I was born and raised a strict Catholic, the church always taught that Jesus (pbuh), God and the Holy Spirit were all one in the same. Later in life, for whatever reason, I often found myself contemplating whether or not I shared the views of Christians around the world. I have recently been reading into Islam and I find that the main difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam believes you only have 1 God, you only pray to 1 God or in other words, you should practice true monotheism. Christianity also claims to practice monotheism, in that the holy trinity is only one being (God), but here is my question if Jesus (pbuh) were God, then why would he have said on the cross "My God, Why have you forsaken me?" and why would he have prayed, and why would the devil have tempted him during his forty days in the desert with no food or water? And if Jesus was in fact not God, but the Messiah, as the bible says he is, then why would people of the Christian faith say prayers to Jesus, to me that is worshipping more than one God. Furthermore, why, if Christianity is a monotheist religion, do Catholics have the prayer "Hail Mary", and why patronize saints, and say prayers to them for small things, like say Saint Anthony for a parking spot or safe travel? Hopefully I can get some answers here, I am also posting this on a Christian site as well to see what kind of answers I will get there.
A Question about Jesus being God
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Just some points to reflect and ponder over;
There's no explicit verse in the Bible where Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) say's he's God.
Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus son of Mary say 'worship me.'
ALL the Messengers' and Prophets of God have always called to the worship of the One above the heavens i.e. our Creator and Sustainer. If anyone disagrees with this, then they're just falling into the traps of the polytheists by claiming that God has incarnated within the creation, so the creation should 'also be worshipped' along with God. We know that claim is false. God is One, and He is Alone worthy of worship.
Jesus was in his mothers womb, he was born, fed off his mother, grew up, ate his daily food, went to the 'bathroom' etc. Which is typical, since every human does this. Including the honorable Messengers of God, since every Messenger is human, but the Messengers of God are the best among His creation.
The concept of Jesus being tempted by satan (if it were to be true) is a good example for us, since Allaah tests His Messengers' and makes them role models for humanity. So if Jesus was to be tempted by satan, and he never fell in satans trap, this then shows us how great of an example Jesus (peace be upon him) really is to mankind. Yet if one was to claim that satan tried to 'tempt' God - this is totally illogical.
We as Muslims believe that Jesus never died, rather he was raised upto God and will come near the end times (since he is the Messiah/Christ) and he will fight the Anti Christ. The true battle between good/bad, truth/falsehood etc will take place when he returns. He will live, get married, he will die. So if one was to say that Jesus was 'god', and that he 'died' - this then seems illogical, since God does NOT die.
The Muslims actually imitate Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) more than many other people do even today! We know Muslim men usually grow the beards, since that is an example of the Prophets/Messengers of Allaah. I can assure you that there are much more Muslims who imitate Jesus in growing the beard, in imitating him in many ways compared to others among humanity.
Peace.
There's no explicit verse in the Bible where Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) say's he's God.
Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus son of Mary say 'worship me.'
ALL the Messengers' and Prophets of God have always called to the worship of the One above the heavens i.e. our Creator and Sustainer. If anyone disagrees with this, then they're just falling into the traps of the polytheists by claiming that God has incarnated within the creation, so the creation should 'also be worshipped' along with God. We know that claim is false. God is One, and He is Alone worthy of worship.
Jesus was in his mothers womb, he was born, fed off his mother, grew up, ate his daily food, went to the 'bathroom' etc. Which is typical, since every human does this. Including the honorable Messengers of God, since every Messenger is human, but the Messengers of God are the best among His creation.
The concept of Jesus being tempted by satan (if it were to be true) is a good example for us, since Allaah tests His Messengers' and makes them role models for humanity. So if Jesus was to be tempted by satan, and he never fell in satans trap, this then shows us how great of an example Jesus (peace be upon him) really is to mankind. Yet if one was to claim that satan tried to 'tempt' God - this is totally illogical.
