ISDhillion, to us the Shariah get's you to 'enlightenment', it doesn't make sense that everyone is allowd to do what they want because that would only make it easier to follow desires , like, for example, if it was not a sin and there was no penalty to go have sex with girls without marrying, I would go do it, while a noble servant of God, like (Yusuf) Joseph (as) the great grandson of Ibraheem (as), would not do it even if their was no punishment the prison house was beloved to him then what the women were calling him to, and he sought refuge with God lest he be among the ignorant (which you become when you let your passions dictate you)
one of the noble virtues is that you help people, well these harsh laws and penalties help people not become ignorant and controled by their passions, it helps them get pushed to the light, ofcourse, they have to inwardly push themselves too which no one can do for them, but having a government with God given laws to us is essential
in anohter angle, why follow man made laws and not God laws? why make our own laws? is not God the most wise and best for judging and choosing? we don't know everything, some years back, I couldn't see what would be wrong with going to dances, etc, now I got more wisdom, but atleast because the law was there, I stayed away from it and all praise belongs to God, I don't find myself among the ignorant ones
Look at the west which is run by the polythiestic Satan submitting magicians and look at Iran, which society is more dedicated to God? Before the Iranian revolution, was the society as dedicated to God as it is now? When implenting God's rule and government dedicated to God and his revelation, then society naturally improves
Islam means submission, so we submit to God in all affairs, we don't look for judgement of other then God in any of our spiritual, social, or political affairs
"if it was not a sin and there was no penalty to go have sex with girls without marrying, I would go do it, while a noble servant of God, like (Yusuf) Joseph (as) the great grandson of Ibraheem (as), "
yes and this prooves that you have a coice it is sad that you would do it if it were not a sin because to me to sleep around is not a sin my conscious says sex is something sacred so i would want to share that with only one person it never comes in my mind that it is a sin a sin is what goes against your conscience and therefore conscience is a virtue of the soul which is gods law not man-made if i lived in iran i would have started a revolution to overthrow these ayatollahs a long time ago, if iran was such a good place to live then why do we have so many asylum seekers escaping from such tyranny please see passed your idealism your way does not work imho.
"one of the noble virtues is that you help people, well these harsh laws and penalties help people not become ignorant and controled by their passions,"
these laws make me angry which is also a strong passion and i would never hesitate to kill those who pass these harsh sentences in my religion i have a god given right to uproot such barbarians we have been doing so since our inception and have never failed ours is not an immoral society yet we have no such laws man and women are kings and queens in my gurus eyes and noone will tell us what is good for us because "sovereignity is a vehicle for self-realisation" i dont want to belittle your shriah but i can standby something which plagues my conscience.
"but having a government with God given laws to us is essential"
then go and live where such laws exist and leave the rest of to live as we see fit and essential to us.
"in anohter angle, why follow man made laws and not God laws? why make our own laws? is not God the most wise and best for judging and choosing? "
whats man-made i have already told you to live by conscience and tht is truly godly it can move mountains the human spirit has done alot for manking by the grace of vaheguru.
"Look at the west which is run by the polythiestic Satan submitting magicians and look at Iran, which society is more dedicated to God? Before the Iranian revolution, was the society as dedicated to God as it is now? "
two things: firstly the west is great and we should all be eternally greatful for the contribution of the west to civilisation i do not buy the satan stuff i think the west has the will of god and good luck to them this is not an attack on islam when i say this.
secondly ask someone from iran who ayatollah khomenie was and where he came from and you might get a rude awakeining ask a tribal person they will tell you the truth the mother of all conspiracies.!!!
"Islam means submission, so we submit to God in all affairs, we don't look for judgement of other then God in any of our spiritual, social, or political affairs"
you can only submit to the prophet not the laws that are written this is learned when the 5 beloved ones willingly gave their heads to the guru for the love of the guru this cannot and will not happen today cos today it goes against our conscience to even respect such laws forgive me i must say what is write i bear no emnity to anyone.
Rite so this debate has been goin on for a while n i got confused half way thru but am beginning to kind of understand sikhism. Im probably going to end up repeating what other brothers and sisters here have said but i just need ur patience ok.
So sikhism is not about who the founder of the religion is nor is about gaining rewards for ur patience or punishment for your wrong doings. We are put on this earth as individuals and just pray to the creator. I didnt quite understand whether there is an after life?! N if so do we know of its features?
Im not sure it was u or one of the very first sikh posters, but had mentioned that it does not matter whether you are sikh, hindu, christain or muslim, as long as u devote ur life to god then your are achieving the goal of your life, is this true?? So what would become of the atheist then?
alright, I see you just want to stick to your blind opinions and even "conspiracy theories" , since you don't want to logically discuss theoratical matters, then just stop responding, just because you get a last post it doesn't mean you "won", but ofcourse you can see it that way if you want
on a theoratical bases, we don't see the point of following man made laws and judgements instead of laws and judgemens from God
you have your opinion, and you are willing to fight and do revolutions for it, but we don't have ours, we simply submit to God and are willing to fight and do revolutions for that
your opinion towards politics and social matters is your own, whatever you choose to follow is your own opnion and has no value to anyone who truly believes in God's wisdom, we are looking towards God's commandments and are proud to be the only religion in the world that values God's wisdom over opinion in all matters of life
I have followed this debate for quite a time now, and would like to answer the questions given that has not been answered properly yet.
But then I will again address that im not interested in an debate, so my answer will be the only reply from me and then im out.
Guru Nanak said “Truth is higher, but higher is truthful living”
This means, that if you need to show you love the Creator, then serve your fellowman instead of spending hours in stupid debates onto which religion is the best. If you love your creator, do something good for your fellowman.
Then I would like to thank you for your modesty, respect and kindness towards us.
I will answer the following questions which some of you has given.
Who does the rest of the world belong to?
Is reincarnation a punishment or a reward?
How can all religions take you to paradise if they contradict eachother
Who was there before God as he created himself.
The verse om circumsicion.
Kabir- Son of God
Ill start in chronological order:
Who does the rest of the world belong to?
In the Guru Granth Sahab we can read these verses:
alahu eaek maseeth basath hai avar mulakh kis kaeraa ||
If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong?
The mosque that is being talked about is the Kaaba in Mecca, and the tafseer to this verse is quite logical. Muslims belive the Kaaba to be the house of God
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YUSUFALI:; and sanctify My House
PICKTHAL: and purify My
SHAKIR: and purify My House
All the above mentions that the Kaaba is the house of God. And also it is a common belief among muslims that the Kaaba is the House of God on earth.
Muslims pray towards the Kaaba, and according to Shia Islam and the imams (as) they are not allowed to expose their genitals and behinds towards this direction.
A muslim prayer is not accepted if it has been made towards another direction than the Kaaba IF the person knows in which direction the kaaba lies.
The verse in SGGS is written in a sentence so that we can imagine this with our mind and therefore it says “lives in the mosque”.
A person in a house is restricted. He can only see what goes on outside if he looks out the window. If he does not look out of the window then the person in the house will not know what goes on.
A muslim prayer is not accepted if it is not done towards Mecca, which implies that God can “only see” the prayer if it is made towards him in Mecca. So the SGGS asks “who does the rest of the world belong to? “if I can only worship Allah in one direction? If I pray towards New York, then who is my prayer addressed to?
That’s how it should be understood. The Guru’s never accepted the Islamic “claim” of only being able to pray against the Kaaba, as God is everywhere and knows and hears everything. If you say that u can only pray to one direction for the prayer to be valid, then it must mean that God lives in that mosque as all he can see is if the prayer is made towards the kaaba..the same way a person will only know what goes on outside a house, if he looks out the window.
Is reincarnation a punishment or a reward?
