i kno this may sound like a stupid question or may have been asked before but i just wanted to know.
What is the proof from the bible that Jesus isnt a muslim? I mean he forbade pork, worshipped one God, ok he did consume whine but so did the muslims until it was forbidden so via revelation.
Whats the proof that jesus wasnt muslim?
PS: This is just to help me understand something a bit better
Last edited by IbnAbdulHakim; 10-24-2006 at 06:04 PM.
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My tears testify that i have a heart
yet i feel me and shaytan never part
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You see islamic belief is that islam was around since the time of Adam.
Yes.
Monotheism is basically islam, to truelly believe and worship one God.
I can see how Islam could be considered an extension of monotheism, but the two concepts are surely different.
So i cant find one single thing which proves that jesus wasnt a muslim.
If you're asking was Jesus someone who submitted fully to the one true god, then he was a Muslim in that sense.
But that is not all that is meant by the name Muslim today. A Muslim today is a member of the religious movement founded by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Although this did indeed include elements of traditional monotheism as it existed to that point, Islam is a refinement and embellishment of it according to the interpretations and examples from the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). By the sheer force of history, Jesus cannot have been a Muslim of this type, since the very concept of 'Muslim' would not exist in the modern sense until the first convert recited the shahada under the apostolate of Muhammad (pbuh).
It may very well be because i have done extremely little research, that is why im asking now.
Nabi 'Isa 'alayhissalaam has never mentioned himself as a Christian. No verse in the Bible can prove otherwise. However, he fulfilled the pre-requisites of a Muslim.
When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. (Q 3:52)
Prophet Muhammad professed himself as a Muslim and the Messenger of Allah, and can never be equated as a Christian.
Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will). (Q 3:64)
Last edited by - Qatada -; 10-26-2006 at 12:09 PM.
Hi glo.
May i ask, how come jesus (peace be upon him) never asked people to worship him, if he was God anyway?
Peace.
Hi Fi_Sabilillah
I do not assume to know God's reasons for his actions - that would be very proud and pretentious!
I can only tell you what Christianity teaches me, and what I believe to be true.
I won't go into why (according to Christian belief) Jesus came into the world - that would lead into original sin, which we have discussed in other threads.
(Edited: I didn't mean it would lead into original sin, but into the topic of original sin ... just thought I ought to clarify! )
I believe the answer to your question can be found right at the beginning of Jesus' ministry, when he spent 40 days fasting in the desert.
You may know the story of satan tempting Jesus:
The Temptation of Jesus
Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor."All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"
Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him. (Matthew 4: 1-11)
As satan knew, and Christians still believe, Jesus could at any point have displayed and used his divine power.
Even at the cross he was taunted to display his powers, and he never did:
In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. "He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! Let this Christ, this King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe." Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him (Mark 15: 31-32)
The point is, that Jesus (despite being God), came to live as man.
I understand that the very thought of God humbling himself to become a human being and - worse still! - dying a terrible death, is utterly outrageous and even blasphemous in the Islamic view ... but it is the very centre of Christianity.
Jesus never intended to use his divine powers or to be recognised as God whilst living as a human being.
It was not until after his death that his full glory would become evident - not only to his own followers, but to others too:
The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, "Surely this man was the Son of God!" (Matthew 15: 38-39)
I think this is the best I can do to explain my faith.
I am - together with everybody else - at God's mercy ... for all I ever strive to do is to serve him and please him!
Peace
Last edited by glo; 10-26-2006 at 01:11 PM.
Reason: for clarification
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
Thanks for quoting your evidences from the bible. It gave me a better understanding of what the bible teaches.
If i was to read that without having knowledge that Jesus was 'God' - then i would naturally be inclined to believe that Jesus was a special creation of God, who God had blessed, who satan envied so much that he wanted this special creation to bow to him to show that he (satan) is powerful enough to persuade this special creation to worship him, or to submit to the evils of this world.
That's really similar to how the satan's/devils try to lead mankind astray from the right path, and they work hard on making the path tough for the Messengers of Allaah Almighty.
Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah,
Peace be upon those who follow guidance,
Peace and blessings be upon Jesus son of Mary and his mother,
And Immune be he from anything falsly attributed to him.
I will only go into so much detail due to the fact that you, Glo, seem very well versed with the Gospels.
I have just some personal confusion, and difference of understanding.
The question was:
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
how come jesus (peace be upon him) never asked people to worship him, if he was God anyway?
And an answer:
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I believe the answer to your question can be found right at the beginning of Jesus' ministry, when he spent 40 days fasting in the desert.
