Sikhism

Asalaamu 'alaykum

A very good question Moss.

We've shed some light on this conundrum in the following article:

THE ORIGINAL WORSHIPPERS
Were they upon one doctrine and worship or many? In answering this we will shed light on the absurdity of religious pluralism and diversity of worship
http://www.geocities.com/islam_sikhi...in/origin1.htm

Wa salaam

“Since i take Brothers Akram Islam_sikhism, and Qurban are busy, i'll take the chance to ask genuine questions about sikhism i don't understand

I don't undestand how God sent Guru Nanek only like 700 years ago, what about before then? Where was the guidance for mankind. We've been around for thousands of years, yet God only sent Guru Nanek recently. The semetic religions have a better answer to this, through the prophethood, but you don't believe these prophets were sent by God do you? Please explion the the whole guidance before the coming of Nanak”

Satsriakal Moss Ji,

Please ignore the essay from the islam-sikhism site they are unable to counter argue all my refutations but I will answer your question. The guidance for mankind has always been at the will of god it is at his pleasure that the myriad of faiths have come to pass in both the east and the west, similarly in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji there is mention of all faiths including semitic ones such as adam and your prophet, from Hinduism there is mention of nearly all avatars and Buddha, but what is important here is to note is the word guidance, we have to look at whether Sikhism is really a religion such as the semitic faiths or is it a dharma (active way of righteousness), you see we do not believe in religion because we do not want to worship god therefore knowing of past events will not help us achieve this purpose, nor does god want us to worship him, god wants us to be enlightened as he has revealed himself throughout the ages in his creation, the spirits descent in time and the human spirit ascends in time this is the way of works, worship of god is not enough, religion has hardened the identity of a faith follower Sikh means to learn we therefore are not hardened we can all learn from one another and we can never fully sing the praises of god nor can we ever claim to have the full revelation because god is without limit.

If we are free from the bondage of dogma then we can live and continue to give to the world free from any bondage to obscurant ideology which is what all the messiahs did they never came on earth so that when they left we would all just repeat what they said they wanted us to live and impart the gifts we gained from their teachings, with time however many people lossed site of dharma and dharma was replaced by religion, guidance then became a formality. Let me describe this, in Hinduism people pray to idols, idol worship was forbidden in Sikhism not because it was a sin but because of sheep mentality. Originally when the devtas were on earth the humans who lived had a spiritual awakening (which happens with the start of all faiths) this involves a renewed kinship with mans spirit and the divine. Devotion wells up and in such loving adoration faith followers built magnificent idols which were great works of art and portrayed the inner experience in an external fashion. However with time people stopped the exercises of spirituality and instead were left with the magnificence of the idols these idols were bowed before, the next generation then grew up learning from the previous generation that the ancestors all bowed and thus was a custom born, but the dharma was lost and the religion of Hinduism was born.

Now in Sikhism we have no idols we only have the words of the guru which we bow before because if the guru kept his mouth shut we would never have known they existed therefore the learning was what was important not the person. If we bow before the word then we know that we cannot live in the memory of the past flesh gurus but the guru which is forever present to day in the form of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Now Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji made sure that there would be no prophecy in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji however he did write his own autobiography and in it he describes the drama of religion and dharma let me show you what he says please note that the guru covers most religions even many which are not given any consideration in the Koran such as the eastern ones:

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI

ਅਬ ਮੈ ਅਪਨੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਖਾਨੋ ॥ ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਆਨੋ ॥
अब मै अपनी कथा बखानो ॥ तप साधत जिह बिधि मुहि आनो ॥
Now I relate my own story as to how I was brought here, while I was absorbed in deep meditation.

ਹੇਮ ਕੁੰਟ ਪਰਬਤ ਹੈ ਜਹਾਂ ॥ ਸਪਤ ਸ੍ਰਿੰਗ ਸੋਭਿਤ ਹੈ ਤਹਾਂ ॥੧॥
हेम कुंट परबत है जहां ॥ सपत स्रिंग सोभित है तहां ॥१॥
The site was the mountain named Hemkunt, with seven peaks and looks there very impressive.1.

ਸਪਤ ਸ੍ਰਿੰਗ ਤਿਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਹਾਵਾ ॥ ਪੰਡੁ ਰਾਜ ਜਹ ਜੋਗੁ ਕਮਾਵਾ ॥
सपत स्रिंग तिह नामु कहावा ॥ पंडु राज जह जोगु कमावा ॥
That mountain is called Sapt Shring (seven-peaked mountain), where the Pandavas Practised Yoga.

ਤਹ ਹਮ ਅਧਿਕ ਤਪੱਸਿਆ ਸਾਧੀ ॥ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥੨॥
तह हम अधिक तपसिआ साधी ॥ महाकाल कालिका अराधी ॥२॥
There I was absorbed in deep meditation on the Primal Power, the Supreme KAL.2.

ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਤੇ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥
इह बिधि करत तपसिआ भयो ॥ द्वै ते एक रूप ह्वै गयो ॥
In this way, my meditation reached its zenith and I became One with the Omnipotent Lord.

ਤਾਤ ਮਾਤ ਮੁਰ ਅਲਖ ਅਰਾਧਾ ॥ ਬਹੂ ਬਿਧਿ ਜੋਗ ਸਾਧਨਾ ਸਾਧਾ ॥੩॥
तात मात मुर अलख अराधा ॥ बहू बिधि जोग साधना साधा ॥३॥
My parents also meditated for the union with the Incomprehensible Lord and performed many types of disciplines for union.3.

ਤਿਨ ਜੋ ਕਰੀ ਅਲਖ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਾ ॥
तिन जो करी अलख की सेवा ॥ ता ते भए प्रसंन गुरदेवा ॥
The service that they rendered the Incomprehensible Lord, caused the pleasure of the Supreme Guru (i.e. Lord).

ਤਿਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਬ ਆਇਸ ਮੁਹਿ ਦੀਆ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਮ ਜਨਮ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਲੀਆ ॥੪॥
तिन प्रभ जब आइस मुहि दीआ ॥ तब हम जनम कलू महि लीआ ॥४॥
When the Lord ordered me, I was born in this Iron age.4.

ਚਿਤ ਨ ਭਯੋ ਹਮਰੋ ਆਵਨ ਕਹ ॥ ਚੁਭੀ ਰਹੀ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਚਰਨਨ ਮਹ ॥
चित न भयो हमरो आवन कह ॥ चुभी रही स्रुति प्रभु चरनन मह ॥
I had no desire to come, because I was totally absorbed in devotion for the Holy feet of the Lord.

ਜਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਹਿ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੫॥
जिउ तिउ प्रभ हम को समझायो ॥ इम कहि कै इह लोक पठायो ॥५॥
But the Lord made me understand His Will and sent me in this world with the following words.5.

ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਾਚ ਇਸ ਕੀਟ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ ॥
अकाल पुरख बाच इस कीट प्रति ॥
The Words of the Non-temporal Lord to this insect:

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI

ਜਬ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਹਮ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਬਨਾਈ ॥ ਦਈਤ ਰਚੇ ਦੁਸਟ ਦੁਖਦਾਈ ॥
जब पहिले हम स्रिसटि बनाई ॥ दईत रचे दुसट दुखदाई ॥
When I created the world in the beginning, I created the ignominious and dreadful Daityas

ਤੇ ਭੁਜ ਬਲ ਬਵਰੇ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਏ ॥ ਪੂਜਤ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਰਹਿ ਗਏ ॥੬॥
ते भुज बल बवरे ह्वै गए ॥ पूजत परम पुरख रहि गए ॥६॥
Who became mad with power and abandoned the worship of Supreme Purusha.6.

ਤੇ ਹਮ ਤਮਕਿ ਤਨਕ ਮੋ ਖਾਪੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਠਉਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਥਾਪੇ ॥
ते हम तमकि तनक मो खापे ॥ तिन की ठउर देवता थापे ॥
I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.

ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਲਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਉਰਝਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੭॥
ते भी बलि पूजा उरझाए ॥ आपन ही परमेसर कहाए ॥७॥
They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotednt.7.

ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥
महादेव अचुत कहायो ॥ बिसन आप ही को ठहिरायो ॥
Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥
ब्रहमा आप पारब्रहम बखाना ॥ प्रभ को प्रभू न किनहूं जाना ॥८॥
Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.

ਤਬ ਸਾਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਸਟ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਦੇਬੇ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥
तब साखी प्रभ असट बनाए ॥ साख नमित देबे ठहिराए ॥
Then I created eight Sakshis in order to give evidence of my Entity.

ਤੇ ਕਹੈ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਹਮ ਬਿਨ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੯॥
ते कहै करो हमारी पूजा ॥ हम बिन अवरु न ठाकुरु दूजा ॥९॥
But they considered themselves all in all and aasked the people to worship them.9.

ਪਰਮ ਤੱਤ ਕੋ ਜਿਨ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕਰਿ ਈਸਰ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥
परम तत को जिन न पछाना ॥ तिन करि ईसर तिन कहु माना ॥
Those who did not comprehend the Lord, they were considered as Ishvara.

ਕੇਤੇ ਸੂਰ ਚੰਦ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਅਗਨਿ ਹੋਤ੍ਰ ਕਈ ਪਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨੈ ॥੧੦॥
केते सूर चंद कहु मानै ॥ अगनि होत्र कई पवन प्रमानै ॥१०॥
Several people worshipped the sun and the moon and several others worshipped Fire and Ait.10.

ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਨ੍ਹਾਤ ਕਿਤੇ ਜਲ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਧਾਨਾ ॥
किनहूं प्रभु पाहन पहिचाना ॥ न्हात किते जल करत बिधाना ॥
Several them considered God as stone and several others bathed considering the Lordship of Water.

ਕੇਤਕ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਡਰਪਾਨਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜ ਕੋ ਧਰਮ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੧੧॥
केतक करम करत डरपाना ॥ धरम राज को धरम पछाना ॥११॥
Considering Dharmaraja as the Supreme representative of Dharma, several bore fear of him in their actions. 11.

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤੇ ਹਿਆਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਵਾਏ ॥
जो प्रभ साख नमित ठहिराए ॥ ते हिआं आइ प्रभू कहवाए ॥
All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme.

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਸਰ ਜਾਤੀ ਭੀ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਪਰਤ ਸੋਭ ਭੀ ॥੧੨॥
ता की बात बिसर जाती भी ॥ अपनी अपनी परत सोभ भी ॥१२॥
They forgot the Lord in their race for supremacy. 12

ਜਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਨ ਤਿਨੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਇਨ ਮਨੁਛਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਨਾ ॥
जब प्रभ को न तिनै पहिचाना ॥ तब हरि इन मनुछन ठहिराना ॥
When they did not comprehend the Lord, then I established human beings in their place.

ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਸਿ ਮਮਤਾ ਹੁਇ ਗਏ ॥ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਪਾਹਨ ਠਹਿਰਏ ॥੧੩॥
ते भी बसि ममता हुइ गए ॥ परमेसर पाहन ठहिरए ॥१३॥
They also were overpowered by `mineness` and exhibited the Lord in statues.13.

ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਸਿੱਧ ਸਾਧ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਏ ॥
तब हरि सिध साध ठहिराए ॥ तिन भी परम पुरख नही पाए ॥
Then I created Siddhas and sadhs, who also could not realize the Lord.

ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਤ ਭਯੋ ਜਗਿ ਸਿਆਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੋ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਨਾ ॥੧੪॥
जे कोई होत भयो जगि सिआना ॥ तिन तिन अपनो पंथु चलाना ॥१४॥
On whomsoever wisdom dawned, he started his own path. 14.

ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਬੈਰ ਬਾਦ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਬਢਾਯੋ ॥
परम पुरख किनहूं नह पायो ॥ बैर बाद अहंकार बढायो ॥
None could realise the Supreme Lord, but instead spread strife, enmity and ego.

ਪੇਡ ਪਾਤ ਆਪਨ ਤੇ ਜਲੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਪੰਥ ਨ ਕੋਊ ਚਲੈ ॥੧੫॥
पेड पात आपन ते जलै ॥ प्रभ कै पंथ न कोऊ चलै ॥१५॥
The tree and the leaves began to burn, because of the inner fire.None followed the path of the Lord.15.

ਜਿਨਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਤਨਿਕ ਸਿੱਧ ਕੋ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨਾ ਰਾਹੁ ਚਲਾਯੋ ॥
जिनि जिनि तनिक सिध को पायो ॥ तिन तिन अपना राहु चलायो ॥
Whosoever attained a little spiritual power, he started his own ptah.

ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਮਮ ਉਚਾਰਤੇ ਭਯੋ ਦਿਵਾਨਾ ॥੧੬॥
परमेसर न किनहूं पहिचाना ॥ मम उचारते भयो दिवाना ॥१६॥
None could comprehend the Lord, but instead became mad with `I-ness`.16.

ਪਰਮ ਤੱਤ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਆਪ ਆਪ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥
परम तत किनहूं न पछाना ॥ आप आप भीतरि उरझाना ॥
Nobody recognized the Supreme Essence, but was entangled within himself.

ਤਬ ਜੇ ਜੇ ਰਿਖਰਾਜ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਆਪਨ ਪੁਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਚਲਾਏ ॥੧੭॥
तब जे जे रिखराज बनाए ॥ तिन आपन पुन सिम्रित चलाए ॥१७॥
All the great rishis (sages), who were then created, produced their own Smritis.17.

ਜੇ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥
जे सिम्रितन के भए अनुरागी ॥ तिनि तिनि क्रिआ ब्रहम की तिआगी ॥
All those who became followers of these smritis, they abandoned the path of the Lord.

ਜਿਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥ ਸੋ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਰਾਹ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥੧੮॥
जिन मन हरि चरनन ठहिरायो ॥ सो सिम्रितन के राह न आयो ॥१८॥
Those who devoted themselves to the Feet of the Lord, they did not adopt the path of the Smritis.18.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਚਾਰ ਹੀ ਬੇਦ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਲੋਕ ਤਿਹ ਕਰਮ ਚਲਾਏ ॥
ब्रहमा चार ही बेद बनाए ॥ सरब लोक तिह करम चलाए ॥
Brahma composed all the four Vedas, all the people followed the injunctions contained in them.

ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਲਿਵ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਤੇ ਬੇਦਨ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥੧੯॥
जिन की लिव हरि चरनन लागी ॥ ते बेदन ते भए तिआगी ॥१९॥
Those who were devoted to the Feet of the Lord, they abandoned the Vedas.19.

ਜਿਨ ਮਤ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਨ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥
जिन मत बेद कतेबन तिआगी ॥ पारब्रहम के भए अनुरागी ॥
Those who abandoned the path of the Vedas and Katebs, they became the devotees of the Lord.

ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਗੂੜ ਮੱਤ ਜੇ ਚਲਹੀ ॥ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਦੁਖਨ ਸੋ ਦਲਹੀ ॥੨੦॥
तिन के गूड़ मत जे चलही ॥ भांति अनेक दुखन सो दलही ॥२०॥
Whosoever follows their path, he crushes various types of sufferings.20.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਸਹਿਤ ਜਾਤਨ ਸੰਦੇਹਿ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਛੋਡਤ ਨੇਹ ॥
जे जे सहित जातन संदेहि ॥ प्रभ को संगि न छोडत नेह ॥
Those who consider the castes illusory, they do not abandon the love of the Lord.

ਤੇ ਤੇ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰੀ ਕਹ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕਛੁ ਨਾਹੀਂ ॥੨੧॥
ते ते परम पुरी कह जाही ॥ तिन हरि सिउ अंतरु कछु नाहीं ॥२१॥
When they leave the world, they go to the abode of the Lord, and there is no difference between them and the Lord.21.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਜੀਯ ਜਾਤਨ ਤੇ ਡਰੈ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਪ੍ਰਰਖ ਤਜਿ ਤਿਨ ਮਗ ਪਰੈ ॥
जे जे जीय जातन ते डरै ॥ परम प्ररख तजि तिन मग परै ॥
Those who fear the castes and follow their path, abandoning the Supreme Lord.

ਤੇ ਤੇ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮੋ ਪਰਹੀ ॥ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਜਗ ਮੋ ਬਪੁ ਧਰਹੀ ॥੨੨॥
ते ते नरक कुंड मो परही ॥ बार बार जग मो बपु धरही ॥२२॥
They fall into hell and transmigrate again and again.22.

ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਬਹੁਰ ਦੱਤ ਉਪਜਾਇਓ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅਪਨਾ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਓ ॥
तब हरि बहुर दत उपजाइओ ॥ तिन भी अपना पंथु चलाइओ ॥
Then I created Dutt, who also started his own path.

ਕਰ ਮੋ ਨਖ ਸਿਰ ਜਟਾਂ ਸਵਾਰੀ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਨ ਕਛੂ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੩॥
कर मो नख सिर जटां सवारी ॥ प्रभ की क्रिआ न कछू बिचारी ॥२३॥
His followed have long nail in their hands and matted hair on their heads . They did not understand the ways of the Lord.23

ਪੁਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਰਖ ਕੌ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਸਿੱਖ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਨਹੂੰ ਬਡ ਰਾਜਾ ॥
पुनि हरि गोरख कौ उपराजा ॥ सिख करे तिनहूं बड राजा ॥
Then I ccreated Gorakh, who made great kings his disciples.

ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ਫਾਰਿ ਮੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਦੁਐ ਡਾਰੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤ ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੪॥
स्रवन फारि मुद्रा दुऐ डारी ॥ हरि की प्रीत रीति न बिचारी ॥२४॥
His disciples wear rings in their ears and do not know the love of the lord.24.

ਪੁਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਮਾਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਕਰਾ ॥ ਭੇਸ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਕੋ ਜਿਨ ਧਰਾ ॥
पुनि हरि रामानंद को करा ॥ भेस बैरागी को जिन धरा ॥
Then I created Ramanand, who adopted the path of Bairagi.

ਕੰਠੀ ਕੰਠਿ ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਡਾਰੀ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਨ ਕਛੂ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੫॥
कंठी कंठि काठ की डारी ॥ प्रभ की क्रिआ न कछू बिचारी ॥२५॥
Around his neck he wore necklace of wooden beads and did not comprehend the ways of the Lord.25.

ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਉਪਜਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੇ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਏ ॥
जे प्रभु परम पुरख उपजाए ॥ तिन तिन अपने राह चलाए ॥
All the great Purushas created by me started their own paths.

ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਤਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਅਰਬ ਦੇਸ ਕੋ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੨੬॥
महादीन तब प्रभ उपराजा ॥ अरब देस को कीनो राजा ॥२६॥
Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਏਕ ਪੰਥ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਲਿੰਗ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੀਨੇ ਸਭ ਰਾਜਾ ॥
तिन भी एक पंथ उपराजा ॥ लिंग बिना कीने सभ राजा ॥
He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ ॥੨੭॥
सभ ते अपना नामु जपायो ॥ सति नामु काहूं न द्रिड़ायो ॥२७॥
He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27.

ਸਭ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥
सभ अपनी अपनी उरझाना ॥ पारब्रहम काहू न पछाना ॥
Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman.

ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਹਰਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਬੁਲਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਹਿ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੨੮॥
तप साधत हरि मोहि बुलायो ॥ इम कहि कै इह लोक पठायो ॥२८॥
When I was busy in the austere devotion, the Lord called me and sent me to this world with the following words.28.

ਅਕਾਲ ਪ੍ਰਰਖ ਬਾਚ ॥
अकाल प्ररख बाच ॥
The Word of the Non-Temporal Lord:

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI

ਮੈ ਅਪਨਾ ਸੁਤ ਤੋਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ॥ ਪੰਥ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ ਕਰਬੇ ਕਹੁ ਸਾਜਾ ॥
मै अपना सुत तोहि निवाजा ॥ पंथ प्रचुर करबे कहु साजा ॥
I have adopted you as my son and hath created you for the propagation of the path (Panth).

ਜਾਹਿ ਤਹਾਂ ਤੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਚਲਾਇ ॥ ਕਬੁਧਿ ਕਰਨ ਤੇ ਲੋਕ ਹਟਾਇ ॥੨੯॥
जाहि तहां तै धरमु चलाइ ॥ कबुधि करन ते लोक हटाइ ॥२९॥
"You go therefore for the spread of Dharma (righteousness) and cause people to retrace their steps from evil actions".29.

ਕਬਿਬਾਚ ॥
कबिबाच ॥
The World of the Poet:

ਦੇਹਰਾ ॥
देहरा ॥
DOHRA

ਠਾਢ ਭਯੋ ਮੈ ਜੋਰਿ ਕਰ ਬਚਨ ਕਹਾ ਸਿਰ ਨਿਆਇ ॥
ठाढ भयो मै जोरि कर बचन कहा सिर निआइ ॥
I stood up with folded hands and bowing down my head, I said:

ਪੰਥ ਚਲੈ ਤਬ ਜਗਤ ਮੈ ਜਬ ਤੁਮ ਕਰਹੁ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੩੦॥
पंथ चलै तब जगत मै जब तुम करहु सहाइ ॥३०॥
"The path (Panth) shall prevail only in the world, with THY ASSISTANCE."30.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPI

ਇਹ ਕਾਰਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੋਹਿ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਬ ਮੈ ਜਗਤ ਜਨਮ ਧਰਿ ਆਯੋ ॥
इह कारनि प्रभ मोहि पठायो ॥ तब मै जगत जनम धरि आयो ॥
For this reason the Lord sent me and I was born in this world.

ਜਿਮ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੀ ਤਿਨੈ ਤਿਮ ਕਹਿਹੋਂ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕਿਸੂ ਤੇ ਬੈਰ ਨ ਗਹਿਹੋਂ ॥੩੧॥
जिम तिन कही तिनै तिम कहिहों ॥ अउर किसू ते बैर न गहिहों ॥३१॥
Whatever the Lord said, I am repeating the same unto you, I do not bear enmity with anyone.31.

ਜੋ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿਹੈਂ ॥
जो हम को परमेसर उचरिहैं ॥ ते सभ नरक कुंड महि परिहैं ॥
Whosoever shall call me the Lord, shall fall into hell.

ਮੋ ਕੌ ਦਾਸ ਤਵਨ ਕਾ ਜਾਨੋ ॥ ਯਾ ਮੈ ਭੇਦ ਨ ਰੰਚ ਪਛਾਨੋ ॥੩੨॥
मो कौ दास तवन का जानो ॥ या मै भेद न रंच पछानो ॥३२॥
Consider me as His servant and do not think of any difference between me and the Lord.32.

ਮੈ ਹੋ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ ॥ ਦੇਖਨ ਆਯੋ ਜਗਤ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥
मै हो परम पुरख को दासा ॥ देखन आयो जगत तमासा ॥
I am the servant of the Supreme Purusha and hath come to see the Sport of the world.