We as Muslims believe that Jesus never died, rather he was raised upto God and will come near the end times (since he is the Messiah/Christ) and he will fight the Anti Christ. The true battle between good/bad, truth/falsehood etc will take place when he returns. He will live, get married, he will die. So if one was to say that Jesus was 'god', and that he 'died' - this then seems illogical, since God does NOT die.
The Muslims actually imitate Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) more than many other people do even today! We know Muslim men usually grow the beards, since that is an example of the Prophets/Messengers of Allaah. I can assure you that there are much more Muslims who imitate Jesus in growing the beard, in imitating him in many ways compared to others among humanity.
From Abu Hurayra, may Allah be pleased with him:
The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said:
'The Prophets are like brothers; they have different mothers but their life transaction is one. I am the closest of all the people to Jesus son of Mary, because there is no other Prophet between him and myself. He will come again, and when you see him, you will recognize him. He is of medium height and his colouring is reddish-white. He will be wearing two garments, and his hair will look wet. He will break the cross, kill the pigs, abolish the jizya and call the people to Islam. During his time, Allah will end every religion and sect other than Islam, and will destroy the Dajjal. Then peace and security will prevail on earth, so that lions will graze with camels, tigers with cattle, and wolves with sheep; children will be able to play with snakes without coming to any harm. Jesus will remain for forty years, then die, and the Muslims will pray for him.' (It was related by Ibn Hanbal).
And Allaah knows best.The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said:
'The Prophets are like brothers; they have different mothers but their life transaction is one. I am the closest of all the people to Jesus son of Mary, because there is no other Prophet between him and myself. He will come again, and when you see him, you will recognize him. He is of medium height and his colouring is reddish-white. He will be wearing two garments, and his hair will look wet. He will break the cross, kill the pigs, abolish the jizya and call the people to Islam. During his time, Allah will end every religion and sect other than Islam, and will destroy the Dajjal. Then peace and security will prevail on earth, so that lions will graze with camels, tigers with cattle, and wolves with sheep; children will be able to play with snakes without coming to any harm. Jesus will remain for forty years, then die, and the Muslims will pray for him.' (It was related by Ibn Hanbal).
Peace.
Uthman
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The hadith says that 'Isa (pbuh) will abolish the Jizya?
What Jizya does it mean? I was under the impression that the Jizya was supposed to be part of the Shariah? Why would he abolish that?
I must be confused. What else is new. *sigh*
Salaam Br. Osman,
Why would he abolish the jizya?
See in the hadith where it says....
"Allah will end every religion and sect other than Islam"
When that happens, the jizya will become obsolete, because its only necessary when non Muslims are under the protection of the Islamic state.
Why would he abolish the jizya?
See in the hadith where it says....
"Allah will end every religion and sect other than Islam"
When that happens, the jizya will become obsolete, because its only necessary when non Muslims are under the protection of the Islamic state.
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The hadith says that 'Isa (pbuh) will abolish the Jizya?
:wasalamex
Yup.
It is, the Prophetic guidance is also a part of the Shari'a [Islamic law] right? Therefore, since Allaah says in the Qur'an (translation of the meaning);
By the Star when it goes down,-
Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
[Qur'an Al Najm (the Star) 53: 1-4]
Then the hadith (Prophetic narration) which we just stated above;Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
[Qur'an Al Najm (the Star) 53: 1-4]
"He will.. abolish the jizya and call the people to Islam..."
Then clarifies that Jesus (peace be upon him) will abolish the Jizyah, since the Prophetic sayings are also revelation - therefore a source of law.
We also know that Islaam (submission to Allaah) has always been the religion of the Prophets, since Allaah says in the Qur'an (translation of the meaning):
Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.
[Qur'an 3: 19]
None of the Prophets boasted on the fact that they were Jewish by blood or followers of Christ, rather - they all focused on submitting to Allaah Alone. This was their whole way of life.[Qur'an 3: 19]
Since Jesus is the main difference between the Jews, Christians and Muslims - when he returns, then the Jizya won't be applicable anyway. Since Jesus is a sign from Allaah;
We made her (Mary) and her son (Jesus) a sign for the worlds.