You may know the story of satan tempting Jesus:
As satan knew, and Christians still believe, Jesus could at any point have displayed and used his divine power.
I disagree, with the statement that Jesus could at any point have used any divine power, rather I think he would only be able to use his power if G-d allowed. He could of his own self 'do nothing'
The answers Jesus gave to the request's of Satan are answers that any normal person would give, for example, if a Christian is asked to take the 'falsification' test, they would naturally say, 'Do not put G-d at test'
So it could be possible that either Jesus, did not have the ability to just initiate divine power at his own will, rather only when G-d allowed him.
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Even at the cross he was taunted to display his powers, and he never did:
The point is, that Jesus (despite being God), came to live as man.
Again, who said he could use the power?
Reasons for not using the power could be two, that I can think of:
1 He could not use divine power
He cannot use the power without G-d's acceptance, I say this because, we see that Jesus prayed so much before hand, for the cup to pass Him.
Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
He also before hand said:
Matthew 26:38:
"My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death..
This was the state of Jesus, maybe he was 'hoping' for help. He felt helpless, it seems, listen to what he says on the Cross:
Matthew:27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[c] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Jesus was helpless, he could not use divine power, he waited for G-d to help him, yet he felt 'forsaken'. This wasn't Jesus being humble while powerful, this was Jesus, a creation, being in need and feeling that G-d had left him.
2.That Jesus understood his mission, so he took the abuse not because he was being humble but rather because he knew that it was part of G-d's greater plan.
The reason I say this, is in response to, "Even at the cross he was taunted to display his powers, and he never did" if he had shown the power which they wanted to see, i.e that he 'save' himself.
"He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself!
Imagine, if he had saved himself it would go against his own teaching, for he rebuked peter for even trying to 'comfort' Jesus:
Matthew 16:21-23
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
Jesus knew his mission, you claim the reason he didn't show powers was because he was humble, rather it was because to save himself would have been a work of Satan, he knew G-ds plan!
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Jesus never intended to use his divine powers or to be recognised as God whilst living as a human being.
It was not until after his death that his full glory would become evident - not only to his own followers, but to others too.
Or it could be that Jesus is not G-d, rather "a man accredited by God to his people by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among his people through him"
Maybe the reason why Jesus did not claim to be G-d whilst living (also after the resurection I believe) is because he was not G-d.
Even after his death, at a time where his 'full glory' was evident, he was never even then called G-d.
That's just my understanding, I don't wanna impose my views on anyone, just thought it would be nice for me to understand more by posing my contrasting views
"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
I will only go into so much detail due to the fact that you, Glo, seem very well versed with the Gospels.
The only reason I am getting so well versed with the Gospels, Isa, is because people in this forum keep asking me questions and challenging my faith!
I disagree, with the statement that Jesus could at any point have used any divine power, rather I think he would only be able to use his power if G-d allowed. He could of his own self 'do nothing'
The answers Jesus gave to the request's of Satan are answers that any normal person would give, for example, if a Christian is asked to take the 'falsification' test, they would naturally say, 'Do not put G-d at test'
So it could be possible that either Jesus, did not have the ability to just initiate divine power at his own will, rather only when G-d allowed him.
[...]
Or it could be that Jesus is not G-d, rather "a man accredited by God to his people by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among his people through him"
Maybe the reason why Jesus did not claim to be G-d whilst living (also after the resurection I believe) is because he was not G-d.
[...]
Clearly Jesus had divine powers!
Satan knew this, when he tried to tempt Jesus into using them:
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" (Matthew 4)
The spirits, which he drove out during his ministry years, knew it too:
"What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!" (Mark 1:24)
When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!" (Luke 8:28)
And, of course, Jesus himself knew it:
"Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" (Matthew 26: 53-54) From your own quote in another thread
But I guess our difference in opinion does not lie with whether Jesus had special powers or not - but whether he had them because he had 'a special connection with God', or because he was the Son of God.
For me, as a Christian, the entire Bible as a whole speaks utterly and without doubt of Jesus' divinity!
For you, obviously, your journey has taken you on a different route towards Islam.
Since we cannot prove or disprove each other's points-of-view, can I humbly suggest that we agree to disagree, and respect each other's beliefs?
Isa, I am surprised by the degree of interest you have in the Bible. Often the Islamic view I hear is simply 'it has been tampered with, so it has no validity' ... whereas you seem to draw so much from the Gospels.