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਗਤਿ ਕਹਾ ਸੋ ਕਹਿਹੋਂ ॥ ਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਲੋਕ ਤੇ ਮੋਨ ਨ ਰਹਿਹੋਂ ॥੩੩॥
जो प्रभ जगति कहा सो कहिहों ॥ म्रित लोक ते मोन न रहिहों ॥३३॥
Whatever the Lord of the world said, I say the same unto you, I cannot remain silent in this abode of death.33.

ਨਰਾਜ ਛੰਦ ॥
नराज छंद ॥
NARAAJ STANZA

ਕਹਿਓ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੁ ਭਾਖਿ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਕਿਸੂ ਨ ਕਾਨ ਰਾਖਿ ਹੋਂ ॥
कहिओ प्रभू सु भाखि हों ॥ किसू न कान राखि हों ॥
I say only that which the Lord hath said, I do not yield to anyone else.

ਕਿਸੂ ਨ ਭੇਖ ਭੀਜ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਅਲੇਖ ਬੀਜ ਬੀਜ ਹੋਂ ॥੩੪॥
किसू न भेख भीज हों ॥ अलेख बीज बीज हों ॥३४॥
I do not feel pleased with any particular garb, I sow the seed of God`s Name.34.

ਪਖਾਣ ਪੂਜ ਹੋਂ ਨਹੀਂ ॥ ਨ ਭੇਖ ਭੀਜ ਹੋ ਕਹੀਂ ॥
पखाण पूज हों नहीं ॥ न भेख भीज हो कहीं ॥
I do not worship stones, nor I have any liking for a particular guise.

ਅਨੰਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਗਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਪਰੱਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥੩੫॥
अनंत नामु गाइ हों ॥ परम पुरख पाइ हों ॥३५॥
I sing infinite Names (of the Lord), and meet the Supreme Purusha.35.

ਜਟਾ ਨ ਸੀਸ ਧਾਰਿਹੋਂ ॥ ਨ ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਕਾ ਸੁਧਾਰਿਹੋਂ ॥
जटा न सीस धारिहों ॥ न मुंद्रका सुधारिहों ॥
I do not wear matted hair on my head, nor do I put rings in my ears.

ਨ ਕਾਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਕੀ ਧਰੋਂ ॥ ਕਹਿਓ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੁ ਮੈ ਕਰੋਂ ॥੩੬॥
न कान काहू की धरों ॥ कहिओ प्रभू सु मै करों ॥३६॥
I do not pay attention to anyone else, all my actions are at the bidding of the Lord.36.

ਭਜੋਂ ਸੁ ਏਕ ਨਾਮਯੰ ॥ ਜੁ ਕਾਮ ਸਰਬ ਠਾਮਯੰ ॥
भजों सु एक नामयं ॥ जु काम सरब ठामयं ॥
I recite only the Name of the Lord, which is useful at all places.

ਨ ਜਾਪ ਆਨ ਕੋ ਜਪੋ ॥ ਨ ਅਉਰ ਥਾਪਨਾ ਥਪੋ ॥੩੭॥
न जाप आन को जपो ॥ न अउर थापना थपो ॥३७॥
I do not meditate on anyone else, nor do I seek assistance from any other quarter.37.

ਬਿਅੰਤ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥
बिअंत नाम धिआइ हों ॥ परम जोति पाइ हों ॥
I recite infinite Names and attain the Supreme light.

ਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਆਨ ਕੋ ਧਰੋਂ ॥ ਨ ਨਾਮ ਆਨ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥੩੮॥
न धिआन आन को धरों ॥ न नाम आन उचरों ॥३८॥
I do not meditate on anyone else, nor do I repeat the Name of anyone else.38.

ਤਵੱਕ ਨਾਮ ਰੱਤਿਯੰ ॥ ਨ ਆਨ ਮਾਨ ਮੱਤਿਯੰ ॥
तवक नाम रतियं ॥ न आन मान मतियं ॥
I am absorbed only in the Name of the Lord, and honour none else.

ਪਰੱਮ ਧਿਆਨ ਧਾਰੀਯੰ ॥ ਅਨੰਤ ਪਾਪ ਟਾਰੀਯੰ ॥੩੯॥
परम धिआन धारीयं ॥ अनंत पाप टारीयं ॥३९॥
By meditating on the Supreme, I am absolved of infinite sins.39.

ਤੁਮੇਵ ਰੂਪ ਰਾਚਿਯੰ ॥ ਨ ਆਨ ਦਾਨ ਮਾਚਿਯੰ ॥
तुमेव रूप राचियं ॥ न आन दान माचियं ॥
I am absorbed only in His Sight, and do not attend to any other charitable action.

ਤਵੱਕ ਨਾਮ ਉਚਾਰਿਯੰ ॥ ਅਨੰਤ ਦੂਖ ਟਾਰਿਯੰ ॥੪੦॥
तवक नाम उचारियं ॥ अनंत दूख टारियं ॥४०॥
By uttering only His Name, I am absolved of infinite sorrows.40.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI

ਜਿਨ ਜਿਨ ਨਾਮ ਤਿਹਾਰੋ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਤਿਹ ਨਿਕਟ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥
जिन जिन नाम तिहारो धिआइआ ॥ दूख पाप तिह निकट न आइआ ॥
Those who mediated on the Name of the Lord, none of the sorrows and sins came near them.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਅਉਰ ਧਿਆਨ ਕੋ ਧਰਹੀਂ ॥ ਬਹਿਸ ਬਹਿਸ ਬਾਦਨ ਤੇ ਮਰਹੀਂ ॥੪੧॥
जे जे अउर धिआन को धरहीं ॥ बहिस बहिस बादन ते मरहीं ॥४१॥
Those who meditated on any other Entiey, they ended themselves in futile discussions and quarrels.41.

ਹਮ ਇਹ ਕਾਜ ਜਗਤ ਮੋ ਆਏ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਪਠਾਏ ॥
हम इह काज जगत मो आए ॥ धरम हेत गुरदेव पठाए ॥
I have been sent into this world by the Preceptor-Lord to propagate Dharma (righteousness).

ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਤੁਮ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਥਾਰੋ ॥ ਦੁਸਟ ਦੋਖੀਅਨਿ ਪਕਰਿ ਪਛਾਰੋ ॥੪੨॥
जहां तहां तुम धरम बिथारो ॥ दुसट दोखीअनि पकरि पछारो ॥४२॥
The Lord asked me to spread Dharma, and vanquish the tyrants and evil-minded persons. 42.

ਯਾਹੀ ਕਾਜ ਧਰਾ ਹਮ ਜਨਮੰ ॥ ਸਮਝ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਾਧੂ ਸਭ ਮਨ ਮੰ ॥
याही काज धरा हम जनमं ॥ समझ लेहु साधू सभ मन मं ॥
I have taken birth of this purpose, the saints should comprehend this in their minds.

ਪਰਮ ਚਲਾਵਨ ਸੰਤ ਉਬਾਰਨ ॥ ਦੁਸਟ ਸਭਨ ਕੋ ਮੂਲ ਉਪਾਰਨ ॥੪੩॥
परम चलावन संत उबारन ॥ दुसट सभन को मूल उपारन ॥४३॥
(I have been born) to spread Dharma, and protect saints, and root out tyrants and evil-minded persons.43.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਭਏ ਪਹਿਲ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਆਪੁ ਤਿਨ ਜਾਪੁ ਉਚਾਰਾ ॥
जे जे भए पहिल अवतारा ॥ आपु आपु तिन जापु उचारा ॥
All the earlier incarnations caused only their names to be remembered.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦੋਖੀ ਕੋਈ ਨ ਬਿਦਾਰਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਕਰਨ ਕੋ ਰਾਹੁ ਨ ਡਾਰਾ ॥੪੪॥
प्रभ दोखी कोई न बिदारा ॥ धरम करन को राहु न डारा ॥४४॥
They did not strike the tyrants and did not make them follow th path of Dharma.44.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਗਉਸ ਅੰਬੀਆ ਭਏ ॥ ਮੈ ਮੈ ਕਰਤ ਜਗਤ ਤੇ ਗਏ ॥
जे जे गउस अ्मबीआ भए ॥ मै मै करत जगत ते गए ॥
All the earlier prophets ended themselves in ego.

ਮਹਾਪਰਖ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕੋ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੪੫॥
महापरख काहू न पछाना ॥ करम धरम को कछू न जाना ॥४५॥
And did not comprehend the supreme Purusha, they did not care for the righteous actions.45.

ਅਵਰਨ ਕੀ ਆਸਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਏਕੈ ਆਸ ਧਰੋ ਮਨ ਮਾਹੀ ॥
अवरन की आसा किछु नाही ॥ एकै आस धरो मन माही ॥
Have no hopes on others, rely only on the ONE Lord.

ਆਨ ਆਸ ਉਪਜਤ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਵਾ ਕੀ ਆਸ ਧਰੋਂ ਮਨ ਮਾਹੀ ॥੪੬॥
आन आस उपजत किछु नाही ॥ वा की आस धरों मन माही ॥४६॥
The hopes on others are never fruitful, therefore, keep in your mind the hopes on the ONE Lord.46.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
दोहरा ॥
DOHRA

ਕੋਈ ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਕੋ ਕੋਈ ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥
कोई पड़्हत कुरान को कोई पड़्हत पुरान ॥
Someone studies the Quran and someone studies the Puranas.

ਕਾਲ ਨ ਸਕਤ ਬਚਾਇ ਕੈ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਨਿਦਾਨ ॥੪੭॥
काल न सकत बचाइ कै फोकट धरम निदान ॥४७॥
Mere reading cannot save one from death. Therefore such works are vain and do not help at the time of death.47.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਕੁਰਾਨਾ ॥ ਬਾਚਤ ਕਿਤੇ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਅਜਾਨਾ ॥
कई कोटि मिलि पड़्हत कुराना ॥ बाचत किते पुरान अजाना ॥
Millions of people recite the Quran and many study Puranas witout understanding the crux.

ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲ ਕੋਈ ਕਾਮ ਨ ਆਵਾ ॥ ਦਾਵ ਕਾਲ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਬਚਾਵਾ ॥੪੮॥
अंत काल कोई काम न आवा ॥ दाव काल काहू न बचावा ॥४८॥
It will be of no use at the time of death and none will be saved.48.

ਕਿਉ ਨ ਜਪੋ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਤੁਮ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲ ਜੋ ਹੋਇ ਸਹਾਈ ॥
किउ न जपो ता को तुम भाई ॥ अंत काल जो होइ सहाई ॥
O Brother! Why do you not meditate on Him, who will help you at the time of death?

ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਲਖੋ ਕਰ ਭਰਮਾ ॥ ਇਨ ਤੇ ਸਰਤ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਕਰਮਾ ॥੪੯॥
फोकट धरम लखो कर भरमा ॥ इन ते सरत न कोई करमा ॥४९॥
Consider the vain religions as illusory, because they do not serve our purpose (of life).49.

ਇਹ ਕਾਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਹਮੈ ਬਨਾਯੋ ॥ ਭੇਦੁ ਭਾਖਿ ਇਹੁ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥
इह कारन प्रभु हमै बनायो ॥ भेदु भाखि इहु लोक पठायो ॥
For this reason the Lord created me and sent me in this world, telling me the secret.

ਜੋ ਤਿਨ ਕਹਾ ਸੁ ਸਭਨ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥ ਡਿੰਭ ਵਿੰਭ ਕਛੁ ਨੈਕ ਕ ਕਰੋਂ ॥੫੦॥
जो तिन कहा सु सभन उचरों ॥ डि्मभ वि्मभ कछु नैक क करों ॥५०॥
Whatever He told me, I say unto you, there is not even a little heresay in it.50.


Please let me know if you would like me to explain the difference between dharma and religion.

ISDhillon

Wow!