This is a complex question, so I will answer it without to much details because the reincarnation theory is very difficult to explain fully.
U see, u cant use reincarnation without Karma as they go together hand in hand.
but in short. For some reincarnation is a punishment, and for others it is a reward. That is why some people live a horrible life on earth where they are miserable and bad things constantly happens to them. That’s why people are poor and starving in Africa etc. they are being punished.
But others live a happy life without any sorrow or bad things happening to them. For them it is a half reward. They have maybe not been able to achieve paradise in their past life, but they have been good people, so therefore they will not be punished, but live a neutral life.
How can all religions take you to paradise if they contradict eachother?
This is actually very simple when u think about it.
But first tell me one think. Do u think that your love/devotion to Allah swt is bigger than the Christians love for Jahve? Or the Sikhs love for Waheguru?
If you know people of other faiths, then your answer will be no. because a Christian loves God as much as a Muslim loves Allah swt. So why should this person be punished in hell for something he truly belives is right and which he loves? What an evil God this is, because he calls the God a different name.
In sikhi it says:
One who recognizes that all spiritual paths lead to the One shall be emancipated.
Guru Nanak Dev
Page 142, Line 8
Which means that, yes everyone can go to Paradise BUT, there are some “rules” and this is that the person has also been a good person. A muslim or Christian thinking he will go to Paradise just because he belongs to the “right religion” and does bad deeds will not enter hell.
So the rules for everyone are “Worship and love God, and do good deeds”.. this is the only criteria.
This also means that a religion that tells u to kill and beat up people will not enter paradise as they did’n follow that other criteria of being good.
Page 1102, Line 7
without good karma, you shall obtain nothing, even if you wander across the whole world.
Guru Arjan Dev
And the criteria for a religion in SGGS is:
Of all religions, the best religion
is to chant the Name of the Lord and maintain pure conduct.
Of all religious rituals, the most sublime ritual
is to erase the filth of the dirty mind in the Company of the Holy.
Of all efforts, the best effort
is to chant the Name of the Lord in the heart, forever.
Of all speech, the most ambrosial speech
is to hear the Lord's Praise and chant it with the tongue.
Of all places, the most sublime place,
O Nanak, is that heart in which the Name of the Lord abides. ||8||3||
this means that Worship God and love him in your heart while doing good deeds will take you to paradise. Islam, Christianity and Judaism all tell u to do this. So why should a mercifull God punish people for loving and obey God in the way they think is the right?
So who cares if u think God is three(Christianity), God is one(Sikhism and Islam) or he is within a statue(hinduism) as long as you love him?
This my friend is pure logic, and this is so beautiful. God loves all.
Who was there before God as he created himself.
I don’t know about this and have never read anything about It, but the way I interpret the verse is:
God was there, EVEN before he existed. It may sound weird, but again and again in SGGS it is mentioned that the human mind will never be able to understand the mystery of God.
God is all powerfull, so why should’n he be able to create himself while not being there?
To this theory , u cant use Islamic logic on a different religion. We Sikhs have a different view and we do not share your view. For instance we say God is within all, while still being above all. This will probably also sound weird to you if u interpret it in Islamic view.
And let me tell you, that u will never get anywhere by doing this, because u will never find nor accept an answer that way. Christians say that Jesus is God, which emplies God has a human body. If they use their Christian logic/view on this verse from the Quran:
055.027
YUSUFALI: But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.
They can say that Allah swt is a human being because he has a face. Hence, they are using their own Christian logic on Islam. Other verses mention a throne, which could also emply that God is a humanbeing that can sit astagfarallah!!.
So if you ask a question, then try to think like them and go into our mind and see the logic, instead there is no reason for us to answer your questions.
Another way to understand this verse is that it should not be taken literally, and “created himself” means that he created the universe, as God is within the universe (think like us and don’t use Islamic views now).
In SGGS it says:
Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.
If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?
And you said that nowhere is this mentioned in the sunnah or Quran, but this does not mean that the SGGS is then a false non-divine script.. in many places in SGGS the Guru talks about things that people are doing while calling themselves religios people EVEN THOUG these actions has nothing to do with religion. In the same way it says that Circumcision is done of love for women. The Quran uses the same feature, as to talk about things connected to a religious group even though their scriptures does not mention it. For instance it is said in the holy Quran that Christians belive in trinity even though this is not mentioned anywhere in the bible. It also says that jews made ezra the son of God even though this is not mentioned in the bible.
The same way SGGS says that circumsion is done for the love of women, because this is what people were saying in the times of Kabeer.
I haven’t looked for any sources, but I have one text which says that the muslim rulers back then would circumcise u, and then u were a muslim. This is what Kabeer is talking about. Circumsission does not make one a muslim, even though people said it...here is the relevant part of the story:
One day when the Guru was presiding over the sangat, a man came crying, "The Turks
(Muslims) have converted me to their religion."
"How could they convert you to the religion of Turks?" asked the Guru.
"O True King, they have circumcised me."
"One does not become a Turk by circumcision alone. What else have they done to you?"
Even in modern times we hear the the muslims use the action of circumcision to say whether a person is Muslim or not. During the partition of India, when Sikhs, hindus and muslims were fighting and killing each other, then when the muslims captured some Indian men, they would strip them down, and if they were not circumcised(meaning they were not muslims) then they would be killed. I have heard of this also during a war between Israel and libanon I think.
So the Guru ask’s “If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?“
Is circumcision all that makes one muslim? That’s the questions it asks those that think like that.
According to the one about “love for a woman” I have not heard of this before, but SGGS would not mention it unless people say that it is due to love for the woman. Contrary I found this:
Book 41, Number 5251:
Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.
It talks about circumsicion of women I know, but it still talks about “better for a woman, and more desireable for a husband” so why should it not also go the other way around?
Kabir- Son of God
kabeer poo(n)garaa raam aleh kaa sabh gur peer hamaarae ||5||
Kabeer is the child of God, Allah, Raam. All the Gurus and prophets are mine. ||5||
we are all the sons and daughters of God. Don’t take that verse literally. u guys by anyone should know that u cant take a religious scripture literally..unless u think Islam tells u to beat up your wives?
4:34
Pickthall:
“As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.”
Shakir:
“and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them;”
Scourge means to whip someone.. is this to be taken litteraly? Or the translation that says beat them?
Thou art my father, Thou art my mother, Thou art my kinsman and Thou art my brother. In all the places Thou art my protector. Then why should I feel fear and anxiety?" (Guru Arjan Dev, Majh, pg. 103)
We also say God is our husband, wife, father and mother, and this means that he is EVERYTHING to us. Don’t take it litteraly my friends.
I hope this has answered your questions.. im out for now.
Waleichum Salaam
ps. why all this missionary and preaching. let people live according to the religion that God put them in.
That’s why people are poor and starving in Africa etc. they are being punished.
But others live a happy life without any sorrow or bad things happening to them. For them it is a half reward. They have maybe not been able to achieve paradise in their past life, but they have been good people, so therefore they will not be punished, but live a neutral life.
subhannallah, may God save anyone from such an evil belief!! Islam teaches a very different teaching regarding to suffering and being patient, because all Prophets (as) suffered and the believers generally were always the poor and oppressed of society, while the opposers of Prophets (as) were always the upper class of society
the poor and oppressed according to hadiths, have been chosen over the rest of mankind and paradise is meant for them and they are in it, while the rest of mankind can only enter paradise by doing good to them and loving them
no, no, we believe in rising against oppressors and defending oppressed, not complementing the oppressed and rich and condemning the poor and oppressed, subhannallah, I never seen a more evil statement, all those people in Africa are being punished by Allah (swt) while the rich of the west are being rewarded? Ya Allah, we seek refuge from such a view, and we will strive till your promise of destroyingthe oppressors and being kind to the oppressed and meek in the earth takes place
Your misunderstanding is that you interpret that phrase to mean 'the dwelling of God', which is completely contrary to Islam. "house of God" is the phrase which means that it is the house that is reserved entirely for the worship of God. The Qur'an uses the style of attribution where those things that have a special status with God are mentioned as belonging to God. For example, in another verse God says: 91:13 But the Messenger of Allah [Prophet Saalih pbuh] said to them: "It is a She-camel of Allah [Ar. Naaqat-Allahi]. And (bar her not from) having her drink!"
