. He was so much admired that tens of thousands of pages of his sermons and teachings were memorized by his companions and their descendants and put into writing to constitute what we now call the Sunna.
From which other great Man of History have we preserved so many teachings?
-A military genius; what Muhammad accomplished in this field in so little time, he who until the age of 52 (when God revealed him the verse ordering him to defend himself) had never shown any interest for war nor had had any experience whatsoever neither as a fighter or as a strategist, is really beyond the extraordinary.
He’s often compared to Alexander the Great and Napoleon, but what Muhammad accomplished is even more extraordinary, and that for the 2 following reasons:
-While the vast empires that Alexander and Napoleon established crumbled pretty quickly (a few decades after his death for Alexander and in his own lifetime for Napoleon, which shows how little support they had in the land they had conquered), the conquests of Islam not only didn’t crumble after Muhammad’s death, but continued to expand under his companions and successors. Even during the era of colonization, while the Europeans had managed to impose Christianity in most of their colonies, they never succeeded in Muslim countries, such was the attachment of Muslims to their religion. On the contrary, 14 Centuries later, in the whole of Europe and North America, it is islam and mosques are spreading like flooding waters.
-Another big difference: Greece already was a powerful nation when Alexander took power, and France was along with England the most powerful country in Europe when Napoleon came to power. In other words Alexander and Napoleon had right from the start huge means; a great, experienced and well-equipped army…
Muhammad had nothing, no army, no king or nation to support him, he was at the beginning completely alone. He had to convince his co-tribesmen and contemporaries one by one about the truth of his Mission, endure his tribe’s persecutions, build with his companions makeshift weapons to defend himself, then constitute a modest army with people who for many of them had no experience in fighting whatsoever.
From this modest start, and thanks to miraculous victories over armies largely superior in numbers and in means, he succeeded in spreading Islam over almost the whole of the Arabic Peninsula.
How could a man have achieved such a feat if he had not been protected and guided by God?
-A political genius; thanks to judicious treaties with other Arab tribes, intelligent strategic decisions both in and off the battlefield, Muhammad managed to spread Islam on most of the Arab peninsula, and make of this forgotten and desertic land the heart of a civilization that would later expand from Morocco to India !
And what other great King or Emperor managed to rule over such a large territory without ever owning any palace, any fortress, any bodyguard, relying only on his Lord and Creator to Guide him and Protect him?
History has seen a few literary geniuses, and also a few military geniuses, and a handful of geniuses in each of the fields I have mentioned.
But having a man excel in all these fields at once, surpassing all the geniuses from any period of History in such various and different domains, it is simply out of this world. And this coming from a man who had never followed any education and could hardly even read ! ! !
Is it reasonable to think that this man (who until the age of 40¾the beginning of his Mission¾ had never shown any interest for any of these fields) could have suddenly become such a genius?
Or is it more reasonable to think that something really extraordinary happened in this night of the year 610, that through the Angel Gabriel it is really God that addressed him and Guided him in a Divine Mission.
You can guess of course what my opinion is. An opinion based not only on faith but also on reason.
In conclusion, here’s what the great French poet Lamartine said after studying his life:
“If the greatness of a man is to be measured by comparing the smallness of his means with the greatness of his accomplishments, then what great man in History can seriously be compared to Muhammad."
Lamartine, Histoire de la Turquie.
In truth there are really obvious signs for people who meditate. (Quran 13:3)
Discussions like this all depend on whether one has faith in the source material. If you do, fair enough. If you don't, also fair enough, but don't expect to be able to convert people who do.
You can say the same about Christianity and Hinduism or Buddhism - all three being bigger (or at least similar sized) religions as Islam. In fact you do say something like that about Christianity. Why would Paul devote so much of his life to turning people around? An imposter would not have lived all those years in poverty - hell, Paul even got executed for it. Where did all those Christians come from if Paul was an imposter - significantly more Christians than Muslims I might point out. Who turned them around? Where did all those Christian theological text come from? You see my point?
Couldnt have taken the text outa my fingers more beautifully.
Anyhow, moving on I still see it illogical.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
Discussions like this all depend on whether one has faith in the source material. If you do, fair enough. If you don't, also fair enough, but don't expect to be able to convert people who do.
