Jesus' Crucifixion

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John....not ONE was alive at the time of Jesus, pbuh.

YUSUFALI: When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

Paul, however, was most certainly alive and spent that time killing and persecuting followers of Jesus, pbuh, and wanting nothing more than to see Jesus, pbuh, dead. The writers of these books are unknown, therefore not even the oral tradition can be traced back for authenticity.

Paul never met Jesus, pbuh, and even after his miraculous vision he didn't turn to the chosen Apostles to learn....he went into hiding for 3 years! It was much later before he even met with Peter and James. The true followers of Jesus, pbuh, never accepted Paul or his doctrine and many believe they were directly responsible for his death.

Sound like a vision from God turned his life around and he became a messenger.

None of the Apostles were witnesses to a crucifixion, "They forsook Him and fled" (both Mark and Matthew confirm this). There are no eyewitness accounts at all.

Crucifixion if I understand it correctly was a public execution in a highly visible place. The fact the apostles fled does not mean that others did not witness the crucifixion, nor that the apostles did not watch from a distance. Acts says it was widly known.

Lk 24:13 Now behold, two of them were traveling that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15 So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them.
16 But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him. 17 And He said to them, "What kind of conversation is this that you have with one another as you walk and are sad?" 18 Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, "Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?" 19 And He said to them, "What things?" So they said to Him, "The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 "and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. 21 "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. 22 "Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. 23 "When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive. 24 "And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see."
25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

The Jews said they killed Him, the Apostles believed it. Why else would they be frightened when Jesus, pbuh, was to come to them later?

It seems quite clear. The apostles were human and outside of Lazarus, had not experienced a ressurection. The apostles were disciples of Christ, meaning they were in training. Much of their learning came after remembering Christ's words and reflecting on past events. I do not find fear to be an abnormal reaction to seeing someone you thought had been crucified alive.

They expected Him to be dead and thought He was a ghost. However, Jesus, pbuh, tells them He is not a spirit. He tells them a spirit does not have flesh like He does. He goes so far as to ask for food. A spirit doesn't have the need for food.So, obviously, He never died.

There are many who eat without needing to eat. For spirits, it may be part of the enjoyment of Heaven, unless the Quran is incorrect.

036.057
YUSUFALI: (Every) fruit (enjoyment) will be there for them; they shall have whatever they call for;
PICKTHAL: Theirs the fruit (of their good deeds) and theirs (all) that they ask;
SHAKIR: They shall have fruits therein, and they shall have whatever they desire.

He was very much alive... Call it whatever you like, mistranslation, misquote or inaccuracy....the facts speak for themselves. If He died, as Christian doctrine suggests, why did He try to convince the disciples otherwise and why did He tell Mary Magdalen He wasn't dead? He was, however, very much alive as the Qur'an tells us and never died, but was taken up.

Actually He was trying to convince them He had risen from the dead. He is still trying to convince Muslims of this today.

Lk 16:19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

i'm more confused now than i was before. I thought muslims believe that he was taken up to heaven before being tortured/crucified. If so, how would he appear to the apostles alive?

And....to the best of my knowledge, all 12 apostles were there with Jesus at the last supper so of course Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were alive when he was alive.

Again...I"m not understanding what exactly you all believe because one person is saying one thing and another is saying something different.

format_quote Originally Posted by doodlebug

i'm more confused now than i was before. I thought muslims believe that he was taken up to heaven before being tortured/crucified. If so, how would he appear to the apostles alive?

And....to the best of my knowledge, all 12 apostles were there with Jesus at the last supper so of course Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were alive when he was alive.

Again...I"m not understanding what exactly you all believe because one person is saying one thing and another is saying something different.

Not to mention with scars on His hands, feet, and side.

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

I don't want to comment on your post at all except for this portion partially because I am not part of this debate and partially b/c it wasn't addressed to me....
the verse you are referring to goes in a series like this
إِنَّ أَصْحَابَ الْجَنَّةِ الْيَوْمَ فِي شُغُلٍ فَاكِهُونَ {55}
[Yusufali 36:55] Verily the Companions of the Garden shall that Day have joy in all that they do;
)
هُمْ وَأَزْوَاجُهُمْ فِي ظِلَالٍ عَلَى الْأَرَائِكِ مُتَّكِؤُونَ {56}
[Yusufali 36:56] They and their associates will be in groves of (cool) shade, reclining on Thrones (of dignity);

لَهُمْ فِيهَا فَاكِهَةٌ وَلَهُم مَّا يَدَّعُونَ {57}
[Yusufali 36:57] (Every) fruit (enjoyment) will be there for them; they shall have whatever they call for;


when we if God wills it go to heaven, we will NOT BE IN "spirit" form the verses above clearly speak of the Gardens .. ... same ones where ADAM and his wife once dwelled... same ones where they enjoyed and ate fruits and whatever else... we will live there eternally...it isn't Hades it is heaven... That is God's promise... I don't see how the verse relates at all to your argument... if interested at all you should read the whole passage to develop a more thorough understanding as opposed to a myopic view to make a point......
peace

If, as you say Islam believes that people are in paradise in the flesh, then your point is valid. I presume you also believe people are in Hell in the flesh since the verses on judgement follow the verses on the garden. If this is so, then God will work a miracle in maintaining them physically alive while he toasts them.

036.063
YUSUFALI: "This is the Hell of which ye were (repeatedly) warned!
PICKTHAL: This is hell which ye were promised (if ye followed him).
SHAKIR: This is the hell with which you were threatened.

036.064
YUSUFALI: "Embrace ye the (fire) this Day, for that ye (persistently) rejected (Truth)."
PICKTHAL: Burn therein this day for that ye disbelieved.
SHAKIR: Enter into it this day because you disbelieved.

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

[Yusufaliufali 36:56] They and their associates will be in groves of cool shade, reclining on Thrones of dignity.

I wonder how eskimos would interpret this verse?

People who dwell in the hot desert would find this verse very attractive. It is clear this verse is directed at people who live in hot climates - the Middle East.

This means the message

1 - did not come from God or;

2 - God forgot about those who live in cold countries.

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

God stated he will keep replacing their skin whenever it blisters off so they will feel pain anew...

Praise to Allah!

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

yup... people in hell are in the flesh.. if you study science you'll know that pain can only be felt during first and 2nd degree burns and the miracles of this is that God stated he will keep replacing their skin whenever it blisters off so they will feel pain anew...

Jesus says punishment of evil follows resurrection.

Jn 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 "and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

The Quran likewise says the day of judgement follows this life.

002.085
YUSUFALI: After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
PICKTHAL: Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression? - and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you - Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
SHAKIR: Yet you it is who slay your people and turn a party from among you out of their homes, backing each other up against them unlawfully and exceeding the limits; and if they should come to you, as captives you would ransom them-- while their very turning out was unlawful for you. Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other? What then is the re ward of such among you as do this but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be sent back to the most grievous chastisement, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

What am I to make of this doug?

1. Hana_Aku said Jesus was alive because spirits don't eat. I cited a verse from the Quran which I believe indicated people in Heaven will enjoy fruit.
2. You said the reference to a garden in the verse indicates people are in heaven in the flesh since Adam was in the garden in the flesh, and further went on to say people are in Hell in the flesh.
3. Both the Quran and the Bible say one must be resurrected to experience Heaven and Hell.