[Qur'an Al Anbiya (the Prophets) 21: 91]
Since he is the main point where the majority of mankind differ, then he will come and clear the doubts of the people, that he truly is the Messenger of Allaah (to clear the doubts of the Jews who reject him) and he will clarify that he is the servant of Allaah (to clear the doubts of the Christians who raise him to the level of God.) And to confirm that he truelly is the Messiah.[Qur'an Al Anbiya (the Prophets) 21: 91]
If anyone rejects him after the truth has become clear and manifest, then should they really live after they have rejected him? One of the reasons why the Jews and Christians are protected under an Islamic state is because they have belief in some of Allaah's Messengers', so they have some similarities.
Yet once the clear proof has come to them - Jesus himself! Then there will be no other option, accept him or reject him. If you reject him, you will be in the party of the Anti-Christ, and without a doubt, there will only be two parties then - the party of the true believers, and the party of those who disbelieve. Those who disbelieve will fight against those who believe, since it is a battle of truth versus falsehood, these are the end times - near the final hour before the Day of Judgement.
Without a doubt, the truth is superior, and falsehood will perish. And without a doubt, Jesus is the truth - he is the servant and Messenger of Allaah. So the party of the truthful will win, and Allaah will give them victory over those who disbelieve.
"Allah has promised to those of you who believe, and do good deeds, that He will surely grant them in the land inheritance of power as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion which He has chosen for them. And that He will change their state after fear to one of security and peace. They will worship Me alone and not associate aught with Me." (Qur'an Al-Noor (the Light) 24:55)
Why would he abolish that?
I must be confused. What else is new. *sigh*
Insha Allaah (God willing) the above has explained it well.
And Allaah knows best.
Walter
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Hi Mtaffi:
I understand your confusion. Let me try to shed some light on this matter.
We both agree that Jesus is the Messiah. We understand from the Old Testament Prophets (or the Books that came before) that one of the duties of the Messiah was to die for the sins of the world – and he did die and was raised up as written in the Qu’ran.
The special relationship that Jesus had with God is not always explicitly stated in the Books that came before. Jesus purposely did not reveal too much about that relationship except to confirm that God was His Father and that He was the Messiah.
Jesus did provide some glimpses into who he was, but they were glimpses. He confirmed that He could forgive sins and that He existed before Abraham; however, knowing that His hearers could not accept this new revelation, He stated “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved." (Matt 9:16-17)
Jesus later revealed why He did not put new wine, or new revelation, into old wine skins, or persons who were not wiling to receive new revelation. Some religious leaders accused Him of casting out demons by the prince of demons, resulting in the “skins” being burst, the “wine” flowing out, and the “wine skins” being ruined. Jesus then said “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Matt 12:32
So speaking against, or blaspheming the Holy Spirit is something that is not forgiven in this world or the next. That is why, I avoid debating about the Trinity with persons who are unfamiliar with the topic, for it is a highly complex topic. We can debate with vigour about any other topic but it is unwise and unsafe to speak irreverently about the Holy Spirit.
If you do not believe, then simply say nothing. You are not required to believe in the Trinity or in Jesus being a part of the Trinity in order to come to God. You simply have to believe that He is the Messiah, as declared in the Qu’ran, and accept the sacrifice that He has made for you, as declared in the Books that came before.
Regards,
Grenville
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I'm sorry, it is not stated in the Qur'an that Jesus (peace be upon him) was killed or crucified.
And [We cursed them] (the Jews) for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
And because of their (Jews) disbelief and uttering against Maryam (Mary ا ) a grave false charge (that she has committed illegal sexual intercourse);
وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلاَّ اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينا
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him [(Jesus), son of (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being], before his [(Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he [(Jesus)] will be a witness against them.
[Qur'an 4: 155-159]
Also, the concept of bearing someone elses deeds by default isn't a recognised concept in Islaam. Every soul is responsible for it's own good and evil deeds. And because of their (Jews) disbelief and uttering against Maryam (Mary ا ) a grave false charge (that she has committed illegal sexual intercourse);
وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلاَّ اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينا
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him [(Jesus), son of (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being], before his [(Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he [(Jesus)] will be a witness against them.