If that was addressed at me, I am not trying to convert anyone. I was asked directly.
Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
If that was addressed at me, I am not trying to convert anyone. I was asked directly.
It wasn't addressed to anybody in particular, but rather was a comment on these kinds of discussions as a whole. My apologies if I caused any confusion.
But it is possible that visions might be caused by illnesses and injuries.
Wouldn't that mean that it is hallucination? In either way, don't you think that it falls into #3, i.e the option that he thought he was a Prophet but he was mistaken?
Hmm, it's surprising. Since when did the burden of proof falls on us? We believe in Muhammad (pbuh) as the rightly guided prophet of God that have been send to all mankind. If someone said that he is inspired by the Devil, let him prove it FIRST! If he cant proove it, then I would very much preferrred him to at least keep his BIG mouth shut.
Peace...
Al-Asr (103.001-003) By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds,
and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth,
and of Patience and Constancy.
Heigou, pual did made alot of mistakes thru his journy, like when he changed the bible. However, Prophet Muhammed (SAW) never made any mistakes about his message, not the Quran nor his hadith. surely Prophet Muhhamed(PBUH) would of made many mistakes of he was an imposter. And end up executed like our friend Pual.
I fined it funny how one man who is claimed to be (so many things) can make such a holy book and can predict so many hadith with out any mistakes. isnt it essies to believe that Allah(SW) guided him thru his message? Like all the other prophets? what makes him different from all the other prophets?
Hmm, it's surprising. Since when did the burden of proof falls on us? We believe in Muhammad (pbuh) as the rightly guided prophet of God that have been send to all mankind. If someone said that he is inspired by the Devil, let him prove it FIRST! If he cant proove it, then I would very much preferrred him to at least keep his BIG mouth shut.
Peace...
If you believe in MOhammed being a messenger of G-d, and a person who believes this tells people about it.
Then it is that person who must prove it, because he is telling people 'Mohammed was a messenger of G-d' and if he is asked 'what makes you think he werent decieved by the Devil' then the person who is tleling people about MOhammed should answer!
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
If you believe in MOhammed being a messenger of G-d, and a person who believes this tells people about it.
Then it is that person who must prove it, because he is telling people 'Mohammed was a messenger of G-d' and if he is asked 'what makes you think he werent decieved by the Devil' then the person who is tleling people about MOhammed should answer!
Have anyone ever got a chance to actually see God Himself? Nope! But, people still believes in the existence of God.
Have anyone ever got a chance to actually see the Devil himself? Nope! But, people still believes in the existence of the Devil.
Have anyone ever got a chance to actually see heaven & hell? Nope! But, people still believes in the existence of heaven & hell.
Have anyone knows about life after death? Nobody have ever comes back from the dead and pronounce to us that there is indeed a life after death! Nope, but people still believes in the life after death.
All of these are a matter of preference of faith. Why must the burden of proof have to lie down with the muslims? If someone wants to make a mockery of Muhammad(pbuh) are deceived by the Devil, so let it be! I personally couldn't care less. The fact remains Muhammad (pbuh) is the one and only successfull person both on the religious & secular level. Not only he provide for the well being of the people, he provide them with a social organisation which people feel relatively secured and he provide them with one set of belief. No other person come even closed to him.
The truth can only be seek by the seekers of truth. Our roles is only in conveying the message. The rest is up to them and up to the Grace of God Almighty.
Peace...
Al-Asr (103.001-003) By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds,
and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth,
and of Patience and Constancy.
Hmm, it's surprising. Since when did the burden of proof falls on us? We believe in Muhammad (pbuh) as the rightly guided prophet of God that have been send to all mankind. If someone said that he is inspired by the Devil, let him prove it FIRST! If he cant proove it, then I would very much preferrred him to at least keep his BIG mouth shut.