When Saalih's people, the thamud, requested a sign God produced this miraculous camel as one of His signs - the Qur'an here refers to it as 'the camel of God' simply because of its special status, NOT meaning that it is used by God, na'ûdhubillah.
A muslim prayer is not accepted if it is not done towards Mecca, which implies that God can “only see” the prayer if it is made towards him in Mecca.
Not true. The Ka'ba simply unifies the worship of God in a single direction. For a time, the Jerusalem mosque was the qiblah and not the Ka'ba, until the ruling was changed in the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. This indicates that the important thing is that man be unified in a direction of worship ordained by God.
But first tell me one think. Do u think that your love/devotion to Allah swt is bigger than the Christians love for Jahve? Or the Sikhs love for Waheguru?
If you know people of other faiths, then your answer will be no. because a Christian loves God as much as a Muslim loves Allah swt. So why should this person be punished in hell for something he truly belives is right and which he loves? What an evil God this is, because he calls the God a different name.
Okay first of all, we must agree that despite numerous religions the truth ordained by God can only be one. As the Bible says, God is not the author of confusion. Nor does He lie. He does not reveal one religion with a set of beliefs that are mutually contradictory to those He reveals in another religion. So the first point is to acknowledge that the true path is one.
Secondly, we as human beings must acknowledge that God has not abandoned us in a world of confusion; He has given us the ability to think and reflect upon revelation. Once someone has acknowledged the existence of the one true God than it is only logical that they submit themselves to Him and follow the way of life He has revealed with His prophets. This way of submission to God is what we call in arabic, Islam. So, as God has sent messengers throughout the time of human beings to continuously call them back to the worship of the one God, human beings have an obligation to make use of the mental capabilities God has provided us to seek out the truth. So the Christian who loves God will be asked why, if he truly loved God, did he not seek out the truth and contemplate - why did he satisfy himself believing in self-contradictory beliefs and reject the pure message of Tawhid, Risalah and Ma'ad which the Prophets brought.
Now how God will judge such a person is a totally different matter. It is not for us human beings to decide who is condemned and who is saved - that is God's position. He will judge everyone according to their circumstances and their intentions and He will decide whether they are to be rewarded or punished. And verily He is the most just and He does not the least bit of injustice to His creaton.
Which means that, yes everyone can go to Paradise BUT, there are some “rules” and this is that the person has also been a good person.
How do you defined what 'good' is if everyone has a different system of life? The western concept of morality would be sinful from the pespective of all semitic religions. And what about the atheist who does good deeds while disbelieving in God? Does he deserve to be rewarded with a paradise he denied to exist? When he did not do his deeds for the sake of God, why should he be rewarded by God?
This also means that a religion that tells u to kill and beat up people will not enter paradise as they did’n follow that other criteria of being good.
But what do you do when it comes to the subjective areas? What defines what is good or not? Are you using kantian philosophy that immorality is ONLY in causing harm to non-consenting others? On what basis do you believe that this is the only true understanding of morality?
Islam, Christianity and Judaism all tell u to do this. So why should a mercifull God punish people for loving and obey God in the way they think is the right?
Because they had the audacity to act on what they thought was right and reject what God ordained to be right. Human beings can think and reflect, we don't have to blindly follow something just because our parents did. Our obligation is to find the truth.
So who cares if u think God is three(Christianity), God is one(Sikhism and Islam) or he is within a statue(hinduism) as long as you love him?
First, to say He is in a statue is one of the most blasphemous insults one can direct towards God. There is no value in claiming to love Him if you accept illogical and insulting beliefs concerning Him and reject the truth which He has revealed. If I started slandering you in the media and started propagating lies about you, saying that you were dishonest and so on and rejecting all your rights, is it an acceptable excuse to say, "But I love you" ? If you believe that God is everywhere and consequently that part of God is in sinful human beings who will be punished in hell-fire, and consequently part of God will be tormented in hell-fire - this is falsehood and inexcusable blasphemy!
True love of God is not in accepting whatever falsehood one hears, but in acknowledging Him as He is striving to come closer to Him.
God was there, EVEN before he existed. It may sound weird, but again and again in SGGS it is mentioned that the human mind will never be able to understand the mystery of God.
It has nothing to do with mytsery, you just made a self-contradictory statement.
Another way to understand this verse is that it should not be taken literally, and “created himself” means that he created the universe, as God is within the universe (think like us and don’t use Islamic views now).
You don't need to use an Islamic view, just use simple logic and one can see the self-contradictory nature of such a statement.
we are all the sons and daughters of God. Don’t take that verse literally. u guys by anyone should know that u cant take a religious scripture literally..unless u think Islam tells u to beat up your wives?
This is not an issue of whether to take a verse literally or metaphorically, it is simply taking a verse in context. Your misconception is answered here: http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/TafsirAyah34
ps. why all this missionary and preaching. let people live according to the religion that God put them in.
God didn't 'put' us in any religion other than submission to Him. It is the human being's choice to either blindly follow the beliefs of their parents, no matter how self-contradictory and foolish, or to instead seek out the truth and use the reasoning that God has gifted us with.
Peace
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
I will try to answer your questions in a quick sentence as I have a lot of other members, as you can see above, to deal with but your questions on this subject are welcomed. Firstly:
“So sikhism is not about who the founder of the religion”
the founder is the word which exists today in 2 forms bani which is the word in guru granth sahib ji and the guru panth (khalsa) which is the corporate body politic of the guru which have been ordained by god to carry out all temporal affairs on this earth for eternity.
“ is nor is about gaining rewards for ur patience or punishment for your wrong doings. “
there are no rewards, good and bad deeds are akin to creating a manifesto for your next life (karma) salvation is spiritual oneness with god which comes through naam simran or meditating on the lords name, not prayer.
“We are put on this earth as individuals and just pray to the creator.”
Prayer is not enough.
“I didnt quite understand whether there is an after life?! N if so do we know of its features?”
rebirth and life forms exist which are on this earth, there are many forms of life we cannot see but people are still existing in them such as spirt life forms.
Let me know any more questions I will answer them shortly.
Gurfateh,:thankyou:
Satsriakal Link Ji
Firstly I am going to say that I have not been pig-headed and the responses from you so far are a feeling of dislike because I do not and will not accept your islam as a godly religion I have answered before the nature if koranic revelation and will not been drawn into the same argument because of your denial.
“I see you just want to stick to your blind opinions and even "conspiracy theories"
what are you referring to as blind? My Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the only word of god on this planet because it was written by the gurus hand no other scripture has the same appeal it doesn’t matter whether the companions wrote it in their hearts and minds, stop and think. Conspiracy theory? – well did you ask an Iranian and what did they say?
“since you don't want to logically discuss theoratical matters”
I have never said that we cannot logically discuss theoretical matters what I do however say is that the essence of god is not logical these are 2 separate things had you understood my argument you would see that arriving to this conclusion was illogical.
“, then just stop responding, just because you get a last post it doesn't mean you "won", but ofcourse you can see it that way if you want”
ofcourse and you can say the same I will not stop responding because I feel that my religion is the only hope for mankind and therefore it is my duty to not leave a stone unturned and challenge all manmat in what ever form.