[Qur'an 4: 155-159]
None of the children of Adam are sinful for what Adam and Eve did, rather Adam and Eve repented within their lifetime so Allaah forgave them. Every son and daughter of Adam is born sinless. Similarly, we all may sin - yet if we repent to Allaah sincerely, then Allaah is willing to forgive us for our wrongdoings. And Jesus is free of bearing other peoples deeds, rather he is greatly loved by Allaah and bears his own good, and we pray to Allaah to allow us to be with him in Paradise, along with all the Messengers of Allaah, and the righteous.
Peace.
I am not speaking against the holy spirit or Jesus, I love and respect everything about God and his prophets and his kingdom, but I never read in the bible that Jesus or the holy spirit was actually God. Since that is basically what separates Christians, Jews, and Muslims, I am just trying to figure out what is right and wrong.
Keltoi
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I doubt you will discover what is "right" or "wrong" by reading posts in a forum. If you want an explanation of Christian belief on this subject, visit the Trinity thread or PM a Christian member.
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/42946-who-trinity-christians-muslims.html
Albeit from an Islamic perspective, I have an understanding of both the Son and the Father aspects of the Trinity. Can you provide information to fill in my lack of understanding about the Holy Spirit?
The verses that I have read are a mystery to me:
Jesus' conception through Matthew 1:20 & Luke 1:35, to be baptized with Matthew 3:11 & Mark 1:8, John the Baptist filled with Luke 1:15, John the Baptist's parents filled with (Elizabeth Luke 1:41 & Zacharias Luke 1:67), upon Simeon Luke 2:25, descended upon Jesus Luke 3:22, Jesus full of Luke 4:1, to teach all things John 14:26, filled disciples in upper room & gave utterance to speak in tongues.
How is one "baptized with the Holy Spirit"? What does it mean to be filled with the Holy Spirit? What was the role in Jesus' conception?
If the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus after his baptism by John the Baptist at the same time the Father spoke regarding Jesus being His son, how are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit one and the same God?
Jesus - standing on earth
Holy Spirit - descended from Heaven in form of a dove
Father - spoke from Heaven
Luke 3:21-22 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Jesus - standing on earth
Holy Spirit - descended from Heaven in form of a dove
Father - spoke from Heaven
Luke 3:21-22 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Muslim Woman
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why one needs to be baptized ???
someone explained to me long ago ...sorry i forgot :uhwhat
Keltoi
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The question you just asked is why there is a concept known as the Trinity. How is this possible? With God all things are possible. From a Christian perspective, these things are to be acknowledged, but perhaps not fully understood. I know that isn't the kind of response that clears up misconceptions or sets off a lightbulb of understanding over your head, but there it is.
why one needs to be baptized ???
someone explained to me long ago ...sorry i forgot :uhwhat
[SIZE=-1]Matthew 28:18-20.
Purpose of Baptism. To be saved.
Mark 16:16.
For remission of sins.
Acts 2:36-38; 22:16
[/SIZE]
Peace be upon those who follow guidance,
one word comes to mind reading your questions: EXACTLY! :happy:
sorry if that is not helpful. i know that Brother Keltoi will try to convince you that those are all just misconceptions or what not. but as a Muslim, we follow strict monotheism and shirk (associating partners with Allah(SWT)) is the worst sin possible.
as for the "Hail Mary", praying to someone who is dead, to pray for others, AT THE VERY LEAST viloates the trinity/oneness concept and makes those Christians that recite it like people with FOUR gods! Subhannalah!
Well, not quite. I was wondering if Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 persona of One God, how can they exist separately and simultaneously. How can one aspect descend upon another with the third making a comment about the second? I understand that it is a mystery and that we can't comprehend God. The finite can't fathom the infinite. I guess we Muslims identify Jesus as being a finite human being and find it incomprehensible that the infinite (God) became finite.