Sikhism

Hello there Moss,


“i must say that i disagree with dhillon on the subject to whether one should follow the religion you are born into.”

Where did I say that?

“Lol and those so called debunks have been debunked by muslims on live tyelevision infront of the whole world.”

Your debunks are poor they have not been done live on tv the live ones which I have seen were a great source of comedy.

“I hope Dhillon now understands why it is so hard to understand what he is saying.”

Amardeep said he disagreed with me he never said what I write is hard to follow but I suppose you have now debunked me in front of the whole world.

“as reverts to islam are doing everyday left right and centre”

I don’t think so.

“For example christianity, they believe God has a son, that is blasphemic to God. Therefore there can only be one true way to God, no seconds”

wow that is a great form of:

“as muslims we believe God has given us the intellect and understanding to see the true path”

and when you do reply answer the questions or at least say that I have answered all your questions instead of being annoyed that you could not debunk me.

I look forward to hearing from ya,

ISDHILLON

Ps where has chacha-jalebi gone has he been snorting gulaab-jamans again lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hiya,

anyways like i was saying, The quran is infact revealed by an angel to prophet mohammed pbuh. Now as well as the shahada (declaration of faith), muslims must always sincerely believe in the quran being the word of god, angels, day of judgement, all of allahs messegers (pbut).

The belief in Allah is the most important, but afetr this one must have love for his last messenger (pbuh). Like i said earlier muhammed(pbuh) hold great importance in our life. We can oly follow by his example as he is the one the holy book was revealed to. The angel gabriel would meet him regualrly to reveal verses of the quran. The angels are creation whome have been given no free will. They cannot disobey allah, as their existance is purely to worship and obey his every command. So had The prophet (pbuh) gone astray n not completed the eternal message of the the creator, would not the angel have told him so.


What you have to understand is that muhammed (pbuh) is our pefect role model. You may say why do you need a human to follow wen you can follow the quran, but who can understand its meaning more than himself.

Allah says in the quran:

And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad, saaws, gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it." (v. 59:7)

Ofcourse the messanger can only be referred to as muhammed (pbuh) himself as it was to him the this verse was revealed to.

Take society as an example. We need rules in order for things to run smoothl and for justice to prevail rite. Would you not agree? Within the holy quran are guidlines. Some may start say oh tats extreme, or that oppression or etc etc but then who is the best judge, except the creator himself.

I just have one question. You say god is within us. So could one reach the level that the gurus attained?

Hi Muslimah Ji,


"Take society as an example. We need rules in order for things to run smoothl "

Rules are ok i have a problem with the way they are enforced, i know that if someone was to try and control me i would rebel cos my religion says i am a sovereign being therefore no one knows what best for me other than me, this is why we uprooted the mughals because god did not say that we had to live under such rules, also my religion is against death penalty for whatever reason in fact the guru gave his own life so transgressors could live this is how we learned compassion, during the wars the sikhs fed and dressed the wounds of injured soldiers of the enemy and sent them back to their armies you could kill someone in battle and never for any other reason, anyhow everytime shariah was used on our gurus they were executed and thats why we can never abide by it but i would not have a problem if muslims were allow to willingly submit to punishment my problem is some peoples lives are forcefully taken away and i can never allow that to happen before my eyes wether someone deems it gods decree or not cos my religion came after and god did not say that to us.


"I just have one question. You say god is within us. So could one reach the level that the gurus attained?"

yes but you will never be the guru.

I respect you for your commitment I just find their are some elements which go against my conscience and i have to uphold my conscience the guru calls this bibek buddhi.

Respectfully,

ISDhillon:thankyou:

Salaam aleichum Muslimah19.

u wrote

So had The prophet (pbuh) gone astray n not completed the eternal message of the the creator, would not the angel have told him so.

Muhammad was the only person to see this Angel Gabriel, so who knows, maybe he did hear this but did'n tell anyone?