“on a theoratical bases, we don't see the point of following man made laws and judgements instead of laws and judgemens from God”
nor do we, guru panth has gods authority to rule, this is why everyday in the ardas we say “agayaa bhai akal ki thabaai challayoo panth” – by the will of god the khalsa goes into battle, and you know during the wars with the people of the NWFP in moghul times the afridis used to have a saying “khalsa shudaa khudaa” – even khalsa are believers in god. We do not believe your revelation came from god and I have proven this umpteen times please reread the whole thread and don’t be lazy.
“and you are willing to fight and do revolutions for it, but we don't have ours, we simply submit to God and are willing to fight and do revolutions for that”
those who live by the will of god are the powerfull ones because god gives to those who abide by his instruction, look in the world today and see who really has the will of god, people know the existence of something and appease their minds instead of admitting their wrong, is this abiding by his will or negating it to save your ego? Be truthfull if you are a muslim.
“your opinion towards politics and social matters is your own” please don’t say that gods religion is my opinion, Sikhism is the only religion of akal purakh which is accepted by all, even those who follow totalitarian creeds, that it makes sense and gives hope for the future of mankind I see no other, just desperation.
“we are looking towards God's commandments and are proud to be the only religion in the world that values God's wisdom over opinion in all matters of life”
more scribbles, I could say the same: I think it best if you muslims bow out gracefully and let us Sikhs bring the message of god to the world, islam died in the 17th century when our gurus done and dusted the mughals and now your just feeding of the remains of the carcass that was once islam, at that time mothers were scared to circumcise their kids because the of the khalsa but now you have gone into isolation and your egos have now been redeemed but history can repeat itself – see this I can write a bunch of stuff too but ultimately its my opinion as was yours, but mine was more facetious wouldn’t you say?. Be adult and I will respect you otherwise I will give you the same with interest.
“may God save anyone from such an evil belief!!” - - it would only be evil if we then did not provide a free langar for those who are poor which we do, so really whilst accepting the will of god we still try to better those who have created their own unfortunate situation please try to not make knee jerk reactions there is good reason and good faith in all we believe.
“because all Prophets (as) suffered and the believers generally were always the poor and oppressed of society, while the opposers of Prophets (as) were always the upper class of society”
trust me when I say this: suffering in Sikhism is incomparable.
“Ya Allah, we seek refuge from such a view, and we will strive till your promise of destroyingthe oppressors and being kind to the oppressed and meek in the earth takes place”
blind rhetoric, I went on a yatra last year to India and I will tell you that muslims were the greatest refuge in the gurdwara they were given places to stay and a meal 3 times a day, many were refugees from Kashmir but we Sikhs did not turn them away but we believe it is their karma all the same again please try to see passed your own nose. There are many things which I wholly dislike about islam but i dont think its cos your religion is evil just misunderstood.
Satsriakal Ansar Al-adl Ji
“"house of God" is the phrase which means that it is the house that is reserved entirely for the worship of God.”
That’s fine but still there is no house which is reserved for the worship of god except your own body, which is indeed the temple of god which is what Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is trying to make clear .
“This indicates that the important thing is that man be unified in a direction of worship ordained by God.”
So are you saying that you can still be accepted as a muslim and still pray in the opposite direction because if in islam you teach a specific direction then what will become of the prayer in the opposite direction surely if there is no consequence and its just for unity then one can pray anywhere and will not be judged? Do you know during the gurus time people were severely punished if they did not adhere strictly to such measures?
“So the first point is to acknowledge that the true path is one.”
We do not believe this, you are setting a premise here we believe man has created this premise himself it is not godly as Sikhism does not say this. It is neither logical or truthfull to say their can only be one path because it depends on your definition of truth, does truth really have a moral character or have we been brought up to believe that,eg, that which is right is true, that which is good is true? Don’t be a slave to a common frame of reference free your mind from this bondage.
“But what do you do when it comes to the subjective areas?”
this is because the definition of truth is a subjective quality inherent in an individual their can never be objective truth, if their is a hat on your head then you ask me is their a hat on my head i will say yes their is a hat on your head but that is not the truth but it is right that their is a hat on your head, this is why the word truthiness has now been added to the oxford dictionary because the definition of the word truth was changed by Christians the truth was never objective because truth is divine essence failing to understand this people hijack gods revelation and think they have god in the grasp of their palm but god is the only knower.
“First, to say He is in a statue is one of the most blasphemous insults one can direct towards God. There is no value in claiming to love Him if you accept illogical and insulting beliefs concerning Him and reject the truth which He has revealed. If I started slandering you in the media and started propagating lies about you, saying that you were dishonest and so on and rejecting all your rights, is it an acceptable excuse to say, "But I love you" ? If you believe that God is everywhere and consequently that part of God is in sinful human beings who will be punished in hell-fire, and consequently part of God will be tormented in hell-fire - this is falsehood and inexcusable blasphemy!”
ONLY IN ISLAM!!!!
“just use simple logic and one can see the self-contradictory nature of such a statement.”
If it is contradictory then why not show how and we will address it.
“or to instead seek out the truth and use the reasoning that God has gifted us with.”
No, god does not ask someone to seek out truth because god IS truth, therefore the reason and logic business is your opinion it has nothing to do with god, god says the truth is within seek it by meditating on his name don’t be lost in the quagmire of reason and logic, by giving truth a reasonable character you continue to operate in a paradigm which never had anything to do with islam no matter how educated a person is the simple minded one found the mystery that the truth was within it was never outside.
Ansar Al-adl Ji what I have noticed from your response to Amardeep Ji is that whether wilfully or not you have not accepted a universal approach to comparative religion I think this is why there is always a counterargument to nearly all arguments, where god is concerned there is only one god, it the way we humans have contemplated on these messages then subsequestly thought that such approach could be applied to all of gods messages, that is delivering a deadly blow to the pride of faith followers.
Anyhow I hope you receive all the reward that you are entitled to, I am sure you probably have judged yourself by using the Koran and calculated all your good deeds through reason and logic, so now you can sit back and just wait for the good life in the hereafter I don’t mean this offensively it just sounds that this is possible from your response, but for us Sikhs the path is long and arduous only with the grace of god will we be imbued with naam.
Let me know if you have any questions on Sikhism and if you have any problem understanding our doctrine put it forward and we will answer.
Aiesha please do not come onto the sikhism thread and pollute this conversation I stand by all I have said and do not feel that you have a right to make any accusation about sikhism without incurring a penalty, so if you have something to say about sikhism then please do so, I have noticed that many people are picked off from this site by moderators and I am not scared of meeting this same fate but fear not the truth is immortal and I and my people are hear today and everyday whether on this forum or outside of this forum ready to challenge any of the propsterous nonsensense being spouted about our great religion.
IsDhillion im actually glad that u have decided to stay on. Im interested in the beliefs of sikhism, not for the sake of converting, but simply due to the fact you manage to defend your faith quite well.
Im not suprised you do, because the founder of sikhism did not object against any other faith, rather he integrated all of them rite??
But before i go on i am curious as to whether how you believe the quran was revealed? Are u under the impression that its text are just word of men?
And sister aisha i appreciate yuor concern, but i feel as though as long we remain firm and steadfast in our deen, then it can do no harm.
