Evidence that the Bible is Truth.

I'm sorry, I must be really slow, but I don't actually understand any of these prophecies... Could you perhaps elaborate? Maybe you could specify which is written in the OT and which in the NT for those of us who can't tell...

It would be particularly helpful if you could explain the first one... seems interesting.

Should we provide you examples of the many, many prophecies also made by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh that have come true?? This is comparative religion after all...

So you believe in Christianity to be the unchanged right religion because you had a truck driver give you a lift who was a preacher and then you Christian family who had stopped going church because of your father, had started going again once your father was in prison. Also you had a sort of supernatural feeling and you are certain it was God.

Hmm, interesting.

I have Muslim friends who tell me similar, also a Jewish friend who told me God kissed him when he went to the temple, so either God is wanting all of us to follow different religions or some of us are being tricked. Then again, I guess most of us will always believe and never refuse to let ourselfs think that we could be fooled by other forces.

As for what was brought to the discussion, I will touch on Isaiah 7 and 9 since I have spoken on it already and since replyin on these topics takes much effort:

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Peace be upon yall.

Just so we have some peace of mind from these statments we can take a look at 3 of them. This is from research and hardly anything is my own 'new work' so May The G-d of Abraham, Guide the Christians who have worked hard to get closer to truth and Bless both Christians and Muslims who have earnestly and honestly worked for only G-d.

Now it is stated:

1. Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most powerful proofs that Jesus is God: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father The Prince of Peace." The terms child and son refer to the Incarnation or manifestation of "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father."

Now there are many approaches that cane be taken, First and foremost we can for the sake of arguement agree this is Jesus, thought hardly much indicates that but a preconditioned mind.

One point, never did Jesus have a goverment, Jesus explictly said 'My kingdom is not of this world' and 'Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's' (John 18:36 and Matthew 22:21)

To go on, we see for some reason the words used are Might G-d and not Almighty G-d. I would advise you to read the Hebrew word for Mighty, from my research it is 'Gibbowr' people may thing its a little thing but in reality it isn't because..if you check what this word can be translated as it ranges from
1. strong, mighty n m
2. strong man, brave man, mighty man
"Source "

So this Gibbowr is a word which can be used for men, and we see now why Isaiah hasnt used ALMIGHTY which is only for G-d alone.

Also, lets look at the word here translated as G-d, El, this is famous, come on, this Refers to G-d but men too, you should know, any Christian knows what the Bible claims Jesus said on the Cross, Eli Eli... and people thought he was calling to a Man.
Also we see the bible uses this El, in single and plural to talk about Men.
Exodus 7:1 1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Here it is the plural used to show Moses' position over Pharoe.

1. (plural)
1. rulers, judges
2. divine ones
3. angels
4. gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
1. god, goddess
2. godlike one
3. works or special possessions of God
4. the (true) God
5. God
Source

Also, In Psalsm 82:1 it says 'God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.' with the word El Source

This El aparently carries the meaning of:

1. god, god-like one, mighty one
1. mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
2. angels
3. god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
4. God, the one true God, Jehovah
2. mighty things in nature
3. strength, power

Source

Now after all that we can also look at the other terms such as 'Everlasting Father'

Now some example of the term everlasting or forever used with regards to people in the Bible:

Ezekiel 37:25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

And the term father.

Genesis 45:8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

Job 29:16 I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.

Again this is a simple mistake of people taking things out of a vacuum, the language used was clear to the Jews the recipients, Almighty to them was much more than just Mighty so with the world El and YHWH. It would be like me writing a letter saying, 'your an angel and a prince' and someone in another country centruies later reading it taking it in a vacuum without the understanding of my time and saying 'look, see his friend was an angel with wings from heaven and a prince of heaven' see what I mean?

Plus, I would like to state that this Prophecy says, "name shall be called" so these are names, not what the person is, There is a difference between someone being called, G-d's strenght and actually them being G-d's real strenght. This propechy was only saying this persons names, it doesn't say 'He WILL BE MIGHT GOD'.

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

2. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us (Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23).

Again, This was a name, this states 'he will be called', its a name.

I have also answered this before:

Matthew 1:32 - 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

My Response: Ok, Emmanuel meaning G-d is with us. How does this mean Jesus is G-d? Because Jesus is going to be with them, that means Jesus is G-d since Jesus is with them? This is scripture read within the context of scripture.

