I wonder if there is an answer to this question...
When you say (as John Chapter 1 says according to some Christians) that God became a man... what do you mean?
Do you mean that God was God, but then He became a man and now He's not God anymore...
Or do you mean God became a man, but He was still God?
If the second explanation is true, then what does that mean? The reason I ask is because God and man are two seperate things... For example God is immortal. No one can kill God. But man is immortal. Thats why he's a man. So if God became man, which was He? Mortal or immortal?
Really I am not trying to be tongue in cheek. Im just trying to discover what you mean when you say God became a man. Does that mean that God became man so He wasn't God anymore, or does that mean that god became a man and was still God and so when He cut off His fingernails He was cutting off little pieces of God? Because neither option makes sense or even seems to be possible... so is there a third option I'm not thinking about?
I wonder if there is an answer to this question...
When you say (as John Chapter 1 says according to some Christians) that God became a man... what do you mean?
Do you mean that God was God, but then He became a man and now He's not God anymore...
Or do you mean God became a man, but He was still God?
If the second explanation is true, then what does that mean? The reason I ask is because God and man are two seperate things... For example God is immortal. No one can kill God. But man is mortal. Thats why he's a man. So if God became man, which was He? Mortal or immortal?
Really I am not trying to be tongue in cheek. Im just trying to discover what you mean when you say God became a man. Does that mean that God became man so He wasn't God anymore, or does that mean that god became a man and was still God and so when He cut off His fingernails He was cutting off little pieces of God? Because neither option makes sense or even seems to be possible... so is there a third option I'm not thinking about?
what do you think it means.. it means that the Second person in the Trinity the Son of God (the Word of God) became Fully man as well as Him being Fully God.
Now I know that everytime(if this is the right word for me to say) that God has to give up some type of power because of time(sorry I lost my mind... hopefully you know what I mean).
as Scripture says
in Hebrew 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in everyway, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
in 2:17
atonement meaning in order for Christ to turn aside the wrath of God against guilty sinners, he had to become one with them and die as a substitute for them.
Muslim Convert, I have answered that question several times.
Answer me this:
Could God NOT become a man if he chose to?
If God chose to become a man, would that man not be perfect?
Would that man not be 100% man and 100% God?
If you will answer any of those questions, in any sort of reasonable manner (Not a slam against you, it is just that I have given answers to the folks on this forum that were rejected for no logical reason), I will do my best to engage in a fruitful discourse with you.
That answer is not satisfactory but w/e floats your boat.
Why would God want to be man to begin with?
What did he have to be "born?"
Why was he "crucified?" Couldnt he destroy the Romans if he wished?
Why would any sane man believe a human is the son of God? if I said I was the son of God, would you beieve me. It's true that he made miracles, but so did Moses and Jacob.
I respect your faith, but sometimes it disturbs me when Christians cannot explain the ogic behind their beliefs.
Because men feel pain. Supernatural beings do not. Jesus was tortured and crucified. It was very painfull.
If you were a father you would understand that losing a son is also painfull. The Christian belief is that God sent his son to be tortured and crucified.
I understand that even though I don't believe it myself.
I wonder if there is an answer to this question...
When you say (as John Chapter 1 says according to some Christians) that God became a man... what do you mean?
Do you mean that God was God, but then He became a man and now He's not God anymore...
Or do you mean God became a man, but He was still God?
If the second explanation is true, then what does that mean? The reason I ask is because God and man are two seperate things... For example God is immortal. No one can kill God. But man is mortal. Thats why he's a man. So if God became man, which was He? Mortal or immortal?
Really I am not trying to be tongue in cheek. Im just trying to discover what you mean when you say God became a man. Does that mean that God became man so He wasn't God anymore, or does that mean that god became a man and was still God and so when He cut off His fingernails He was cutting off little pieces of God? Because neither option makes sense or even seems to be possible... so is there a third option I'm not thinking about?
In a way mankind is kind of mortal and immortality, we are mortal on Earth and when we die we hope to achieve immortality and an everlasting life with God.
Jesus always was immortal, then he became mortal and died, now he is immortal for ever.
If God can create the universe and life from nothing, this should not be beyond God.
In a way the questions about Christ’s divinity are a way of giving Christians a greater hope of life after death.
In the spirit of striving for a greater interfaith friendship
Muslim Convert, when you use the word mortal, you do understand that mortal refers to the death of the physical but not the spiritual, correct?