From this read we can reflect upon surah kafirun, n be reminded allah is aware of all that is happening in this duniya
He said that religions were formed, religion in sikhi is referred to as mat but his objection was that dharma had stopped, dharma is where people are actively engaged in feeding the poor, giving to charity directly, defending the downtrodden regardless of any distinction, treating all equally whether they share your belief or not etc etc . At that time only the title muslim hindu jain buddhist remained but the way of righteousness in these religions had stopped the butchers ruled the roost and used the religion for their own ends, when babar invaded india Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji confronted babar in front of his army and shouted "BABAR TU JHABBAR" - babar you are a tyrant, he was subsequently thrown in jail and then Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji sang a revelation which plagued babars conscience and he was released from prison the revelation is from babarvani:
iqlµg mhlw 1 ]
thilang mehalaa 1 ||
Tilang, First Mehl:
16 NULL NULL
jYsI mY AwvY Ksm kI bwxI qYsVw krI igAwnu vy lwlo ]
U have done UR duty trying to explain to dillion about islam....now if he dont listen then im afraid thats his loss!
my advice to u is completly ignore dillion and let him know that anything irrelevant he writes he is merrily talkin to himself.......leav him be!!!
let th mods an admins deal with him
"Deal with him" in what way? I thought this was a "comparative religion" forum, not a "lecture the kaffirs about islam and stuff them if they don't convert" forum!
A comparative religion forum must, by necessity, have and encourage explanations of and discussions about several different religions, and you will never get a significant understanding of any faith unless you hear from someone who lives it, and has not just read about it.
I personally find ISDhillon's posts fascinating, as Sikhism is a religion I know - or at least knew - very little about until now.
"Deal with him" in what way? I thought this was a "comparative religion" forum, not a "lecture the kaffirs about islam and stuff them if they don't convert" forum!
A comparative religion forum must, by necessity, have and encourage explanations of and discussions about several different religions, and you will never get a significant understanding of any faith unless you hear from someone who lives it, and has not just read about it.
I personally find ISDhillon's posts fascinating, as Sikhism is a religion I know - or at least knew - very little about until now.
Thankyou Trumble Ji your words give me hope to carry on and explain my religion more.
okay so religion in itself is man made, but the concept of life is to worship a creator and that is the only true message, even if it mean multiple god, as long we realise there is a supreme force beyond us....rite?
So you believe in the quran being the word of god is that rite? It is not the word of our prophet mohemmed (pbuh), and it was revealed by angel gabriel.
From here i can commence and say that you believe in the quran then. Because if it is the word of god, then it cannot be a lie. Does that mean you also believe in the bible, torah etc etc.
To some extent i agree with religion being made up. As muslims believe that the message rite from the beginning of time has been that there is only one god, allah. As scriptures were sent down, they were constantly being altered by man. But islam has been the prevalent message. Does that make sense???
What i dont understand is the point of this life then. So you believe in reincarnation. Depending on how much you have dedicted your life to your supreme lord, you will either have a good life when u cross over or you will have a bad life. You gave an example of africa. What happens to then now then. They suffer n they suffer n they suffer n they die. Do they live again, but in a better life or an even worse. Once your born your either a beliver or your not. if your a different person in your next life how is that a punishment and how do you recitfy your mistake.
See now with islam, the quran is our proof and guidance. It states our way of life. It clearly tells us our purpose of life. Allah created man and jinn to obey and worship him. It is constantly repeated in the quran, that if one comits a sin, but sincerely repents, he shall be forgiven by his lord. If allah was not merciful there would be mo hope for mankind, as human are prone to maing mistakes, one after the other. But this is the test of life. And if we succeed in passing this test, and that is exactly as you have said, to pray, be charitable etc etc, then you will enter paradise in the herafter. That is eternal bliss. There are no more test there after. So in reality we are only being tested once. If we pass this test then the rest will come with ease by the grace of allah.
I have had this discussion already but will recall passed discussions when answering this. Let me explain this again we believe that koran is a message about god from an angel called gabrielle we believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is god because it is divine expression it was not delivered via a messenger it is from the one who was all-achieving ie, one with god, it has performed many miracles please read the medical reports and testomonies of naam:
Second half of your post deals with after life let me describe what I have learned from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji about afterlife:
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a "love-inculcator" the verses whether taken literally or metaphorically are not the point in terms of "practicing sikhism". The verses exist to stir emotions which will cause a raptourous love affair with the bani and through this undying love you repeat the name of god with devotion night and day. Knowing what will become of us is not important, sikhism is a practical religion which strives to make man acheive the purpose of human birth by using poetry and kirtan, for example it is not possible for a man to use the rules of logic to describe the feeling of love with his wife there is not a set of guidelines governing the emotion in the same sense there is not a set of rules governing the love in gurbani it just exists and those who are caught in the grip of the love will sing the same bani with love.
When the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji talks about hell and heaven it is talking about reincarnation, tell me what in your description of hell does not already happen on this earth?, what in your description of heaven can you not get on this earth?, 84 lakhs (species) etc are a religious and cultural similarity which is adopted in the bani to make it more familiar with the people in indias existing references, it stipulates that there will be reincarnation for all those who did not acheive union. Let me just add some quotes about self-realisation:
Thaakur sarbe samanaa: God is all-pervading everywhere (sggs 51).
Paarbraham aprampar devaa. Agam agochar alakh abhevaa: The Supreme Being is Infinite and Divine; He is Inaccessible, Incomprehensible, Invisible and Inscrutable (sggs 98).
Is gufaa mahi ik thaan suhaaiaa: There is beautiful place within this cave of the Heart (sggs 126).
Pritam basat rid mahi khor: My Beloved lives in the cave of my Heart (sggs 1121).
Is gufaa mahi akhut bhandaaraa. Tis vich vasai hari alakh apaaraa: Within the cave of Heart, there is an inexhaustible treasure. Within this cave, the Invisible and Infinite Lord abides. He Himself is hidden, and He Himself is revealed; He is realized through the Shabad (sggs 124).
Aap pachhaanai ghar vasai haumai trisnaa jaai: Through Self-Realization, one dwells Within the Home of his inner Being; egotism and desire depart (sggs 57).
Aatam mahi Ram ram mahi aatam cheenas Gur beechaaraa: God is in the Soul, and the Soul is in God. This is realized through the Gurmat (1153).
Brahm deesai Brahm suneeyai ek ek vakhaaneeyai. Aatam pasaaraa karan haaraa parabh binaa nahee jaaneeyai: The One Unique Reality is seen everywhere, the Unstruck Celestial Music is heard everywhere, the One Creator is present in all creation; there is none else than He Himself everywhere (sggs 846).
Tohee mohee mohee tohee antar kaisaa. Kanak katik jal trang jaisaa: O Lord, You are me, and I am You — what is the difference between us? We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves (sggs 93).
Sagal Banaspati mahi baisantar sagal duudh mai gheeyaa. Ooch neech mahi joti samaanee ghat ghat maadhayu jeeyaa: Just as the fire is contained in all firewood and butter is contained in all milk; so too is God’s Light contained in the high and the low; the Lord is in the hearts of all beings (sggs 617).
Aatam Ram Ram hai aatam Hari paayeeyai Shabad veechaaraa hai: The soul is the Lord, and the Lord is the soul; by engaging in the Shabad Vichaar, the Lord is found (sggs 1030).
Ghar baithiyaan Hari paaye sadaaa chit laaye sahje sat subhaaye: You wiall obtain God while sitting within the home of your own being, focusing your consciousness constantly upon Him, with true intuitive faith (sggs 246).
Bin Shabdai Pir na paayeeai birthaa janam gavaay: Without the Shabad, one does not find her Husband Lord, and her life wastes away in vain (sggs 31).
Intellect is not a requirement for love we all go crazy when we fall in love intellect and sanity is lost. God does not exist in nature he is outside the realms of body/mind understanding we have to first realise our spirit then we can understand otherwise your level of understanding is taking a quantum leap hence we are manmukh, until we are gurmukh we see things that can be reasoned through this mind.
Now some quotes about reincarnation sorry to paste this but it is important that you understand how much we believe in the concept of reincarnation:
Jevehe karam kamaavadaa tevehe phalte: According to the deeds which one does, so are the fruits one obtains (sggs 317).