Luke 1:27 - 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

Does this now mean that G-d was with her in human form and that he was right there, because it says ‘the Lord is with thee’??? Just as Emmanuel is G-d is with us?

(Just as an extra thing, read a little on and see: 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David’

‘He, talking about Jesus, shall be great, and, Jesus, shall be called Son of the Highest: and the Lord G-d shall give him..,’ So The Lord G-d is going to give Jesus something, now if you believe Jesus is G-d, you will believe: The Lord G-d is going to Give The Lord God something. (Mark says, Follow G-d with all your mind)

So I ask, when the angel said G-d is with you, was G-d with Mary in physical form, I think not, I believe he meant in favor, since he did say ‘you have found favor with the Lord. This is echoed in Biblical talk, look at Exodus 17:7 - 7 And he called the name of the place Massah and Mer'ibah, because of the faultfinding of the children of Israel, and because they put the LORD to the proof by saying, "Is the LORD among us or not?"

Did they mean literally? Or were they asking if he was in favor of them, if he was supporting them? I urge yall to read it. Also view the book of Numbers 14:42 and 43 - 42 Go not up, for the LORD is not among you; that ye be not smitten before your enemies. 43 For the Amalekites and the Canaanites are there before you, and ye shall fall by the sword: because ye are turned away from the LORD, therefore the LORD will not be with you.

The reason here is given: the LORD will not be with you because you turned away from Him. Was He physically with them? Or was he with them in favor and blessings?

Look at wars, for examples, Muslims probably believe G-d is with them, and so do Jews, have either of them seen Him? Nope. Yet they believe he is with them.

And I will ask you to just show us where Jesus was called Immanuel, if there isn't a place where he was then I mean, isn't that an unfufilled prophecy?

Plus we can go into it from another angle, which others have:

The verse quoted is: 14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Any one who has studied at school, by the Grace of The Most High, will tell you that when a verse starts with 'Therefore', it is more than likely connected with the previous.

Read the CONTEXT:

Verse 3Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;

4And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.

5Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,

6Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:

7Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.

8For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

9And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.

10Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,

11Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.

12But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.

13And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

This is a whole different topic betwen people.

Another thing, the word virgin here, has been deemed not to be a right translation. Thus the RVS, revised by 30 scholars backed by 50 denomination and so on, changed it to (well I cant find the RVS online but in mine at home it says) ' a young woman' with a foot note saying virgin' hard to let go of old fashions.
Strong's dictionary also says it means:
1. virgin, young woman
1. of marriageable age
2. maid or newly married ++++ There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin. (TWOT)

Source

So we see the attempt here, its basically saying, nowhere does can it be proven that the young woman is not a virgin. Lol what logic.
According to this dictionary this appears in several places, I'll cross-reference to see what the RVS has translated the word in these places:
Genesis 24:43 'young woman'
Exodus 2:8 'girl'
Pslams 68:25 'maidens'
Proverbs 30:19 'maidens'
Solomon 1:3 'maindens
Solomon 6:8 'maidens'

Plus I dont think the NIV also uses Virgin for any of these instances except...you guessed it, Isaiah 7:14, how convinient.

So the RVS shows no virgins for this word, except in the footnote at Isaiah 7:14 I guess we can see, the holding onto old ways.

And maiden is generally used for a young woman or girl, and yes it can mean virgin, since a young woman are.

The arguement comes at the fact that there is a clear cut word for Virgin in the Hebrew and it is only logical that if Isaiah wanted to convey a virgin birth he would have used it.

All the view points are from different aspects, some stronger than the others, but Isaiah 7:14 sure doesnt prove anyone's divinity.

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

I am not here to demolish faith, but rather to show that faith can be polished, noone here denies the power of God in our lifes but rather some acknowledge the power of deception of Satan and it is upto man to come to a conclusion and disctinction between the two with the endowments Almighty God has given, to worship a person out of love while the person is not God is not love, rather to worship in truth what is truth is true love.

I do not worship Jesus merely because my love for him is at the highest it can be for a human, thus I rather love him in truth then exced and thus not love him but rather my desires.

In the hope of building bridges,

Brother Eesa Abdullah, [Jesus, Servant of Almighty God]

(7.) Isaiah 53. The Messiah's Sufferings

"He is Despised and Rejected of men; a Man of Sorrows and acquainted with Grief...He hath borne our Griefs and carried our Sorrows...He was Wounded for Our Transgressions, and Bruised for Our Iniquities...With His Strips We are Healed.

