marriage and polygamy

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I have a question based on a speaker that came to the University of Idaho. I had been under the impression, based on what I've heard here and elsewhere, that it is accepted in Islam for men who can support multiple wives to marry up to 4 women at once. But the speaker, a muslim, in addressing women's equality in Islam, said this (quoted from the Argonaut) :

"The reason why the prophet was able to habe several wives was that God gave him the ability to treat all his wives with justice and equality and not to favor one more than the other.
The Justice equity was necessary for setting an example. But now men can't take several wives because God didn't give them the same justice equity that he gave the prophet because they are followers of the prophet, not example setters." The speaker went on to say that muslim men are in violation of Islamic principles if they take more than 1 wife.

Is that accurate? I had thought that it was not. I'm not trying to start a flame war over polygamy, just to understand what most Muslims believe.thanks.
 
August said:
I have a question based on a speaker that came to the University of Idaho. I had been under the impression, based on what I've heard here and elsewhere, that it is accepted in Islam for men who can support multiple wives to marry up to 4 women at once. But the speaker, a muslim, in addressing women's equality in Islam, said this (quoted from the Argonaut) :

"The reason why the prophet was able to habe several wives was that God gave him the ability to treat all his wives with justice and equality and not to favor one more than the other.
The Justice equity was necessary for setting an example. But now men can't take several wives because God didn't give them the same justice equity that he gave the prophet because they are followers of the prophet, not example setters." The speaker went on to say that muslim men are in violation of Islamic principles if they take more than 1 wife.

Is that accurate? I had thought that it was not. I'm not trying to start a flame war over polygamy, just to understand what most Muslims believe.thanks.
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Let me quote this from Ibn Uthaymeen's book on marriage,

In the time of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) a man called Ghaylaan ath-Thaqafee35 (radiyallaahu 'anhu) accepted Islaam and had with him ten wives. So the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) ordered him to choose from them four and separate (divorce) the rest. Qays Ibnul-Haarith (radiyallaahu 'anhu) said: "I embraced Islaam whilst having with me eight wives, so I went to the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and mentioned to him [my case] he said: "Keep four of them."36

36 Collected by Imaam Aboo Daawood in the Book of Divorce #2241​
(A Concise Manual of Marriage)

That is what this scholar writes, the individual you hear speak needs to provide evidence for why he believes that, what one should realise is that there are conditions to marrying more than one wife, and the meaning of this conditions should be understood in context of Islamic sources, not our own understanding.

There needs to be justice, if a person can't have justice between his wives then he cannot marry, but what type of justice? A verse does state that we cannot do justice, but again what type of Justice? We as humans cannot do justice with regards to our feelings, but the justice spoken of in the conditions is justice of that which we do have control over, i.e. money, housing etc.

Allah knows best
 
Al Habeshi said:
There needs to be justice, if a person can't have justice between his wives then he cannot marry, but what type of justice? A verse does state that we cannot do justice, but again what type of Justice? We as humans cannot do justice with regards to our feelings, but the justice spoken of in the conditions is justice of that which we do have control over, i.e. money, housing etc.
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so true, may allah reward you brother. the feeling is something that human cant control, but he has to watch himself in what he can control in the treatment to his wives

there is a reason for why polygamy in islam. for example if the husband wanna have children and the wife cant have, then he can marry another woman to have children it is better than doing the forbidden with another woman.
 
SAYA said:
there is a reason for why polygamy in islam. for example if the husband wanna have children and the wife cant have, then he can marry another woman to have children it is better than doing the forbidden with another woman.
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Ameen.

And yes sister mashaAlalh, there are many times where polygamy can work, and we can see the wisdom behind it. Though even if it seemed like there was no wisdom we should still believe it because Almighty God and His Messenger told us.
 
Al Habeshi said:
what one should realise is that there are conditions to marrying more than one wife, and the meaning of this conditions should be understood in context of Islamic sources, not our own understanding.

There needs to be justice, if a person can't have justice between his wives then he cannot marry...
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SAYA said:
there is a reason for why polygamy in islam. for example if the husband wanna have children and the wife cant have, then he can marry another woman to have children it is better than doing the forbidden with another woman.
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The two quotations above give justifications for polygamy. The first one states if a man can be just to more than one wife than he can have more than one wife. The second one states if the husband wants more children and the wife can not bear children than the husband may get another wife.

The Quran, as far as I know, does not offer those reasons for polygamy. The passage I know relating to this issue is Surah 4:3 "And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans marry of the women who seem good to you, two, or three, or four..."

The above passage, through the use of an "if" clause is making the caretaking of orphans the condition upon which polygamy is allowed. I would be interested to know what some others think about the above scripture clearly giving only one condition for polygamy. Are there other passages in the Quran which make justice and the desire for more children a valid condition for polygamy?
 