Kirat payiaa na metai koyi: Past actions cannot be erased (sggs 154).
Jehaa beejai so lunai karma sandraa khet: As the man sows so does he reap. Such is the field of actions (sggs 134).
Kirat karam ke veeshure...: By the actions we have committed, we are separated from You.... (sggs 133).
Karnee kaagad man masvaan buraa bhalaa dui lekh pae. Jiyu jiyu kirat chalaae tiyu chaleeai tayu gun naahee ant hare: Actions are the paper, and the mind is the ink; good and bad are both recorded upon it. As their past actions drive them, so are mortals driven. There is no end to Your Glorious Virtues, Lord (sggs 990).
Ahi karu kare su ahi karu paaye koee na pakarreeai kisai thaai: As we act, so are the rewards we receive; no one can take the place of another (sggs 406).
Karmee aavai kaparhaa nadree mokh duaar: By the Karma of the past actions the robe of this physical body is obtained, and by God's Grace the gate of salvation (sggs 2).
Haumai sabh sareer hai hayumai opati hoe: Ego is within all the bodies; and through ego the beings are born (sggs 560).
Sanjogee aayaa kirt kamaayaa karnee kaar kamayee: By the good fortune of good deeds done in the past, you have come, and now you perform actions to determine your future (sggs 75).
Poorab janam ko lekh na mitayee janam marai ka kayu dos dhare: The record of one’s past actions cannot be erased; who else is to blame for one’s birth and death (sggs ).
Nanak kamaanaa sang juliyaa nah jaayi kirat mitaayaa: Nanak, only your actions will go with you; the consequences of your actions cannot be erased (sggs 460).
Janam maran dukh pher karam jeeya janam te shoote: The pains of birth and death come from past actions and karma; peace comes when the soul finds release from reincarnation (sggs 475).
Good deeds and bad deeds—the record is read out in the Presence of the Lord of Dharma or Justice. According to their own actions, some are drawn closer to God, and some are driven farther away. Those who have meditated on the Name of the Lord, and departed after having worked righteously — O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them (sggs 9).
On page 1028 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib between verse 8-9 of Maru M1:
“And lo, one is drowned in the well of hell, and comes to sorrow as the fish does the fish without water,
the worshipper of maya comes to pass through the hell of the 84-lak species”
So the fish is in its created state and the hell for it in this creation is to be without water in the same sense a human being will also suffer what causes it hell within the domains of its creation. The second line speaks for itself. Now I am going to say something which is gonna sound like I contradicted my self but I havn’t and that is there are hell places which are assigned to souls by dharamraja but they do not have eternal suffering they all come back to the wheel of 84 after their due. These teachings also cannot be black and white they resemble an overarching definition and when looked at in their totality they give credence to all definitions of heaven and hell reincarnation and suffering, there is space for all faith definitions within the domains of sikhi.
Look here is an example of hell in SGGS:
"There is a stream of fire from which comes poisnous flames.
There is none else there except the self.
The waves of the ocean of fire are aflame.
And the sinners are burning in them." (A.G. p 1026)
look at the possible scenarios available to a sinner for the crime of lust:
O lust, you lead the mortals to hellish existence; you make them wander in reincarnation through countless species. You cheat the consciousness, and pervade the three worlds. You destroy meditation, penance and virtue. But you give only shallow pleasure, while you make the mortals weak and unsteady; you pervade the high and the low. Your fear is dispelled in the Saadh Sangat, O Nanak, through the Protection and Support of the Lord (sggs 1358).
The talk about fire in one of the above shabads is used to arouse an emotion as I have stated in the beginning such emotions cause the seeker to become devoted even more to the lord. As kabir suggests:
Desire not abode in heaven, nor fear dwelling in hell.
Whatever will be, will be, don’t preoccupy your mind with hopes.
Instead, let us sing wonderful Lord’s praises.
From whom we get most precious treasure. Kabir Ji, Raag Gaudi, Pg. 337
Now there is no physical location the guru granth sahib describes the netherworlds as:
Heaven is not a fort with moats and ramparts, and walls plastered with mud; I do not know what heaven’s gate is like.||3|| Says Kabeer, now what more can I say? The company of the true and the wise ones heaven itself (sggs 1161).
So like in the previous thread the words cannot describe the structure if there is one of hell or heaven it is an experience of spirit. Remember that social reform requires that such verses be emotive we have to look at the scripture in this sense for eg we have to get people out of the way of thinking that ritualised prayer will give you deliverance its all about inculcating feelings. To awaken your soul to the true reality.
I hope this helps please let me know if I can explain further,
Before I begin, I just wanted to point out that with long posts if you don't use the [quote] feature, it makes it difficult to follow. To quote someone simply type:
[quote]the text that you are quoting[/quote]
That will make things a lot easier, inshaa'Allah.
format_quote Originally Posted by ISDhillon
“"house of God" is the phrase which means that it is the house that is reserved entirely for the worship of God.”
That’s fine but still there is no house which is reserved for the worship of god except your own body,
Not so. The Mosques are houses reserved for the worship of God.
“This indicates that the important thing is that man be unified in a direction of worship ordained by God.”
So are you saying that you can still be accepted as a muslim and still pray in the opposite direction because if in islam you teach a specific direction then what will become of the prayer in the opposite direction surely if there is no consequence and its just for unity then one can pray anywhere and will not be judged?
Since God has ordained for all human beings to pray in the direction of the Ka'ba, then praying in another direction would be rejecting God's commands. Yes it is about unifying the worship of God in one direction, but it is the direction which God has ordained for us not wherever we choose. If everyone just prays in the direction that they choose then no one will be praying in the same direction anymore, and the whole unity is lost.
“So the first point is to acknowledge that the true path is one.”
We do not believe this, you are setting a premise here we believe man has created this premise himself it is not godly as Sikhism does not say this. It is neither logical or truthfull to say their can only be one path because it depends on your definition of truth, does truth really have a moral character or have we been brought up to believe that,eg, that which is right is true, that which is good is true?
Actually it is a simple point of logic. One person says that God wants us to do X and another person says that God has prohibited doing X. Both of them can't be right. Only one of them can be correct.
One person says that there are three Gods. Another person says that there are not three Gods. Both of them cannot be right. One statement is true and the other statement is false.
“But what do you do when it comes to the subjective areas?”
this is because the definition of truth is a subjective quality inherent in an individual their can never be objective truth, if their is a hat on your head then you ask me is their a hat on my head i will say yes their is a hat on your head but that is not the truth but it is right that their is a hat on your head, this is why the word truthiness has now been added to the oxford dictionary because the definition of the word truth was changed by Christians the truth was never objective because truth is divine essence failing to understand this people hijack gods revelation and think they have god in the grasp of their palm but god is the only knower.
You didn't answer my question. Let's go with some examples - is suicide right or wrong? Is cannabalism right or wrong? Is necrophilia right or wrong?
ONLY IN ISLAM!!!!
So from a logical perspective either it is blasphemy or it isn't. It can't be both.
“just use simple logic and one can see the self-contradictory nature of such a statement.”
If it is contradictory then why not show how and we will address it.
No problem. The statement was:
and “created himself” means that he created the universe, as God is within the universe
The premise is that God resides within the universe. Yet, creating Himself means that He has created the universe, which implies that God is the universe. So before God 'created Himself' neither He nor the universe existed. But something that is not in existence cannot bring itself into existence. If God doesn't exist, then you can't ay God created Himself because there is no God to do anything, let alone create Himself when He is supposed to be uncreated.
“or to instead seek out the truth and use the reasoning that God has gifted us with.”