That's gonna take a loong time to read.

i'll get back to u tomorow, Allah willing.

Asalaamu 'alaykum

Please ignore the essay from the islam-sikhism site they are unable to counter argue all my refutations but I will answer your question.

Out of all the articles written on our site, you'vee refuted all of them?!?!
Allaahu Akbar!
Do you even know what a refutation is Dhillon?

format_quote Originally Posted by Islam-Sikhism

Asalaamu 'alaykum



Out of all the articles written on our site, you'vee refuted all of them?!?!
Allaahu Akbar!
Do you even know what a refutation is Dhillon?

No I did not refute all articles, but by all means you can engage in this debate.

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”

Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

Hi ISDhillion how you doing?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I presume you believe that the teachings of your religion to be the truth hence to be followed.

How do we as human beings distinguish between Truth and Falsehood? Which is imperative, otherwise any one of us can formulate a new religion and say it’s the truth?

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”

Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

During the dialogue exchange between us so far- you have kept asking me to do a “paradigm shift” to understand your God- you were saying “he is eternal and not eternal” and “its O.K that it’s a contradiction”- i.e. Eternal + Not Eternal = Truth

Which can be further summarised as follows


God is Eternal = True
God is Eternal = False

Because according to you as you say “contradictions are OK”
(God is Eternal = True + God is Eternal = False) = True

Why is he asking us to accept falsehood as the truth?

If you God is asking us to violate the laws of Non- Contradiction, which makes it impossible to distinguish between truth and falsehood, to understand him- how does he expect us to follow his teachings rather than a man made doctrine- I could invent a new religion saying worship the sun, it will reward you- and you cant say that its false, because according to you God is asking us to accept False as the truth-

See I can understand what you’re saying that he is not bound by logic, I have no problems with that what so ever- but we are, don’t you agree?

Any revelations from him should be a communication of truth to the Mind-

Kind Regards

Qurban

Hi Every Body

I have been following this thread with great interest as a guest on this forum-

How can God be Eternal and Not Eternal at the same time- thats just Ridiculous!

it will be interesting to hear the answer to the following question

How do we as human beings distinguish between Truth and Falsehood? Which is imperative, otherwise any one of us can formulate a new religion and say it’s the truth?

If you deny the law of non contradiction then the answer is You Cant

Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it?

Thats another ridiculous proposition!
Your living in a logical universe- stick to logic!
dont worry about what he can and cant do, what he reveals to mankind has to be locical and believable to rational mind!

And if you do not deny the law of non-contradiction I suspect that you still can't.

at least its a start- if you dont deny it, you can sthink rationally and at least distinguish the difference between false and truth- do you even know what the law is, let me enlighten you

This law judges as false any meaningful proposition P and its denial, proposition not-P, true at the same time and in the same respect. In the words of Aristotle:
“One cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time.”

How do you think you can tell a true religion from a false one?

you can start by not denying that law first off all- then start reading scriptures-

may be its high time you did, instead of making stupid comments!

0.4 True and 0.6 False

That equates to false!

fuzzy logic

thats all it is "Fuzzy"

God can be, and not be, at the same time if He so wishes can't He?

How is he God if ceases to exists- its an ungodly act!-

You should stop worrying about what he can and cant do to himself, and start worrying about what he can and will do to you-

Quarban Ji

The nature of truth has a definition which is different from the definition your religion has, we call god truth, truth is referred to as sat, what you are referring to when you want to know about the “truth” of Sikhism is what we refer to as sach/right, we as humans cannot distinguish between truth and falsehood but we can distinguish between right and wrong but only through our conscience, truth has no opposite because truth in Sikhism is a concrete entity (spirit) it is not a claim, therefore there is only right/wrong and right and wrong changes as society evolves which is why we have no eternal concrete code of conduct, I may offend many by saying this but a murderer is not evil a murderer can commit an act of evil and reform we learn this through time that reality is not static change and continuity go hand in hand there is not one path. This is post-modern philosophy. Why the need for you to distinguish between other religions, I as a Sikh never have the desire to falsify Islam, I will tell you why because you have a man-made claim that islam is the final revelation and these claims are not written in the Koran, the kalima does not say last and final messenger this is an adage interpreters have attached to the kalima it does not exist. It actually reads that the prophet is the slave of god, and that is ok but god sent a guru in Sikhism not a slave or a prophet

“Which can be further summarised as follows


God is Eternal = True
God is Eternal = False”

I have said that truth is god and god has no opposite god is a being which creates right and wrong, that which you perceive as false exists because it resides in your perception you can then only conclude that there are those things which are not in consonance with the teachings of Islam but truth has no hand in such activities just your personal opinion which suggests that those things are wrong but not false as they exist. Ultimate reality is god and that is the only truth until you achieve a god-like state you cannot deliberate on truth.

“If you God is asking us to violate the laws of Non- Contradiction, which makes it impossible to distinguish between truth and falsehood, to understand him- how does he expect us to follow his teachings rather than a man made doctrine- I could invent a new religion saying worship the sun, it will reward you- and you cant say that its false, because according to you God is asking us to accept False as the truth- “

I hope you have now learned the nature of truth in Sikhism and will understand how far from understanding Sikhism you have been throughout this discussion. Btw it is ok for people to make up religions I will tell you why since Sikhism started their have been up to 50 Sikh sects but we have not attempted to falsify them instead we have given them independent religious status we therefore detach the groups from Sikhism which gives them more honour and makes our people less confused, however with time these groups have vanished the reason being that the “other” arises only out of ego, but when the other achieves glory then there is no longer a purpose for their difference in faith, so once again they become assimilated within mainstream Sikhism. The longer you try to denounce a group of people they will continue to assert themselves if only to give their life some meaning.

However in the case of Sikhism and Islam the status of the “other” is different because of the sovereignty of our doctrine, in this case the other exists in direct contrast to the former whilst both parties stick to their respective identities they reinforce and further define one another’s individual characteristics this is the only solution for a plural society. If Sikhism had been a “false” religion it would have not stood the test of time to date and that is the greatest proof that we are held by an object greater than just self-determination as many from other faiths believe us to be.

