Jesus prophet or God

I am a little confused about the last 3 sentences.

It takes child like faith to believe He is who He says. If He isn't why should He even be honored as a prophet? And if He is, HE is not being honored at all just as a prophet!

It is very possible I am not grasping the connotation you intend. I am trying to understand what you mean that we are not Honoring Isa(as) as a prophet?

The reason we view him as a Prophet is because Allah(as) Revealed a Message to him to be shared with Mankind. The fact that Mankind has lost the message does not make him any less of a Prophet.

Now, as far as honoring the Prophets, do not honor any Prophet with any fanfair, special days etc. All of the prophets were Human. However, by their signs we are made aware that their sins, if any were forgiven and that they are sin free.

Now to address the first part:

I find it note worthy too that Muslims acknowledge that God has no limitations in the way of super natural wonders and miracles and that He and His way are beyond our understanding even has stated in the Bible: "Your ways are not my ways and your thoughts are not mine" but when it comes to Jesus being the Son of God, "God's actions must be within human understanding to be acceptable."

One of the reasons we do not believe Isa(as) is also Allah(as) is because Isa(as) himself has said he is not. There is no doubt that Allah(swt) is not bound to do things in manners we understand. But, with Isa(as) there is nothing to indicate that neither He nor those closest to him have attempted to show him as being God(swt)

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

How about when one one the disciples asked him show us the Father (God) and we'll be satisfied. In other word, he was asking that Jesus make it clear who the Father God is that Jesus is referring to. Jesus response to that question hungering to know who God is -- "I have been with you so long and still you don't know me. He that has seen me as seen the Father for the Father is in me and I in Him. What is the difference if I had a glass and I put the plastic bag inside it or put the glass inside the bag? It would still be equal in mass. The arrangement is just different. Remember, It is written who hath believed our report, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? There are many other places where Jesus alludes to who He is. He didn't stop the woman from worshipping Him as she was wiping asd kissing His feet with her tears. Angels have stop people from bowing in their presence. Someone is going through a lot of trouble to cover up who Jesus really is. He claims of Himself that He is the only way to God. Why would He be declared a prophet if His claims of Himself aren't true. And why would an Almighty God in His soverngty allow Bibilical distortions such as these? God protects is Word just like we both believe. Yes, there are translation errors and some differences in the way the gospel was presented, but the Bible is a very coherent unit in regards to Jesus being the in center of all that God has done is doing and will do.

You didn't mention the most obvious evidence, which is that He was threatened with stoning for claiming that relationship with God. Those who suggest there is nothing in the New Testament that points to Christ's divinity are playing a charade.

Here is were the biggest dificulty exists. It all comes down to which book is God's (swt) word. To accept the Qur'an as Truth is sufficient proof to show that Isa(as) is not Allah(swt).

Surah 5:: 116;117

وَإِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَـهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلاَ أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلاَّمُ الْغُيُوبِ
116:
Pickthal: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

Transliteration: Wa-ith qala Allahu yaAAeesa ibna maryama aanta qulta linnasiittakhithoonee waommiya ilahayni min dooni Allahiqala subhanaka ma yakoonu lee an aqoola malaysa lee bihaqqin in kuntu qultuhu faqad AAalimtahutaAAlamu ma fee nafsee wala aAAlamu ma feenafsika innaka anta AAallamu alghuyoob


مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيداً مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ
117:
Pickthal: I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things.

Transliteration: Ma qultu lahum illa maamartanee bihi ani oAAbudoo Allaha rabbee warabbakumwakuntu AAalayhim shaheedan ma dumtu feehim falammatawaffaytanee kunta anta arraqeeba AAalayhim waanta AAalakulli shay-in shaheed

I know that the Qur'an is the True word of Allah(swt) and I know that in the Qur'an Isa(as) emphatically says he never did claim to be God(swt)

I know that in accordance with God's(swt) word Isa(as) is not God(swt)

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

Here is were the biggest dificulty exists. It all comes down to which book is God's (swt) word. To accept the Qur'an as Truth is sufficient proof to show that Isa(as) is not Allah(swt).