No, god does not ask someone to seek out truth because god IS truth
Yes, God is the truth. How does that impky that we are not supposed to seek out the truth?
therefore the reason and logic business is your opinion it has nothing to do with god, god says the truth is within seek it by meditating on his name don’t be lost in the quagmire of reason and logic
So you are saying that human beings don't need reason and logic? We should throw away our intellect and just blindly follow the ways of our ancestors, no matter how misguided?
by giving truth a reasonable character you continue to operate in a paradigm which never had anything to do with islam
How so?
no matter how educated a person is the simple minded one found the mystery that the truth was within it was never outside.
The truth is no mystery.
Ansar Al-adl Ji what I have noticed from your response to Amardeep Ji is that whether wilfully or not you have not accepted a universal approach to comparative religion
Well I'm not sure what kind of approach you want me to take if you say that I am not supposed to use any logic or reasoning!!
Anyhow I hope you receive all the reward that you are entitled to, I am sure you probably have judged yourself by using the Koran and calculated all your good deeds through reason and logic
Not my position. That's God's.
Let me know if you have any questions on Sikhism and if you have any problem understanding our doctrine put it forward and we will answer.
Thank you for the generous offer. I say the same to you with regard to Islam. If you have any questions or objections please feel free to ask.
Peace!
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
Sorry Ansar Al-adl Ji i am really crap with computers i dont know which button is noparse but i know the indent one instead i will try to make it more colourfull,
“Not so. The Mosques are houses reserved for the worship of God.”
But even inside the mosque you face the kaaba which is also reserved entirely for the worship of god, does this mean you can face any mosque in the city when you pray to god?
“Since God has ordained for all human beings to pray in the direction of the Ka'ba, then praying in another direction would be rejecting God's commands.”
Then Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji disagrees with this command and denies it has come from god.
“If everyone just prays in the direction that they choose then no one will be praying in the same direction anymore, and the whole unity is lost.”
How Is unity lost? Is a ritual imperative to unity or is it that a group of people can be unified by title alone ie, muslimah. Do you really need to pray in one direction for unity? Is familiarity with procedures a unifying principle? If so what of patriotism which has no clear guidelines what binds those people to the union. Is this why nationalism has seeped in and ummah is broken? Because we need more than just ritual to keep us together we need an understanding far deeper, that we are all one in spirit? Just meandering you don’t have to answer these questions.
“Actually it is a simple point of logic. One person says that God wants us to do X and another person says that God has prohibited doing X. Both of them can't be right. Only one of them can be correct.
One person says that there are three Gods. Another person says that there are not three Gods. Both of them cannot be right. One statement is true and the other statement is false. “
Your question is infact logical and you are RIGHT if something which was true was right then 2 things which are opposite cannot be true at the same time, and one of them is false. However if we have an incomprehensible god who is assigned the title TRUTH, then this truth can create sovereign doctrines anywhere on this earth in this sense the doctrines may differ and one will say x is wrong and y is right etc etc, many rights can all exist at the same time as they all do today exist at the same time the problem is about the way we perceive these differing realities. For instance let me try an analogy? There is one summer (god) and this summer expresses (reveals) itself differently in the many continents (religions) but is the time of summer still not the one (the same period) ? Please advice. And you are right if I were to accept the truth to be right then I am illogical but my religion teaches me a separation of truth (sat) and righteousness (sach), the sat gives birth to right and wrong, wrong from the opinion of right and right from the opinion of wrong but both right and wrong have sat (truth) within.
“is suicide right or wrong? Is cannabalism right or wrong? Is necrophilia right or wrong?”
ok, suicide is righteous course of action to the one who commits suicide because I can never be the knower of the true reality of that person when they committed suicide it was a righteous course of action to them because they chose it, my cousin in fact committed suicide a couple of years back and I was very angry but I realised that to me this was wrong because my reality was that I had felt I lost something (love) and gained something (guilt) but my cousin could not know the reality of me, this is why right and wrong are a perception in Sikhism, the same goes for eating meat etc etc the guru rejects these controversies as manmat. As one becomes more closer to the truth within then they help others also achieve that same state because the irony is that the truth is subjective but that state of being is an objective truth in a collection of enlightened beings, because there is only one truth within all, for eg, death is an objective truth, because the truth within will be released in all people no one escapes this. I know this sounds like a puzzle but read it carefully it will make sense but for islam (well the current interpretation) such views are not in consonance with the teachings of allah which I respect and therefore it is wrong, but the problem for me is that the word truth is attached later to this viewpoint and leads people to saying suicide is wrong and that’s the truth, but in a sikh way you should say suicide is against islam therefore it is wrong. I hope you get the difference in paradigm and I don’t sound patronising cos I have been told I start to patronise people when discussing stuff.
“So from a logical perspective either it is blasphemy or it isn't. It can't be both.”
This is right from a logical perspective if reason can be applied as a common frame of reference in Islam.
“The premise is that God resides within the universe. Yet, creating Himself means that He has created the universe, which implies that God is the universe. So before God 'created Himself' neither He nor the universe existed. But something that is not in existence cannot bring itself into existence. If God doesn't exist, then you can't ay God created Himself because there is no God to do anything, let alone create Himself when He is supposed to be uncreated.”
Ok, can god create a version of himself? Yes he can in Sikhism my soul is the same as gods essence so he has made a version of himself in me, but that was not the contradiction, creation is one form of god, then to say he created himself is acceptable because in the absence of creation god was in an eternal form, so the way I see it, it is the form of god which has changed in this interpretation which I am sure an all-powerful god can easily do, in fact nature is revered highly in Sikhism many shabads deal with the notion that when embrace the earth we inherit the lord etc,.
“How does that impky that we are not supposed to seek out the truth?”
The nature of divine essence in sikhism is known as mulmantar:
Punjabi: ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Transliteration: Ik ōaṅkār sat nām karatā purakh nirabha'u niravair akāl mūrat ajūnī saibhaṁ gur prasād |
English: One God. Truth is his name. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Malice. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~
Because the truth is god and is revealed by the grace of the true guru which is gurshabad as we meditate and attune our mind to gurshabad the truth within (our own mool) is revealed this is why the truth is not discovered externally through reason and logic. But if you believe it can be then thats cool but we as sikhs dont want to go down that rude cos to us thats wrong.
“So you are saying that human beings don't need reason and logic? We should throw away our intellect and just blindly follow the ways of our ancestors, no matter how misguided?”
reason and logic are good for ratinal inquiry especially in science and medicine and technology but not in matters of faith and certainly not to grasp the nature of god, the mind cannot be used to understand god only god/ gurshabad which is what we try to attune our minds too. Do you understand now why we don’t use logic or reason to falsify religious text?
“The truth is no mystery.”
Yet those who claim to be enlightened are branded mystics!
“Well I'm not sure what kind of approach you want me to take if you say that I am not supposed to use any logic or reasoning!!”
Its cool that you take a logical approach but don’t ever believe that this is the only approach to interfaith discourse in my belief islam came from god but Sikhism is the path most righteous because I define truth differently to you but accept your definition only for scholar purpose, but I don’t hold it to be a universal way or system of comparative religion.
Sorry Ansar Al-adl Ji i am really crap with computers i dont know which button is noparse but i know the indent one instead i will try to make it more colourfull,
Just ignore the noparse and indents and all that stuff. Just type the following text that you see:
[quote]the stuff you are quoting goes here[/quote]
Try that.
“Not so. The Mosques are houses reserved for the worship of God.”
But even inside the mosque you face the kaaba which is also reserved entirely for the worship of god, does this mean you can face any mosque in the city when you pray to god?
You are confusing two things here. On one hand we have the concept that 'house of God' refers to those locations reserved for the worship of God. On the other hand there is the fact that God has ordained a specific direction to face in worship so as to unify mankind.
“Since God has ordained for all human beings to pray in the direction of the Ka'ba, then praying in another direction would be rejecting God's commands.”