They cannot disobey allah, as their existance is purely to worship and obey his every command.

did'n the angel iblis disobey Allah swt when he refused to prostate to Adam?

And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad, saaws, gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it." (v. 59:7)

this verse is not a general one. you are taking it out of contex. when i read in my quran, i see that "Allah" is talking about warbooty, and that one has to take whatever Muhammad gives you of this booty.

as this is in a sentence in a warbooty contex, it is not a general verse which means that his hadith shall be followed. the verses regarding the prohobition of pork is general. the verses of NOT killing your daughters of poverty are generel...but this one you gave is not.

i think brother dhillon has answered the rest of your question.

and yes. i do respect your views on Muhammad and religion, i just dont agree with them. but i sure do respect it.

Ma Salaama

Brother Moss wrote:
Lol and those so called debunks have been debunked by muslims on live tyelevision infront of the whole world. There still remains to this one day not one scientific error, or any other contradiction in the Qur'an.

show me a proof that semen comes from between the backbones and the ribs as according to:

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted - Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:" S. 86:5-7

regarding all the "scientefic" miracles talking about big bang, expansion of universe, it is just an interpretation pulled of the words. they dont really talk about it and none of the hadiths about the verses talks about universe expanding, big bang etc etc...

i've just read the book of harun yaha on the universe section and nothing he says seem to be scientifically correct... but if you can post here 3-5 verses regarding the universe, then i'll read them and see whether they are scientifically correct..

Satsriakal Amarrdeep Ji,

I want to say how amazed I am at your knowledge of koran I wish I had studies koran before coming on the forum I find myself sidetracking at times maybe I should have prepared myself like you have.

Well done keep it up,

ISDhillon

PS: some reading material from a muslim spy the time of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji at visakhi, these accounts cannot be verified as really what took place but what is genuine is the existance of these sources recorded in history.:

Eyewitness Account of Vaisakhi 1699

(From an Urdu Pamphlet)
Bhai Veer Singh mentions Abu-ul-Trafi in his book. He was spying on Guru Gobind Singh for a year and a half. This is how the incident is recorded in this spy's journal:
"On the day Guru Gobind Singh Ji prepared Amrit in Anandpur, the attendance in the Diwan was about 35 to 40 thousands. The Mughals had four thrones (seats of Imperial Power), Delhi, Agra, Lahore and Kalanur, but the grandeur of Guru Ji's throne was in a class by itself. The grandeur of this throne was out of this world.
Guru Ji came to the Diwan and, unsheathing his sword, spoke in his thundering voice that he needed a head. No questions or hesitation at all, Bhai Dya Ram came forward to Guru Ji. Guru Ji right in front of all, cut off his head from the body in one stroke. Every body present was stunned. Then Guru Ji again thundered and demanded one more head. Right on Guru's call, Dharam Chand got up, came to Guru Ji, bowed his head and said here is my offering of my head. Guru Ji, again, in one stroke cut off Dharam Chand's head from his body.
Now there was a big commotion in the Diwan. But Guru Ji in his thundering voice went on demanding heads, one after the other. Himmat Rai, Mohkam Chand and Sahib Ram got up and offered their heads. Guru Ji cut off the heads of these three also.
Many from the congregation went to Guru Ji's mother, and narrated the whole happenings in the Diwan to Mata Ji.
Guru Ji cleaned up the blood from the five bodies and heads, and even washed the floor, Then the Guru of these infidels, stitched one head with other body, one by one. This process took about three hours. Then he covered these dead bodies with white sheets.
The Guru of the infidels then took a cauldron made of stone and put an iron wok without handles on top of it. Poured water into the wok and started preparing the "Amrit" (Aab-e-hyat - Elixir of life). The infidel Guru kept churning the water with his sword and kept on reciting his Kalma (Gurbani). This process went on for 1.5 to 2 hours. During this time, a lady from Guru's house came and put something in that water. Now the Amrit "Elixir" was ready.
From the corpses, he took the covering sheets off. First he sat on the head side of Dya Ram, and poured Amrit "Elixir" in his mouth, then poured some on his head and sprinkled some on his body, and then he asked the dead body to say "Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh." As if on his Guru's Command, Dya Ram got up and repeated in his bold voice,"Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh."
It appeared that in the entire congregation every body was so stunned and as if stopped breathing. There was pin-drop silence. All those present were mesmerized with their Guru's miracle. In the same manner, one after the other, Guru made the other four alive too.
Then, he took all five of them inside a tent. After a while Guru Ji along with the five came out. The Five were now wearing new attire. Those five risen from the dead were standing in a line. Then Guru came in front of them and took the "Bir Asan" (Posture of the brave - kneeling on one knee) and asked for the Amrit "Elixir." At this point, these five asked, what are you offering to get this Amrit "Elixir." Then Guru said that I would sacrifice my parents and my sons for your sake. Then these five gave Amrit "Elixir" to Guru Ji, and his name was changed to "Gobind Singh." The word "Singh" was attached with other five's too - Dya Singh, Dharam Singh, Himmat Singh, Mohkam Singh and Sahib Singh.
Abu-el-Trafi writes that I was very remorseful and cried like a baby. After that, thousands took the Amrit "Elixir". Even, I was attracted by a magnetic force and with utmost regret fell on Guru's feet. I requested Guru to give me Amrit (Aaab-e-hyat) too. Guru Ji already knew about my role as a spy and a traitor, put his hand on my back, gave me Amrit and changed my name to Ajmer Singh. Just with this act, my sins of numerous lives got washed away. I participated in many wars.
On that day, I sent my last report to Emperor Aurang Zeb. In this report I wrote my eyewitness account in details. I also warned Aurang Zeb in the strongest possible words not to dare challenge the incarnation of God, and desist from cruel policies and that if he did not listen to and act on my advise, then God forbid, he would lose all - his throne and family.
Gyani Dalip Singh "Komal" of Dhaunola informed that this book is lying in the archives of Aligarh University."
(Extracted from the unpublished, "History of Ramgarhias") If any body doubts the above eyewitness account of the Visakhi of 1699, Guru Granth Sahib Ji says," Ikna nu Satguru Ki partit na Aaye." (Some who have no faith in their Guru)

brother Dhillon, a few years ago i started studying Islam, and i liked what i read and uptill december i thought about converting. i had no knowledge of sikhism, but then my good sikh friend asked to read some texts about sikhism and watch a few movies which almost made me cry

so i wanted to read more about sikhism and discovered that this was the ultimate truth from God himself.

so now im trying to become a better sikh each day, and my "background" in Islam has made me "win" a lot of debates on muslims that attack our dharm.

and yes, its a good idea to know about scriptures of other religions, and it will also benefit you alot in discusses with muslims or christians.

Guru Gobind Singh jee himself told os to do that:

31)Doosrae mataa dae pustak, vidyaa parhni. Pur bhrosaa drirh Gurbani, Akal Purakh tae karnaa -
Study the books and knowledge of other faiths. But keep trust in Gurbani and Akal Purukh.


it also made me look at Islam in a complete different view, and know i know for sure that Muhammad was not the "Final" messenger of God, and that Islam was not an universal religion. sikhi is.

my religion says i am a sovereign being therefore no one knows what best for me other than me

Hello!!

Long time eh?

Hope ur well....

Well, I was just slightly muddled on that...But surely, our parents know what is best for us AT TIMES???

I mean they raised us and all that...

format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram

Hello!!

Long time eh?

Hope ur well....

Well, I was just slightly muddled on that...But surely, our parents know what is best for us AT TIMES???