There are several things worth saying to this. Of course the burden of proof does not fall on Muslims to justify what they believe - even to themsevles. If they are content to believe what they believe without thinking about it, no one would say they are not justified in doing so. However if you're going to try to convert people peacefully, you will need to explain to the satisfaction of the people you are trying to convert. That is, if you want me to believe that Muhammed was inspired by God you will have to produce an argument that convinces me - the burden of proof in that case is on you. I expect that proof in a formal sense is not available in either case, in which case the sensible thing in my opinion would be to keep an open mind. Either way it is wrong to be gratuitously offensive about anyone's religious beliefs so I agree with you on the last issue. But having said all of that, the world has changed and Muslims cannot force Christians and Jews and Hindus to be silent as they could when they were Dhimmis. They have access to the internet and often live outside the Muslim world. Robert Spencer, for example, comes from a Dhimmi family. You will have to deal with people who do not agree with you at some point or other, or you will have to close down all the satellite TV dishes, all the long wave radios, all the internet cafes and retreat into an extreme form of isolationism. Which would you prefer?
Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
There are several things worth saying to this. Of course the burden of proof does not fall on Muslims to justify what they believe - even to themsevles. If they are content to believe what they believe without thinking about it, no one would say they are not justified in doing so. However if you're going to try to convert people peacefully, you will need to explain to the satisfaction of the people you are trying to convert. That is, if you want me to believe that Muhammed was inspired by God you will have to produce an argument that convinces me - the burden of proof in that case is on you. I expect that proof in a formal sense is not available in either case, in which case the sensible thing in my opinion would be to keep an open mind. Either way it is wrong to be gratuitously offensive about anyone's religious beliefs so I agree with you on the last issue. But having said all of that, the world has changed and Muslims cannot force Christians and Jews and Hindus to be silent as they could when they were Dhimmis. They have access to the internet and often live outside the Muslim world. Robert Spencer, for example, comes from a Dhimmi family. You will have to deal with people who do not agree with you at some point or other, or you will have to close down all the satellite TV dishes, all the long wave radios, all the internet cafes and retreat into an extreme form of isolationism. Which would you prefer?
First of all, contrary to the belief, the muslims are not even trying to convert anybody. Their role is just to deliver the message. That's all. God explicitly says in the Quran:
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Qur'an 2:256)
We are here in this forum only to learn from each other. Not to believe in anything. Afterall, God has bestowed reason and intellect on mankind, it is their own duty to use it to seek for the truth. In your case for example, you have heard about Islam and your immediate choice ito engage in this forum. To engage in this forum or not, is entirely up to you. Nobody ever forced you to make such a choice. To some extent, the message of Islam is conveyed in the same manners.
Peace...
Last edited by Syed Nizam; 06-05-2006 at 01:57 PM.
Al-Asr (103.001-003) By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds,
and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth,
and of Patience and Constancy.
Have anyone ever got a chance to actually see God Himself? Nope! But, people still believes in the existence of God.
Why do you believe in G-d??
format_quote Originally Posted by Syed Nizam
Have anyone ever got a chance to actually see the Devil himself? Nope! But, people still believes in the existence of the Devil.
Why do you believe in the Devil??
format_quote Originally Posted by Syed Nizam
Have anyone ever got a chance to actually see heaven & hell? Nope! But, people still believes in the existence of heaven & hell.
Why do you believe in heave and hell??
format_quote Originally Posted by Syed Nizam
Have anyone knows about life after death? Nobody have ever comes back from the dead and pronounce to us that there is indeed a life after death! Nope, but people still believes in the life after death.
Why Do you believe in life after death??
format_quote Originally Posted by Syed Nizam
All of these are a matter of preference of faith. Why must the burden of proof have to lie down with the muslims?
What makes someone prefer a faith over the other?
You see a Muslim should know why they are Muslim over other faiths, why is it that your Muslim and not Christian.
It is illogical to think that G-d would send a religion without providing some distiction in it, so that His true seekers can distinguish it from other faiths.
This is why Mohammed peace be upon him, was given Miracles, so that the people shall believe, it Mohammed was to just say, 'I am a prophet from G-d' and he had no miracles then the people would have no reason to follow him, but it was through the mercy of Almighty G-d that miracles came so that people would know the truth if they wanted to, and it is the same with the other Prophets, peace be upon them.
So if G-d gave prophets miracles in order to support them, then wouldnt it be logical for you to call the people to islam and mention those same miracles??
format_quote Originally Posted by Syed Nizam
If someone wants to make a mockery of Muhammad(pbuh) are deceived by the Devil, so let it be! I personally couldn't care less.