Your spirit survives death as well. What exactly, logically speaking, about Jesus being God and having a mortal body and an immortal spirit, are you having trouble with?
A very good post Eric, we do have the hope of immortality, for us Christians it is the accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior that turns that hope into reality.
In the Muslim faith, it is Islam that they see as doing the very same thing.
That is why I do not understand Muslim Convert’s line of thinking.
If you were a father you would understand that losing a son is also painfull. The Christian belief is that God sent his son to be tortured and crucified.
How is that possible? Believing that would debunk the notion that Christianity is monotheistic. Either Jesus is Gid Himself or he is a human being. I tend to believe the latter.
My question to Christians:
If I said I was the son of God, would you believe me?
Even though I am Muslim, I often tend to question the "virgin birth" notion as well.
When you say (as John Chapter 1 says according to some Christians) that God became a man... what do you mean?
Do you mean that God was God, but then He became a man and now He's not God anymore...
Or do you mean God became a man, but He was still God?
If the second explanation is true, then what does that mean? The reason I ask is because God and man are two seperate things... For example God is immortal. No one can kill God. But man is immortal. Thats why he's a man. So if God became man, which was He? Mortal or immortal?
Really I am not trying to be tongue in cheek. Im just trying to discover what you mean when you say God became a man. Does that mean that God became man so He wasn't God anymore, or does that mean that god became a man and was still God and so when He cut off His fingernails He was cutting off little pieces of God? Because neither option makes sense or even seems to be possible... so is there a third option I'm not thinking about?
Looking forward to your answers...
I suspect you have been on the forum long enough to have seen these questions asked and answered many, many times. But the answers never seem to get through. I wish I had the links to all the other answers, because one more attempt may be just a futile, but here goes....
First, you have to understand the Trinity---ONE God, Three Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). It was the SON who, though equally GOD with the Father and Spirit, took UPON Himself flesh (John 1:1,14). The Father did not take upon HIMSELF flesh; the Spirit did not take upon HIMSELF flesh. ONLY the SON took upon Himself flesh. The FATHER sent the SON to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14). The WAY the Son was the Savior of the world was by dying for the sins of the world. In order to do that HE had to take upon Himself mortal flesh capable of dying. His FLESH died, not His Deity. He was always GOD (clothed in the mortal, fleshly body), and yet He was also MAN because of that flesh. Phil. 2 explains it this way:
5. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The above is the New King James Version. The New American Standard Version renders the Greek this way:
5. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus, though wrapped in flesh in order to die for our sins, never ceased to be God (i.e., possessing Deity as to His substance, nature, or essence, which never died and never will die). And in that flesh, He showed total submission and obedience to the Father, as an example and model for us (the opposite of what Adam and Eve did).
So let's review, as we answer your specific questions:
Do you mean that God was God, but then He became a man and now He's not God anymore...
Jesus was/is God and always will be, whether in the original "form of God" (pure spirit, no flesh), or as He was when He walked this earth before going to the Cross (Deity with mortal flesh), or as He is now (Deity in a glorified, immortal resurrection body).
Or do you mean God became a man, but He was still God?
Yes.
If the second explanation is true, then what does that mean? The reason I ask is because God and man are two seperate things... For example God is immortal. No one can kill God. But man is immortal. Thats why he's a man. So if God became man, which was He? Mortal or immortal?
God in the Person of Jesus Christ became mortal in order to die for our sins.
Really I am not trying to be tongue in cheek. Im just trying to discover what you mean when you say God became a man. Does that mean that God became man so He wasn't God anymore, or does that mean that god became a man and was still God and so when He cut off His fingernails He was cutting off little pieces of God? Because neither option makes sense or even seems to be possible... so is there a third option I'm not thinking about?
When He cut off His fingernails, He was cutting off little pieces of His flesh, not little pieces of God. His fingernails were not His Deity; they were part of His mortal flesh that was the outer "form of a servant" or "likeness of men" (see Phil 2:7, quoted above).
The gist of the answers I am getting are, "The spirit part of Jesus was God and the body part was man..." -Is this correct?
I suppose. There definitely is a distinction between the material part (the body) and the immaterial part (whether it's called "spirit" or divine nature or deity or whatever), because Jesus said, in Matt. 26:41, "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.'' Also, the material part or body began when Mary, a virgin, conceived in her womb by the power of the Holy Spirit, etc., whereas the immaterial part HAD no beginning; it was/is eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. Jesus' Deity did not begin at conception; it had no beginning because it was/is eternal.