I mean they raised us and all that...

true enough, i meant in terms of my reality for eg if i am feeling something, someone can suggest a course of action for me but ultimately i will choose to opt for it, i would never want a choice made for me by anyone, but yeah when i was little my mummy changed my diapers lol

i hope ur well too

chachaaa Jeeeeeee!!!!

how is you doin boyakashaaaa! - that was my attempt at being cool but really mate sometimes i cant understand what you have written cool down the chatroom stylee and then we can discuss stuff more properly, the stuff on visakhee is about when the khalsa was created its an eye witness testomony of a muslim that was sent by aurangzeb to spy on the guru but instead he fell in love with the guru and became a sikh and sent a letter back to emporor telling him he wont be comin back lolkay:

CYA

ISDhilon

Question.

What is the stone of Janat (paradise)?
Where is it?

salam and greeting to all

i have few question about sikh, as we know sikh is a monotheistic relegion based on teaching of ten Gurus who lived in punjabi i guess in 1400th-1700th century, so it considered one of the youngest relegions on earth today.So my question

1) if sikh relegion exist in 14th century, what happen to all humankind that lived before that.are they live in false?
2) is it true that sikh religious is formed from a Hinduism's bhakti mystical devotion and Sufi mysticism as an attempt to reform hinduism which endup becoming its own relegion.because your 1st guru has reach sri lanka ,iran ,iraq ,tibet and mecca.
3) is the cycle of death and rebirth(reincarnation)bring any sense or meaning to all universe before sikhsm and what is the main goal of reincarnation.beside making world population growing up.
4) why all the sikh are strictly disallowed to eat meat were slaughtered by muslim way.
5)could somebody describe about meaning and the relevancy of practising of the 5Ks.

just want to know, peace

Sat Sri Akal, starfortress,

I'll answer whatever questions I know:

[IS Dhillon, if I am wrong in any aspect, do correct me.]

"1) if sikh relegion exist in 14th century, what happen to all humankind that lived before that.are they live in false?"

No, their lives lived are not false. Every religion during its time of conception brings about purity of living. That is, whatever they preached, they tend to practise it. But through time, many religions - which were once a practical way of life - soon become passive theoretical religions. People tend to get stuck in the theory part of the belief system alone. Such was the state of Islam and Hinduism in India then, where each side boasted of their spirituality but did nothing much for humanity other than tyranny and divided caste society and lack of unity.

When Guru Nanak Dev Ji was asked whether Hinduism or Islam was better, he said, "Without good deeds, both will repent."

"Truth is high, but higher still is truthful living." One of the main reasons Sikhism was born: to put to practise strongest faith in God by doing service to society irrespective of their backgrounds; not to make noise about a religion one belongs to but to live up to the ideal of God that He has in mind for human.

"2) is it true that sikh religious is formed from a Hinduism's bhakti mystical devotion and Sufi mysticism as an attempt to reform hinduism which endup becoming its own relegion.because your 1st guru has reach sri lanka ,iran ,iraq ,tibet and mecca."

Though Sikhism is also a mystic religion, it does not believe in the passivity of spirituality. The Bhakti Movement had no impact on society except for their small circle of followers. It was neither an organised movement nor planned. It was just a moment in Indian history when random spirits were creating a renaissance in spirituality, which were in coicidence with the time of the Sikh Gurus, whose approach was systematic, dynamic, practical, and confronted the emperor(s) directly with fearlessness of being prosecuted or wiped out.

3) is the cycle of death and rebirth(reincarnation)bring any sense or meaning to all universe before sikhsm and what is the main goal of reincarnation.beside making world population growing up.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction - this is the rule of reincarnation. Whatever we cause to happen will always have a result. The very fact that the earth is round goes to show that what goes around will come around. With regard to increase in world population, maybe the spirits in animal and plant forms are beginning to take human form. All is the Will of God, as IS Dhillon has said, Sikhism is above logic of reason.

I also heard that even Christianity believed in reincarnation in the 3rd century after which an emperor of Jordan, in order to control the people, made changes in the Bible by bringing in Heaven and Hell, so that the church could control its people through the fear of Hell fire.