If Allah goes out of his way to tell the people in the Quran that Mohammed is not possed by demons and that Mohammed does not speak of his own will. Is it not right for us as Muslims to relate this to the people, instaed of 'not caring'
16:125 YUSUFALI: Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
The best we can do is this, respond to them the way Almighty G-d responded to the people, He supported Mohammed with Miracles and so on, the least we can do is show the people those miracles.
But I agree, that:
28:56 YUSUFALI: It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
Salam Aleykum, I hope you can be patient with me, and forgive me if I have misunderstood your text in any way.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
It is illogical to think that G-d would send a religion without providing some distiction in it, so that His true seekers can distinguish it from other faiths.
Agreed. That's why the Quran was revealed to the whole mankind.
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
This is why Mohammed peace be upon him, was given Miracles, so that the people shall believe, it Mohammed was to just say, 'I am a prophet from G-d' and he had no miracles then the people would have no reason to follow him, but it was through the mercy of Almighty G-d that miracles came so that people would know the truth if they wanted to, and it is the same with the other Prophets, peace be upon them.
So if G-d gave prophets miracles in order to support them, then wouldnt it be logical for you to call the people to islam and mention those same miracles?
Not Agree. As u can see, people who choose to make a mockery of Islam will go to great length to achieve that. Miracles is not a pre-equisite of someone to have faith. Look what have happened to Jesus (pbuh) who is worshipped by the mass just for performing miracles. So, what's the point of having miracles anyway?
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
But I agree, that:
28:56 YUSUFALI: It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
Agreed. My point exactly! Our tasks is only to deliver the message, to invite them to Islam. That's all. The other is up to them. To believe or not to believe. To seek further for the truth or not to seek. Everything is up to the individual himself, including us, muslims.
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Salam Aleykum, I hope you can be patient with me, and forgive me if I have misunderstood your text in any way.
No problem there. We are here only to learn & to know of each other.....
Peace...
Al-Asr (103.001-003) By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds,
and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth,
and of Patience and Constancy.
Agreed. That's why the Quran was revealed to the whole mankind.
And we should explain what we know of it!
Mohammed, peace be upon him, didnt jus recite it and not explain it, he explained it. So similarly what we know we should explain of it and show people the miracles included in the quran.
format_quote Originally Posted by Syed Nizam
Not Agree. As u can see, people who choose to make a mockery of Islam will go to great length to achieve that. Miracles is not a pre-equisite of someone to have faith. Look what have happened to Jesus (pbuh) who is worshipped by the mass just for performing miracles. So, what's the point of having miracles anyway?
Of course there will always be people who will not believe, but why did G-d support the prophets with miracles?? Look at the Miracles of the splitting of the moon, when the arabs asked for a miracle and then one was given, it was a sign from Almighty G-d, whether they believed it or not then was their problem, but we should as Muhammed did, show the miracles as proof.
If people turn it around and start worshipin mohammed because of that then it is only their fault, not the fault of the prophet or us or Allah.
And Jesus isnt worshiped because of his miracles if that were so the people of the OT would be worshipped too.
format_quote Originally Posted by Syed Nizam
Agreed. My point exactly! Our tasks is only to deliver the message, to invite them to Islam. That's all. The other is up to them. To believe or not to believe. To seek further for the truth or not to seek. Everything is up to the individual himself, including us, muslims.
Yep deliver it, but as the other quote also says in a way that is best we both agree on that.
Not jus give people quran but explain stuff and show them the proofs.
format_quote Originally Posted by Syed Nizam
Peace...
Salam aleykum wa rhametula wa berekatu
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
i'd bet my life he was an imposter. the whole story is absolutely preposterous. There is only blind faith to support such a myth. If I told you that the angel Gabriel visited me and mumbled "god's" will to me I would be taken to the nearest nut-hut.
salama
if u think our prophet was an "imposter" (astagfirulah) then why DO U SAY THAT UR MUSLIM IN UR SETTINGS???
I find it strange that christians may say that the prophet (saw) was an imposter and inspired by a demon or satan, especially when the Quran and his sayings speaks so highly of the earlier prophets that were sent to the same chiristians and Jews. Muslims can claim the same about their prophets, but we dare not do it beacue of the fact that some of them are mentioned in the same Quran.
If the Quran was from a man inspired by satan... why would the Quran re-emphasized the messages that the earlier prophets brought?
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