“See I can understand what you’re saying that he is not bound by logic, I have no problems with that what so ever- but we are, don’t you agree?”


we are and that is our disease , our mind is what is blocking us from the truth within and you answer this riddle yourself:

“Any revelations from him should be a communication of truth to the Mind-“

is this not self-realisation that I have been saying is the purpose of man. “maan too jot swaroop hai apna mool paachaan” mind you are inspired by the divine essence now recognise your inner potential.

I think what I am trying to say to you that if falsehood exists then it is the mind which is false. I actually wrote a poem a while back to a vociferous Christian apologetic who would not stop trying to convert me:

A poem for the “defenders of reason”

Make love your reason
Make surrender your interpretation
Make change your reality
Make truth your spirit
Make the name of god your question
Make doubt your fallacy
Make hukum your philosophy
Make good deeds your theory
Make equality your law
Make pluralism your conclusion
Make logic your error
Make union your premise
Make mysticism your fact
Make nitnem your formula
Make spontaneity your prediction
Make brotherhood of man your relationship
Make rehat your culture
Make the sword your evidence
Make god your anomaly

I hope you are not offended I will leave you with a quote from SGGS about the annihilation of the mind:

One who kills this is a spiritual hero. One who kills this is perfect. One who
kills this obtains glorious greatness. One who kills this is freed of suffering.
How rare is such a person, who kills and casts off mind's duality. Killing it,
he attains Raaja Yoga. One who kills this becomes fearless. One who kills this
is absorbed in the Name. One who kills this becomes desireless. One who kills
this Realizes the Divine Realm. One who kills this is truly Wealthy. One who
kills this is honorable. One who kills this is truly a celibate. One who kills this
attains salvation. One who kills this — his coming is auspicious. One who kills
this is steady and wealthy. One who kills this is very fortunate. One who kills
this remains awake and aware, night and day. One who kills this is living
liberated. One who kills this lives a pure lifestyle. One who kills this is
spiritually wise. One who kills this meditates intuitively... (sggs 237).


ISDhillon:thankyou:

Mr Dhillion

Your attempt to defend your religion was a joke!

some of the stuff you have come out with defies logic-

How can God be uncreated and eternal when he can be created from memory-

Than you commit intellectual suicide by saying contradictions are O.K which means to say you accept falsehood to be the truth- then why are you arguing in the first place, according to your fuzzy logic everything any body else says to the contrary to your arguments you will have to accept as the truth-

Their are some clowns in this forum,who could not even recognise this very fact- with all due respect- Qurban, Akram and Moss you fir into that catergory-

Then another idiot joins into, who has the audacity to call others idiot, by saying Mr Dhillion is intelegent-
"Your are Lost soul", you really are lost arent you? you fail to realise with your limited knowledge that Mr Dhillions line of thinking anihilates logic and reason, so he is accepting the counter arguments against him as the truth-

Read the dialoge exchange before making idiotic comments-

Soldier2000 Ji

"Your attempt to defend your religion was a joke!"

In one of your earlier post you said that we live in a logical universe therefore you have to use logic to defend your faith I am saying we do not live in a logical universe and so too does science microphysical particles refuse to behave in a rational (causative) manner; they refused to reveal their simultaneous position and momentum at any given point of time. W. Heisenberg, realizing the epistemic inadequacy of reason - of its reductive-analytic method - in knowing reality objectively (independently of the 'subject') propounded his famous principle of indeterminacy. This was an impasse beyond which reason could not go in its comprehension of reality. This impasse of reason is the impasse of modern Western civilization necessitating a paradigm shift in thinking.

"How can God be uncreated and eternal when he can be created from memory-"

because god is incomprehensible.

"Than you commit intellectual suicide by saying contradictions are O.K "

You have cut the branch which you are sitting on and havn't even realized, if i believe in a post modern paradigm then contradiction rational and reason are inapplicable ie, the death of the intellect when discussing the nature of divine essence. Congratualtions you have reached a point of understanding but in your ego you have taken the position erroneuos position that you are victorious but I am laughing at you one could call you almost a clown!

"Mr Dhillions line of thinking anihilates logic and reason, so he is accepting the counter arguments against him as the truth-"

WELL DONE THATS CALLED POSTMODERNISM AND LOGIC AND REASON HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR DOCTRINE BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE ANYONE IDIOTS IT JUST MAKES THEM AWARE OF THE SIKH POSITION.

"Read the dialoge exchange before making idiotic comments"

So what useful thing have you got to add to this debate?

ISDhillon

Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it?

Yes he can. That rock is a metaphor of Free Will. God has made free will so humans choose to obey him or not. If God ''lifted'' that free will off then there would be no such thing as free will and everybody would be perfect.

And Allah knows best.

Hi ISDhillion

Make love your reason
Make surrender your interpretation
Make change your reality
Make truth your spirit
Make the name of god your question
Make doubt your fallacy
Make hukum your philosophy
Make good deeds your theory
Make equality your law
Make pluralism your conclusion
Make logic your error
Make union your premise
Make mysticism your fact
Make nitnem your formula
Make spontaneity your prediction
Make brotherhood of man your relationship
Make rehat your culture
Make the sword your evidence
Make god your anomaly

Not sure if i agree with it, but nice poem!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your religion with me- very much appreaciated- i know it must of been a bit frustrating, at some points, but thanks for keeping your cool!


Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.

(Holy Quran 109:1-6)

Bear Witness that i am a Muslim

Thank you and All the Best

format_quote Originally Posted by Pagal Kuri

Yes he can. That rock is a metaphor of Free Will. God has made free will so humans choose to obey him or not. If God ''lifted'' that free will off then there would be no such thing as free will and everybody would be perfect.

And Allah knows best.

Then your god is also not all powerfull compared to mean who has written all that will come to pass, if in fact your interpretation is correct.