4) why all the sikh are strictly disallowed to eat meat were slaughtered by muslim way.

Sikhs do not eat Halal meat because, in the eyes of Sikhs, it's considered torturous to the animal. Instead, Sikhs believe in a clean,single, sudden blow or beheading.

During halal process,the animal is obviously under heavy duress because of fear and trauma,and therefore as a natural reflex,its endocrine glands secrete defensive chemicals into its body system,because it is conscious all the time during halal,which acts like torture.
The resulting meat will naturally be toxic and unsuitable for human consumption and must have a certain physical effect on the 'mentality' of the person consuming it, this is Sikh perspective, and less significantly to Sikhs, also science's perspective.

5)could somebody describe about meaning and the relevancy of practising of the 5Ks.

First and foremost, the sole reason Sikhs maintain the 5 K's is because it is the Gift of Love from our Guru to us. The significance of these, thus becomes irrelevant as nothing in the eyes of a Sikh, surpasses the 'Love' token between him and his beloved Guru, between son & father - and a Sikh with 5 K's will never question or doubt the great wisdom of his Guru who has sacrificed his all for us Sikhs, who are but the dust of his feet.

In Sikhism, the aim of religion is not to create more followers, but to create more leaders. The aim of Sikhism is to make a Muslim, Prophet-like; a Buddhist, Buddha-like; a Christian, Christ-like, and a Sikh, Guru-like. In order to achieve the amalgamation of prophet & people, of teacher & student, of leader & follower, Guru Gobind Singh Ji went down on his knee (on Vaisakhi, 1699) and requested the Five Beloved whom he baptized into the Khalsa, to baptize him too, and accept him into the fold of all equality. In doing so he uplifted the down-trodden spirit of India to make them realise that they are all sovereigns and Heaven is willing to come down on its knee to embrace humankind despite all misconceptions of God and religion. The Guru also did not want to create a gap of practical preacher/religion & passive followers who do not put themselves into the shoes of the prophets, so the Guru made sure that every Sikh should feel what it feels like to be the Guru himself - he thus gifted us his very personality. When a Sikh adopts the 5 K's, he is almost always physically aware of the dynamic personality of his father,Guru Gobind Singh, and his high spirits (chardi kala), so he must conduct himself in the ideal of his father.

The first step into practical religion is the courage to uphold one's conviction and faith. So Guru Gobind Singh Ji made sure that a Sikh will not be able to hide his creed, by gifting the Sikh long, unshorn hair (a Sikh's first & practical step in courage: physically adoption of one's conviction, thus creating harmony of the outside world with inner spirit) By keeping hair, a Sikh practically submits to the Will of God in giving us this human form with beautiful hair. Someone said that long hair is only for women, then I guess God & Evolution are pretty ancient-minded to catch up with human advancements?

The Kara, the steel bangle is the engagement ring between the Guru and his Sikh to remind the Sikh of his commitments to the Guru. The circle also stands for the infinity of God and the metal, the sternness of a soldier on all hardships.

The Kanga, a wooden comb, is to remind a Sikh to maintain cleanliness - which is obviously next to Godliness. We are gifted this body from God, hence we should not abuse it in anyway, since it's the temple that houses are spirit.

The Kachhera, a pair of shorts is to remind the Sikh to be brisk in his action and to remain chaste in his commitment to his spouse (IS Dhillon, please correct me if I am wrong).

The Kirpan, a sword/dagger is to remind the Sikh of his commitment to the dynamic ideals of Guru Gobind Singh in safeguarding one's religion and people - no matter what their creed. To remind the Sikh that it's useless to believe in justice and self-respect if we fail to act in times of need. It is also to remind the Sikh that religion is not mere theory but demands immediate service of one's people. It is also a reminder to the Sikh that he was born from the blood of those who sacrificed their lives for the cause of human freedom and equality. Kirpan means 'hand of mercy', so it is in no way to initiate violence as Guru Gobind Singh has said: "When all efforts to restore peace prove useless, then right it is, to use the sword (violence)."
An old Roman proverb also goes something like: "Arms keep peace."