Then Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji disagrees with this command and denies it has come from god.
But you didn't ask me about Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, you asked me if it was okay for a Muslim to pray in another direction. Obviously the Muslim believes in the Qur'an.
“If everyone just prays in the direction that they choose then no one will be praying in the same direction anymore, and the whole unity is lost.”
How Is unity lost? Is a ritual imperative to unity or is it that a group of people can be unified by title alone ie, muslimah. Do you really need to pray in one direction for unity?
You're right that there is unity on several levels, but God has also ordained unity in direction of our worship. Since God has ordained the direction for our worship, human beings don't have the option to come up with whatever direction they please which could be very dangerous and chaotic.
“Actually it is a simple point of logic. One person says that God wants us to do X and another person says that God has prohibited doing X. Both of them can't be right. Only one of them can be correct.
One person says that there are three Gods. Another person says that there are not three Gods. Both of them cannot be right. One statement is true and the other statement is false. “
Your question is infact logical and you are RIGHT if something which was true was right then 2 things which are opposite cannot be true at the same time, and one of them is false. However if we have an incomprehensible god who is assigned the title TRUTH, then this truth can create sovereign doctrines anywhere on this earth in this sense the doctrines may differ and one will say x is wrong and y is right etc etc, many rights can all exist at the same time as they all do today exist at the same time the problem is about the way we perceive these differing realities. For instance let me try an analogy? There is one summer (god) and this summer expresses (reveals) itself differently in the many continents (religions) but is the time of summer still not the one (the same period) ? Please advice.
I'm not sure what you want me to advise because you've first agreed that truth is not self-contradictory and then you've proceeded to deny it again. God does not lie. Yes, God is the truth but He does not tell one group X is evil and another group X is not evil. As for the summer analogy, how does it relate to truth? The sun can be shining in some locations and not others on a geospherical planet, but the truth in singular regardless.
“is suicide right or wrong? Is cannabalism right or wrong? Is necrophilia right or wrong?”
ok, suicide is righteous course of action to the one who commits suicide because I can never be the knower of the true reality of that person when they committed suicide it was a righteous course of action to them because they chose it, my cousin in fact committed suicide a couple of years back and I was very angry but I realised that to me this was wrong because my reality was that I had felt I lost something (love) and gained something (guilt) but my cousin could not know the reality of me, this is why right and wrong are a perception in Sikhism, the same goes for eating meat etc etc the guru rejects these controversies as manmat. As one becomes more closer to the truth within then they help others also achieve that same state because the irony is that the truth is subjective but that state of being is an objective truth in a collection of enlightened beings, because there is only one truth within all, for eg, death is an objective truth, because the truth within will be released in all people no one escapes this. I know this sounds like a puzzle but read it carefully it will make sense but for islam (well the current interpretation) such views are not in consonance with the teachings of allah which I respect and therefore it is wrong, but the problem for me is that the word truth is attached later to this viewpoint and leads people to saying suicide is wrong and that’s the truth, but in a sikh way you should say suicide is against islam therefore it is wrong. I hope you get the difference in paradigm and I don’t sound patronising cos I have been told I start to patronise people when discussing stuff.
A very long winded explanation, yet I'm still no closer to getting answers for my questions. Who decides when something is right and when it is wrong? Please tell me clearly whether the following actions are right or wrong:
-suicide
-abortion
-necrophilia
-incest
-cannabalism
“So from a logical perspective either it is blasphemy or it isn't. It can't be both.”
This is right from a logical perspective if reason can be applied as a common frame of reference in Islam.
I think reason and logic is universal, and not ethnocentric.
“The premise is that God resides within the universe. Yet, creating Himself means that He has created the universe, which implies that God is the universe. So before God 'created Himself' neither He nor the universe existed. But something that is not in existence cannot bring itself into existence. If God doesn't exist, then you can't ay God created Himself because there is no God to do anything, let alone create Himself when He is supposed to be uncreated.”
Ok, can god create a version of himself? Yes he can in Sikhism my soul is the same as gods essence so he has made a version of himself in me, but that was not the contradiction, creation is one form of god, then to say he created himself is acceptable because in the absence of creation god was in an eternal form, so the way I see it, it is the form of god which has changed in this interpretation which I am sure an all-powerful god can easily do, in fact nature is revered highly in Sikhism many shabads deal with the notion that when embrace the earth we inherit the lord etc,.
So God didn't create Himself.
“How does that impky that we are not supposed to seek out the truth?”
The nature of divine essence in sikhism is known as mulmantar [...]
Because the truth is god and is revealed by the grace of the true guru which is gurshabad as we meditate and attune our mind to gurshabad the truth within (our own mool) is revealed this is why the truth is not discovered externally through reason and logic. But if you believe it can be then thats cool but we as sikhs dont want to go down that rude cos to us thats wrong.
Do you think the truth can contradict logic and reason?
Suppose you find a thief in your house stealing your money. When you confront the thief he claims that a powerful gust of wind sent him flying through your window and the wind was so strong it forced his hands to open and close, grasping your money and shoving it into his pockets. HE claims that his story is the truth. Do you reject his story and say that it is not the truth because it is illogical or do you sit down and meditate and hope some answer will come to you?
“So you are saying that human beings don't need reason and logic? We should throw away our intellect and just blindly follow the ways of our ancestors, no matter how misguided?”
reason and logic are good for ratinal inquiry especially in science and medicine and technology but not in matters of faith and certainly not to grasp the nature of god, the mind cannot be used to understand god only god/ gurshabad which is what we try to attune our minds too. Do you understand now why we don’t use logic or reason to falsify religious text?
No, I'm afraid I don't. Truth should not contradict reason and logic.
“The truth is no mystery.”
Yet those who claim to be enlightened are branded mystics!
Those who? Branded by who?
“Well I'm not sure what kind of approach you want me to take if you say that I am not supposed to use any logic or reasoning!!”
Its cool that you take a logical approach but don’t ever believe that this is the only approach to interfaith discourse in my belief islam came from god but Sikhism is the path most righteous because I define truth differently to you but accept your definition only for scholar purpose, but I don’t hold it to be a universal way or system of comparative religion.
Would you like me to take an illogical approach to dialogue? Would that be better?
Regards
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
The premise is that God resides within the universe. Yet, creating Himself means that He has created the universe, which implies that God is the universe. So before God 'created Himself' neither He nor the universe existed. But something that is not in existence cannot bring itself into existence. If God doesn't exist, then you can't ay God created Himself because there is no God to do anything, let alone create Himself when He is supposed to be uncreated.
God is everything and everywhere according to sikhism, so when it says he created himself it means that he started to create. but in sikhi we also say that God is withinall, yet above all, which is called pantheism in the west.
let me give you an example.
U put a bottle without the bottle top on, into the ocean. the bottle will not float, but go to the bottom of the ocean, and be filled with water.
now. the ocean is outside the bottle, yet inside it also.
its the same with God. he is within us, yet above us.
someone said that "if God is within a tree, and this tree dies it must mean that God dies".
no this is not right. all of you have the same DNA as your parents, but if u die, does it mean your parents will die to? no it does not.
this is the essence of sikhi. he is within all, yet above all at the same time.
these things do not contradict each other. the verses might, but you have to read its full context and know the basis of sikhism before you can tell whether they contradict eachother or not. and i who knows sikhism, say they dont.
regarding the qibla direction towards Mecca, we as sikhs think that God is being limited, as he can only be worshipped in one direction.
you may say this is what God told u to do, but still it limits the transcandent powers of God saying he knows all.
saying that Allah is closer to one than our veins, and still saying he can only be worshipped in one direction, is not something we as sikhs belive in.
but we respect you for believing in it.
Surat Kafiroun as personlly one of my favorite surats from the Quran.
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