"The Lord hath laid on Him the Iniquity of Us All...He was Oppressed, He was Afflicted, yet He opened not his mouth. He is brought as a Lamb to the Slaughter...He poured out His soul unto Death...and Bore the Sin of Many...

"It pleased the Lord to Bruise Him...to make His Soul an Offering for Sin...And the Pleasure of the Lord shall Prosper in His Hand...By Knowledge of Him shall Many be Justified".

The most conspicuous feature in the Prophecies about the Coming King is that He would be a Sufferer. It was hinted in Abel's Sacrifice, and in Abraham's Offering of Isaac, and vividly fore-pictured in the Institution of the Passover Feast, and in the Annual Day of Atonement, and some of its details described in Psalm 22. And here, in Isaiah 53, detail upon detail is added making the picture more complete. And in chapters 54, 55, 60, 61, the Suffering King Fills the Earth with Songs of Joy. Marvelous Forecasts of the Christian Era.

Actually this does not refer to Jesus at all. Would you like to know why?

I have Muslim friends who tell me similar, also a Jewish friend who told me God kissed him when he went to the temple, so either God is wanting all of us to follow different religions or some of us are being tricked. Then again, I guess most of us will always believe and never refuse to let ourselfs think that we could be fooled by other forces.

Not to difficult of a concept. Judaism teaches that other monotheistic religions that follow the seven laws are valid forms of worshiping G-d for non-Jews.

4.) Isaiah 7:13-14. Immanuel

"O house of David...a Virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a Son, and shall call His Name Immanuel".

This seems to say that Some One, to be called Immanuel, will be born in David's Family, of a Virgin: evidently meaning the same Person as the Branch of 4:2 and 11:1, and the Wonderful Child 9:6. The Deity of the Child is implied in the name Immanuel, which means "God With Us". Thus the Virgin Birth and Deity of the Messiah are here Foretold. It is quoted in Matt 1:23 as referring to Jesus.

Read this:
http://messiahtruth.com/isa714o.html

In Summation:
Matthew mistranslated Isaiah 7:14 and pulled the verse out of context in order to support the claim that the Messiah would be the product of a virgin birth. This is clearly provable, given the language in Isaiah's prophecy, and the context therein.

(8.) Zechariah

"I will bring forth My Servant The BRANCH", 3:8. "O Jerusalem, thy King cometh to thee... Lowly, Riding upon a Colt", 9:9. "In that day the House of David shall be as God", 12:8. "I will Remove the Iniquity of the Land in One Day", 3:9. "They weighed fro my price Thirty Pieces of Silver... and Cast them to the Potter", 11:12, 13. "They shall look upon Me Whom they have Pierced", 12:10. "In that day a Fountain shall be Opened...for Sin and Uncleanness", 13:1.

One of the most dramatic scenes in the New Testament is Jesus' crucifixion. It seems so tragic, yet the story tells us it was all a fulfillment of prophecy:

John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: [34] But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. [35] And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. [36] For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. (KJV)

This passage would indicate that the piercing of Jesus was prophesied in the Jewish Scriptures. Such a bold claim must surely be verified.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (KJV)

The Christian claim is that John 19:33 is the fulfillment of this prophecy in Zechariah. The problems with this claim are with context and translation.



Context

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the L-RD for Israel, saith the L-RD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. [2] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. (KJV)

These two verses set up the background. At some future date, the nations of the world will be gathered against the Jewish people, and will besiege the Jerusalem.

Zechariah 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. [4] In that day, saith the L-RD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. [5] And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the L-RD of hosts their G-d. [6] In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. (KJV)

This siege is part of a tremendous war, the war of Gog and Magog. The Jews shall fight back against the enemy nations, and they shall be victorious.