Lion King.

i've heard that the reason we dont eat halal, is because your are chanting the name of God while you are killing an animal. killing is impure, blood and fear is in the room, panic scenes occour and while this happends, u say the Lords name..its like praying in the bathroom astagfarallah..

if you kill, be a man and do it in your own name .dont blasfemise Gods name by doing so..

Well Said Lion King Ji,

I think you really hit the nail on the head their with the explanation especially the part about 5k's I enjoyed reading that.

Satsriakal Aisha Ji,

Yes to some extent religions do teach similarities but we can never be more than one religion at any given time.

Thanks,

ISDhillon:thankyou:

Hiya amardeep and ISDHILLION,

first of subhanallah, there ar so many that come into islam but manage o instantaniously leave the fold of islam. This is all the doing of shaitaan. One doubt leads to another and then one makes the biggest mistake of their lives. n every religion there are questions that cannot be answered coz the ultimate answer lies with our creator alone.

For example if sommeone was to ask you how did god come into existance (astagfirullah), i would personally say that he alone has knowledge of all things, and im not sure what ur response would be.

Iblees was not an angel, he was a jinn. They were created before man himelf except they are nt mad of clay, but are made of smokeless fire. He had such obedience for allah, but when told to bow down to adam (pbuh), he thought he was an superior creation to adam (pbuh).

Angels are created for the worship of allah, and also have specific duties which they have been ordered to do.

I dont see how the verse i gave you is out of context. Once you believe the quran is the true message for allah, then why would a true believer objest to abiding by its rules.

Now amardeep i am goin to assume you were seeking the true religion, were you athiest before?? And what made you want to seek a religion? The quran is only in arabic. Im not sure how to explain to you. But the meaning of it lies in the arabic. It was the language that it was revieled in, and will re remain till near the end of time. Now when it is translated in any other language, It isnt going to be word to word? How can it? The arabic language in which allah revealed the quran in is very complex, as is the bible, which over the years has been changed in order to simpify the meaning, but when you read it you are not reading the direct message which was revealed orignally.

Does that make sense?? If not can explain better, sorry if your confused in any way.

To someone who is seeking a religion, ofcourse a religion which allows people to believe in any religion would seem appealing. Why wouldnt it. You have to ask yourself, if one faith is trying to establish an islamic state, n this is stated in the quran, we are obeying our lords command. But to another religion lilke sikhism who is in favour of all religions, then wouldnt god be doin great injustice. See now i can see why one would allah create such confusion? The basis of islam, is to accept god as being one, YES, but believing in the quran. It goes hand in hand, does that make sense.


Its all very well you saying that what if the Angel did tell the prophet(pbuh) not to stray from the message, but shirk in islam is the major sin, So why would allah have allowed this to happen. This initself is a ssin, as you are imlyin the allmighty did not know the intention of this messenger whome he had chosen. How can you say such a lie about your creator? Im not sayin you in particular have done or havnt done, but if we read through the lines this is what one would have implied.

Okay you do not believe in logic. N you do not believe in miracles. Whether you want to call it a miracle or you want to call it proof, either way the signs are there.

Allah knows us better than we know ourselves. He warns us as well as guides us in the quran by saying:

002.208
O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly; and follow not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy.

Shaitaan will try and mislead us. N after centuries of experince you think that he has not figured out that he cannot mislead us by whispering to us that there is multipe lords, The proof us in ouur holy book the quran. BUT he can start by putting doubts into our minds and hearts. N this can be as little as why did the angel not appear to any1 else? Why did he not approach the public? Whome are we to question our lords decision

I pray that we all remain steadfast in the deen of islam. We must make dua for our ummah, and strive to gain knowledge, so thah we can defend our beliefs. May allah guruad us from the accursed shaitaan. Ameen