Surah 5:: 116;117

وَإِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَـهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلاَ أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلاَّمُ الْغُيُوبِ
116:
Pickthal: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

Transliteration: Wa-ith qala Allahu yaAAeesa ibna maryama aanta qulta linnasiittakhithoonee waommiya ilahayni min dooni Allahiqala subhanaka ma yakoonu lee an aqoola malaysa lee bihaqqin in kuntu qultuhu faqad AAalimtahutaAAlamu ma fee nafsee wala aAAlamu ma feenafsika innaka anta AAallamu alghuyoob


مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيداً مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ
117:
Pickthal: I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things.

Transliteration: Ma qultu lahum illa maamartanee bihi ani oAAbudoo Allaha rabbee warabbakumwakuntu AAalayhim shaheedan ma dumtu feehim falammatawaffaytanee kunta anta arraqeeba AAalayhim waanta AAalakulli shay-in shaheed

I know that the Qur'an is the True word of Allah(swt) and I know that in the Qur'an Isa(as) emphatically says he never did claim to be God(swt)

I know that in accordance with God's(swt) word Isa(as) is not God(swt)

Exactly, it is based on faith. That is why I find these arguments rather dubious. I realize that in order for Islam to be the truth, Christianity must be wrong. I just find it perplexing the lengths some Muslims will go to in an attempt to undermine the faith of Christianity. I understand the motivation, and I suppose it shouldn't surprise me, but it does.

The Qur'an also states He(as) will return. That we agree on.

The reason we do not believe He(as) is not God(swt) or the Son of God(swt) is because He(as) has adamantly said he didn't say that and that those who say He(as) said that spoke falsely If those words are in the Bible, we know that portion of the Bible is false and was not part of the original words.

"Before Abraham was I am"

answer (by a christian)

Peter wrote:

I’m still waiting to hear from someone why the Pharisees picked up stones to stone Jesus if it wasn’t for this kind of blasphemous self-identification in John 8:59.

Now here’s an offer I can’t refuse! I assume by this that you are taking the standard line on John 8:58, that Jesus was claiming to be the God of Exodus 3:14. This assertion is based on a kind of ‘translation theology’, which isn’t borne out in the original language.
In the LXX (Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible), at Exodus 3.14, Yahweh declares "ego eimi o ohn". “I am he that exists”. The addition of ‘o ohn’ is needed to reflect the fact that it is the word ‘ehyeh’ here in the original Hebrew as opposed to ‘ani hu’. In John 8:58 Jesus only says "ego eimi" (I am he). On this basis it isn’t really fair to the text to force an unambiguous reference to Exodus 3:14.
Instead anyone could say ‘I am’ or ‘I am he’ without any allusion to a claim of divinity. Current Reebok adverts quote stars saying “I am what I am”. Another more Biblical example of this is found in John 9:9 where the man born blind says ‘ego eimi’. I am he. None of these individuals are claiming to be the Exodus God.

So ‘ego eimi’ is neither God’s name nor an exclusively divine title.
But all this begs the question you originally raised: ‘If Jesus isn’t claiming to be God, what was he understood to have said that caused such offence?’ The answer lies in the dialogue leading up to his statement. In the verses immediately preceding John 8:45 we see is that this isn’t the first time Jesus has said ‘ego eimi’ in this exchange. He has already said it in v.24.

(This calls into further question the widely asserted notion that the words ‘ego eimi’ were understood by Jesus’ hearers to be a claim of ‘divinity’. Instead of seizing upon this as the long awaited and much sought after grounds to accuse him, they respond by asking ‘who are you?’ (v.25). Obviously Jesus has not identified himself sufficiently by this statement for them to know what the ‘he’ referred to is.)
Reading on from v.25, the discourse moves to Abraham. "How can you claim to offer the life of the age to come?" they ask Jesus, "even Abraham himself is dead, surely you’re not claiming to be greater than him!" (v.51-53)
Next, they misunderstand Jesus’ statement in v.56 (Abraham rejoiced to see my day) by reading too much into it, because in v.57 they accuse Jesus of claiming to have seen Abraham! He never said that. Neither did he say that Abraham had seen him. Only that Abraham had rejoiced to see his day.