In contrast to that, in doodlebug's 'revised bible and torah?' thread, you speak very strongly against using the Gospels as a reference.
Can I ask you how much credibility to (personally) really give them?
Peace
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
Since we cannot prove or disprove each other's points-of-view, can I humbly suggest that we agree to disagree, and respect each other's beliefs?
Isa, I am surprised by the degree of interest you have in the Bible. Often the Islamic view I hear is simply 'it has been tampered with, so it has no validity' ... whereas you seem to draw so much from the Gospels.
In contrast to that, in doodlebug's 'revised bible and torah?' thread, you speak very strongly against using the Gospels as a reference.
Can I ask you how much credibility to (personally) really give them?
I think that questioning each other's theory is excellent since it excresises the mind and allows people to explore different avenues and come to a better understanding of other's understanding which may result in changing their own view completly or maybe developing their own view to some extent.
I personally, do hold that the Bible is curropt, and even if it was the exact original, then I would still hold that it wasn't the product of the disciples of Jesus, I think since Christianity, rather, Biblical Jesus has played such a part in my life, I tend to delve into the Gospels more, than Just say 'they are tampered' although I do believe that. I also hold a personal view that, although the actions and the circumstances in the Gospels may not be true, the Character of Jesus has been captured in some sense, to me, when reading the Gospels, which I have not done for a while, I see a Jesus' whos' Character is so similar to Islam's discription, I have been Muslim for a year or so, and have just come to read the story of Mary in there, a experience I cannot detail with words, but something amazing.
I wish I had Jesus with me now, but I don't I pray I am here when he returns and that we are close, physically, the reason I opposed to using the Bible as a source for deriving our laws and life as such from, because, well, think about it Glo, for a minute, imagine, you had a book, which confirms another book, but tells u, that book is from G-d but it was for other people, and that we should only follow our own book, then surely u wud take heed to that message.
And many other reasons.
I have probably made mistakes I'm tired.
Peace be upon those who follow guidance.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
If the bible went with along with the trail of logic, it would be easy for us to reflect on it - even if we didn't believe it was revelation/inspiration. This is what scripture is supposed to do, similarly non muslims who read the qur'an become muslims due to it's logic.
May i ask, how come jesus (peace be upon him) never asked people to worship him, if he was God anyway?
Peace.
Bro, the bible is quite logical, it is only when people tell you 'I am a bible believer' and then go on to tell u their beliefs, and instead of taking their belief from the bible, they take their belief and make them fit into the bible, which can be confusing
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
It certainly does if he believed Isaac to be the son Abraham sacrificed, ect. Didn't he also drink Alcohol? That is not very Muslim like is it?
The sharia' (law) in different nations differed. Alcohol is forbidden for the followers of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) - whereas it may have been permissible for the children of Isra'eel. We also know that the booty of war was forbidden for the children of Isra'eel, whereas it is permissible for the followers of Muhammad (peace be upon him.)
Allaah Almighty is the All Knowing, Most Wise, and He know's what is best for each specific nation.
Allaah Almighty know's best.
PS: brother IsaAbdullah, jazak Allaah khayr for clarifying
The sharia' (law) in different nations differed. Alcohol is forbidden for the followers of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) - whereas it may have been permissible for the children of Isra'eel. We also know that the booty of war was forbidden for the children of Isra'eel, whereas it is permissible for the followers of Muhammad (peace be upon him.)
Allaah Almighty is the All Knowing, Most Wise, and He know's what is best for each specific nation.
Allaah Almighty know's best.
PS: brother IsaAbdullah, jazak Allaah khayr for clarifying
Peace.
I was just about to say that, the laws CAN differ.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????
God's laws in one country is different from god's laws in another country?
We're talking about the followers of different prophets. It's not talking about countries. Anyway, i think thats the closest word to the word 'ummah' in arabic.
Obviously they all stuck to the main concepts of islaam such as worshipping the Creator, Allaah without no associates. And obeying the messengers etc. but other issues differed according to their situation. Allaah Almighty know's best.
I think nation is rather more understandable, you see:
All messengers were sent with the duty to call to Allah, it is said in the Quran.
Laws for the people maybe different, they are chosen by G-d for certain times and certain people.
For example, Moses' nation had a law, after Moses other prophets used that law, but that was only for Moses' people, i.e. Moses was sent as a messenger to a recipient.
Now, Muhammad was sent to all mankind, so the law is the same for all here, but the law that we have, may have been slightly different to the law that David and Solomon had, because they had a law for their people and their time.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
What you said is against the rules, so i removed your comment.
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