Zechariah 12:7 The L-RD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. [8] In that day shall the L-RD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as G-d, as the angel of the L-RD before them. [9] And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Of course, the real source of the victory will be from Heaven.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. [11] In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. [12] And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; [13] The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; [14] All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

The concluding verses speak of someone who is pierced and dies. His death will so shock the nation that the people will be moved to repentance and mourning, an intense mourning of this person who is killed that it would be as if they were mourning for a firstborn son. Verse 11 paints a rather dramatic picture of how widespread the mourning will be by comparing this mourning to the mourning the people did over the death of King Josiah, who was killed in battle against the Egyptians, as told in 2 Kings 23:29-30. 2 Chronicles 35:22-25 tells that all of Judah mourning for him.
Does Jesus fit this picture? Three points prevent this:
1) This scenario of war against the nations of the world didn't take place in Jesus' time.
2) The Jews (meaning the whole people) didn't mourn over Jesus' death according to the New Testament account.
3) This proof, like nearly all of Christianity's proofs, requires one to assume the conclusion, that Jesus is the Messiah and that he's special enough that the prophets would have written about him. If you approach the verse without believing in Jesus, there's really no reason to think that the verse refers to him.
Translation
The translation of this verse is rather awkward. Let's give it a closer look.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (KJV)

The speaker in this verse is the L-rd, yet in this translation, it appear that the Lord Himself is pierced. (Hence, the Christian connection, because they believe that Jesus is G-d in the flesh.) However, the rest of the verse would indicate that the L-rd was speaking of someone else. "For him" they shall mourn. "For him" there shall be bitterness.

The author of the Gospel of John apparently didn't see our verse from Zechariah the same way that the King James Bible translated it.

John 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Note that in our verse from Zechariah, it reads "upon Me whom they have pierced." In this verse from John, it's now "on him whom they pierced." If G-d is the speaker, and He is the one being pierced (as if such a thing were possible), then it is reasonable to think that the rest of the verse would be consistent with this. John's quote is consistent, although taken out of context. John never saw the verse as the Lord being pierced, because John clearly believed that Jesus and G-d were two separate entities, as seen by the following:

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (KJV)

The context of the King James translation leads one to think that this is a mistranslation. Examining the Hebrew text of the verse will confirm this.

format_quote Originally Posted by D.Y.R#7XTRUST

[B]By using the modern science of probability in reference to just eight of these prophecies --- the chance that any man might have lived to fulfill all eight prophecies is one in one hundred trillion!

this is no proof of anything. what you have given is merely the christian belief and interpretation of the old testament, which is fine, but evidence it is not.

format_quote Originally Posted by rav

Judaism teaches that other monotheistic religions that follow the seven laws are valid forms of worshiping G-d for non-Jews.

This is what our good jewish fellas - lavikor, therebbe and IzakHalevas been teaching us in the Question about Judaism thread...

If the prophecies really came true its because Jesus AS was a prophet and this doesnt prove the bible to be the word of God because the bible has tons of errors.


Islam also shares the same thoughts, Jesus AS was a prophet, one of the greatest messengers of Allaah swt. He made prophecies and did many miracles by the permission of Allaah swt , but in no way is the bible of today as pure as it was revealed to jesus, its been corrupted to the extent where you can even find incest in it...

this doesnt prove the bible to be the word of God because the bible has tons of errors.

Not really. These "errors" are the result of the english language being so different from the Hebrew language and the analogies that seem foreign to the english language often used in the Tanakh.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim

Salaam,

Ah that old argument.

But i would say that even some Judaic here would quote passages from the tanakh to suit their views.

Passages that was for another in another time can be used suddenly as a prophecy for another.

Take a look at what rav posted on a prophecyof salvation for jews east and west.

An interpretation of the word into one context when those words can mean many more things.

Your argument makes no sense, and you seem to critisize his use of the verse, but it clearly does refer to a state where jews outisde come back to it after an exile.

How about you put the verse that Rav gave us in context. Please do so.

It is not an old argument, it is a correct argument. The errors you point out are nothing more then propaganda websites you cut and paste but do not even understand.

format_quote Originally Posted by rav

Not to difficult of a concept. Judaism teaches that other monotheistic religions that follow the seven laws are valid forms of worshiping G-d for non-Jews.

But what about those who believe God is man, thus I take it that is not monotheism in some's view yet still claim such things, then those are wrong right?

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

But what about those who believe God is man, thus I take it that is not monotheism in some's view yet still claim such things, then those are wrong right?

That concept has no support in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), and there is an argument between Rabbi's on if it is idolatry or not.

format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr

Are you sure of your salvation, and if so on what authority are you guaranteed to be saved?

What do you mean? Is that a general question, or one directed specifically to mansaf?

If it was a general question, in Islam a person is only saved by the Mercy of Allah and by their good deeds with a done for the sake of Allah alone (obviously, the good deeds must be done by a Muslim).

This is best I have seen so far:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=63255

The translations are fairly accurate regarding the culturaul differences of the languages.