Abraham, having believed the gospel preached to him by God (Gal 3.8) rejoiced in hope, looking forward to the ‘day of Christ’ in the same way we do.

It is in response to this misunderstanding that Jesus makes his statement "Before Abraham was, I am he". Notice however that he did not say "I was before Abraham" or "before Abraham was, I was". The present tense ‘I am’ in reference to the past (before Abraham was) simply does not work as a stand-alone sentence.
It only makes sense if Jesus is referring back to some statement he has made previously about his present status with respect to the patriarch. I would suggest that Jesus is expanding on his statement in verse 56 by explaining how, in spite of his not being 50 years old, Abraham could still have rejoiced to see his day.

Bringing the two together what we get is: "Before Abraham was, I am he… whose day Abraham rejoiced to see".
This is a clear identification by Jesus of himself as the seed promised to Abraham by Yahweh and through whom all the families of the earth would be blessed.

Abraham’s greatness was based on his belief in the promise God made to him about his seed and the fact that, in so doing, he became the means through which God would bring his word to pass.
Jesus is greater than Abraham because he is the embodiment of God’s end purpose and the subject of the promise which Abraham rejoiced in. This is the staggering claim which so offended the Jews that they attempted to stone him.

In conclusion…

Though 1st Century Judaism regularly made us of poetic personification with regards to God’s attributes, they had no expectation that God himself would become a man. A heavy burden of proof therefore lies upon anyone who would suggest that the apostles preached any such revolutionary thing.

With regards to John’s gospel, I thought you would be interested in the statement below, expressed by respected scholar Colin Brown, himself a Trinitarian.

“The crux of the matter lies in how we understand the term Son of God… the title Son of God is not in itself an expression of personal Deity or the expression of metaphysical distinctions within the Godhead. Indeed, to be a ‘Son of God’ one has to be a being who is not God! It is a designation for a creature indicating a special relationship with God. In particular, it denotes God’s representative, God’s vice-regent. It is a designation of kingship, identifying the king as God’s Son… In my view the term ‘Son of God’ ultimately converges on the term ‘image of God’ which is to be understood as God’s representative, the one in whom God’s spirit dwells, and who is given stewardship and authority to act on God’s behalf… It seems to me to be a fundamental mistake to treat statements in the Fourth Gospel about the Son and his relationship with the Father as expressions of inner-Trinitarian relationships. But this kind of systematic misreading of the fourth Gospel seems to underlie much of social Trinitarian thinking… It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John’s Gospel to read it as if it said, ‘In the beginning was the Son, and Son was with God, and the Son was God’ (John 1:1). What has happened here is the substitution of Son for Word (Gk. logos) and thereby the Son is made a member of the Godhead which existed from the beginning.”

Trinity and incarnation: towards a contemporary Orthodoxy Ex Auditu, 7, 1991, pp.87-89.

opensourcetheology.net

To simplify things and answer the original post. Here is what we believe about Isa(as)

3: 1. A. L. M. S P C
3: 2. Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal. S P C
3: 3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation


33: 6. The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties, in the Decree of Allah. Than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah). S P C

33: 7. And remember We took from the prophets their covenant: As (We did) from thee: from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant: S P C
33: 8. That (Allah) may question the (custodians) of Truth concerning the Truth they (were charged with): And He has prepared for the Unbelievers a grievous Penalty. S P C

33: 9. O ye who believe! Remember the Grace of Allah, (bestowed) on you, when there came down on you hosts (to overwhelm you): But We sent against them a hurricane and forces that ye saw not: but Allah sees (clearly) all that ye do. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

6:83. That was the reasoning about Us, which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people: We raise whom We will, degree after degree: for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge. S P C