I suppose. There definitely is a distinction between the material part (the body) and the immaterial part (whether it's called "spirit" or divine nature or deity or whatever), because Jesus said, in Matt. 26:41, "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.'' Also, the material part or body began when Mary, a virgin, conceived in her womb by the power of the Holy Spirit, etc., whereas the immaterial part HAD no beginning; it was/is eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. Jesus' Deity did not begin at conception; it had no beginning because it was/is eternal.
Peace
Well if this is true, then there is no ultimate sacrifice. If the soul part lived forever, and is immortal, but the man part is mortal and died, then ultimately what "Died for your sins" is an empty human body.
Well if this is true, then there is no ultimate sacrifice. If the soul part lived forever, and is immortal, but the man part is mortal and died, then ultimately what "Died for your sins" is an empty human body.
What "died for our sins" is the only part of Jesus that COULD die, and it was hardly "empty"! It contained His precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:
18. knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
19. but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
That was a fulfillment of all the O.T. types and sacrifices.
Leviticus 17:11. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."
Did you see the movie, The Passion of the Christ? Aside from some of the Catholic additions not found in Scripture, it did give you some idea of the suffering Christ went through in making that sacrifice for our sins. If that were ALL He went through, it would be terribly wrong to say He didn't make the ultimate sacrifice for us. There was another aspect of it that The Passion does not really depict---the agony of the sinless Son of God bearing all the sins of the world, from the first sin of Adam and Eve to the last sin that will ever be committed by mankind down to the end of the age, and being forsaken in that moment by His Father, the Holy God Who has "purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness" (Habakkuk 1:13). That is why Christ on the cross quoted David in Psalm 22:1---"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" It was because of all those sins that His Father "forsook" Him in that instant, not wanting to look upon sin, OUR sin. BUT, as Isaiah said, "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the travail of His soul, and be satisfied" (Isaiah 53:10-11). All that the Father and the Son went through for YOU is amazing beyond words. What is your response? To fall down on your knees in humble, awestruck amazement? Or to continue in your unbelief and, thus, in your sins, to face Jesus Himself as your Judge? It is your choice.
What "died for our sins" is the only part of Jesus that COULD die, and it was hardly "empty"! It contained His precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:
18. knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
19. but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
That was a fulfillment of all the O.T. types and sacrifices.
Leviticus 17:11. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."
Did you see the movie, The Passion of the Christ? Aside from some of the Catholic additions not found in Scripture, it did give you some idea of the suffering Christ went through in making that sacrifice for our sins. If that were ALL He went through, it would be terribly wrong to say He didn't make the ultimate sacrifice for us. There was another aspect of it that The Passion does not really depict---the agony of the sinless Son of God bearing all the sins of the world, from the first sin of Adam and Eve to the last sin that will ever be committed by mankind down to the end of the age, and being forsaken in that moment by His Father, the Holy God Who has "purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness" (Habakkuk 1:13). That is why Christ on the cross quoted David in Psalm 22:1---"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" It was because of all those sins that His Father "forsook" Him in that instant, not wanting to look upon sin, OUR sin. BUT, as Isaiah said, "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the travail of His soul, and be satisfied" (Isaiah 53:10-11). All that the Father and the Son went through for YOU is amazing beyond words. What is your response? To fall down on your knees in humble, awestruck amazement? Or to continue in your unbelief and, thus, in your sins, to face Jesus Himself as your Judge? It is your choice.
Peace
Thats all fine and good, but if the blood of Jesus (Saas) is the man part (the flesh) -and the soul is the God part... then we are back to step one. If all that died was the body of Jesus, then all that died for your sins, the "ultimate sacrifice" is a human body. Not God. God didn't die for your sins. A body did.
Muslim Convert "If all that died was the body of Jesus, then all that died for your sins, the "ultimate sacrifice" is a human body. Not God. God didn't die for your sins. A body did".
What is death if not the dieing of the physical? (There is a spiritual death, for many, as well, but man is only destined to experience that after the physical death.)
How could God experience death if not bodily? (I know you reject that, but you are asking about the reasoning behind Christian beliefs.)
If all things are held together by God’s will, then if God experienced spiritual death, then all things would become undone if God’s spirit dies.
As to a different part of what you are asking about, Christian teachings say that Adam was not subject to death when he was first created.
I am curious about Islam’s teachings concerning this last part.
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