6:84. We gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) guided: and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good: S P C
6:85. And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous: S P C
6:86. And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations: S P C

6:87. (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way. S P C
6:88. This is the guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them. S P


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

2:136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

2:252. These are the Signs of Allah: we rehearse them to thee in truth: verily Thou art one of the messengers. S P
2:253. Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan. S P C

2:254. O ye who believe! Spend out of (the bounties) We have provided for you, before the Day comes when no bargaining (Will avail), nor friendship nor intercession. Those who reject Faith they are the wrong-doers. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

57:26. And We sent Noah and Abraham, and established in their line Prophethood and Revelation: and some of them were on right guidance. But many of them became rebellious transgressors. S P C
57:27. Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of Allah; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

5:45. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers. S P C
5:46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. S P C

5:47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

4:156. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; S P C
4:157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

4:163. We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

4:171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

61: 6. And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

61:14. O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

42:13. The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him). S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

43:56. And We made them (a people) of the Past and an Example to later ages. S P C
43:57. When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)! S P C

43:58. And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people. S P
43:59. He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel. S P C
43:60. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth. S P C

43:61. And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

19:33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! S P C

19:34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. S P C
19:35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation


Gospel as mentioned above is in reference to the Injil which was revealed to Jesus(as) It is not the books of Mark, Matthew, John and Luke, although it is possible they may have some words of the Injil in them.

format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55

That would be true if we were going around Christian forums doing that, since this is supposed to be a muslim forum, I think we can be forgiven for trying to portray Islaamic view of Christ rather than the inovation of Paulean crew aka constantine the sun god and his worshippers aka council of Nicea

This kind of post is exactly what I'm talking about. As I stated, I understand the motivation. I don't mind at all that Muslims share their views of Christ, that is the point of comparitive religion, but there are a large number of posts directed at Christians in this forum dedicated not for understanding or comparison, but simply attack threads. I understand this is a Muslim forum, but if you want respect you should also give respect.

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

They are two distinct personages yet they are one not only in purposes but also in esences. Can you answer the following question: Do you believe when a person dies their spirit dies as well?

Interesting question.

I believe that the spirit separates from the body at death Astragfirullah.

But, if that is the Case with the Christian concept of Isa(as) then you have advanced from a Trinity to a Quartet.

The Father
The Holy Spirit
The Physical Son (Which died)
The Spirit Son (Which corresponds to the Father)

Now if I understand the Christian concept Isa(as) was True God and true Man
were The parts separable or was one part god and one part man and which was which?

Now if the Spirit of Isa(swt) was True God at the time of His Baptism, why did the father have to send the Holy spirit to descend upon him at the time of his Baptism? With him being God already, why would he descend upon himself. Would it not make more sense to have the spirit descend upon a man and not upon a god?

format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55

I would not mind a discussion with persons who actually know about Bible, its contents, its history. but those who just believe in the "truth" of paulism (blindly) have no clue as to what it is. do you remember you and I, in a thread that was talking about concept of original sin? where you claimed a certain person denied the concept of original sin and I had to remind you that far from denying it, he actually was the one who made it officially a part of catholic creed.

leaving aside mutual appreciation/praise or lack thereof , since majority of members here are muslim and many are impressionable young people, I have no choice but to rebut any blatant or subliminal attempt that is made by our resident trinitarians to sow doubt regarding our belief in True and historical Christ. I shall keep doing that for as long as I remain a member or am allowed to remain so.

I have no idea what you are referring to with the orignal sin issue, do you remember what thread that was?

Far from believing in my faith "blindly", I have explored my religion from many directions. If you want to have an honest discussion about what we believe and why we believe it, then by all means ask away. I'm more than happy to discuss why I am a Christian and where that belief comes from. However, I will not waste my time engaging in pointless arguments over whose faith is "wrong". I am secure enough in my own faith that I don't feel the need to attack another to prop up my own. The words of Jesus Christ are enough for me.

format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55

Yes, I was uncertain about St. Augustine, I just knew his name was important on the topic. Not sure why that is so important to this discussion though.