Salam
As far as I know, Quran does not give any justification for polygamy. Why should God justify His orders? however, Muslims have given justification for the sake of non-Muslims who object to polygamy. Dr. Zakir Naik has given the following answer
Most Common Questions asked by Non-Muslims

POLYGAMY

Question:

Why is a man allowed to have more than one wife in Islam? i.e. why is polygamy allowed in Islam?

Answer:

Definition of Polygamy

1. Polygamy means a system of marriage whereby one person has more than one spouse. Polygamy can be of two types. One is polygyny where a man marries more than one woman, and the other is polyandry, where a woman marries more than one man. In Islam, limited polygyny is permitted; whereas polyandry is completely prohibited.

Now coming to the original question, why is a man allowed to have more than one wife?


2. The Qur’an is the only religious scripture in the world that says,"marry only one".


The Qur’an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the phrase ‘marry only one’. There is no other religious book that instructs men to have only one wife. In none of the other religious scriptures, whether it be the Vedas, the Ramayan, the Mahabharat, the Geeta, the Talmud or the Bible does one find a restriction on the number of wives. According to these scriptures one can marry as many as one wishes. It was only later, that the Hindu priests and the Christian Church restricted the number of wives to one.

Many Hindu religious personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple wives. King Dashrat, the father of Rama, had more than one wife. Krishna had several wives.

In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished, since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives. It was only a few centuries ago that the Church restricted the number of wives to one.

Polygyny is permitted in Judaism. According to Talmudic law, Abraham had three wives, and Solomon had hundreds of wives. The practice of polygyny continued till Rabbi Gershom ben Yehudah (95% C.E to 1030 C.E) issued an edict against it. The Jewish Sephardic communities living in Muslim countries continued the practice till as late as 1950, until an Act of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel extended the ban on marrying more than one wife.


3. Hindus are more polygynous than Muslims


The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that the percentage of polygamous marriages between the years 1951 and 1961 was 5.06% among the Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims. According to Indian law only Muslim men are permitted to have more than one wife. It is illegal for any non-Muslim in India to have more than one wife. Despite it being illegal, Hindus have more multiple wives as compared to Muslims. Earlier, there was no restriction even on Hindu men with respect to the number of wives allowed. It was only in 1954, when the Hindu Marriage Act was passed that it became illegal for a Hindu to have more than one wife. At present it is the Indian Law that restricts a Hindu man from having more than one wife and not the Hindu scriptures.

Let us now analyse why Islam allows a man to have more than one wife.


4. Qur’an permits limited polygyny


As I mentioned earlier, Qur’an is the only religious book on the face of the earth that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur’an:

"Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one."

[Al-Qur’an 4:3]

Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them.

In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says:

"Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women...."

[Al-Qur’an 4:129]

Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife.

Broadly, Islam has five categories of Do’s and Don’ts:

‘Fard’ i.e. compulsory or obligatory

‘Mustahab’ i.e. recommended or encouraged

‘Mubah’ i.e. permissible or allowed

‘Makruh’ i.e. not recommended or discouraged

‘Haraam’ i.e. prohibited or forbidden

Polygyny falls in the middle category of things that are permissible. It cannot be said that a Muslim who has two, three or four wives is a better Muslim as compared to a Muslim who has only one wife.


5. Average life span of females is more than that of males


By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. A female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, during the pediatric age itself there are more deaths among males as compared to the females.

During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the world than widowers.


6. India has more male population than female due to female foeticide and infanticide


India is one of the few countries, along with the other neighbouring countries, in which the female population is less than the male population. The reason lies in the high rate of female infanticide in India, and the fact that more than one million female foetuses are aborted every year in this country, after they are identified as females. If this evil practice is stopped, then India too will have more females as compared to males.

7. World female population is more than male population


In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million more females there are in the whole world as compared to males.

8. Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not practical


Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million females in U.S.A who would not be able to get husbands (considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more than four million females in Great Britain, 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband.

Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes public property. There is no other option. All those who are modest will opt for the first.

In Western society, it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a disgraceful, unprotected life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one wife, in which women retain their honourable, dignified position in society and lead a protected life
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SOURCE:http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm
 
Re: Child Marriage

That's the problem with religion though. It's a snapshot from an ancient culture that becomes locked into place instead of evolving with the rest of the world.

Muhammad had twelve wives, the youngest of which was nine years old. Since Islam says Muhammad was the greatest dude ever, I don't think you're going to find many Muslims who oppose doing what Muhammad did. However, I have seen some Muslims claim (without evidence) that puberty happened sooner back in the 7th century than it does today, so therefore marrying someone as young as Aisha today would be wrong.

I expect we'll see more claims like this from Muslims as Islamic culture continues to evolve. Christians used to think polygamy and marrying young girls was okay—because after all, King David had lots of wives and plenty of them were young. But Christian culture has evolved, and their interpretations of their holy text and heroic figures have evolved to suit.
 
Re: Child Marriage

Qingu said:
Christians used to think polygamy... was okay
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you find it to be unnatural? wrong?
in terms of sexual relationships as long as consent is given, people living in say the US or Europe can do not what exactly?
 
Re: Child Marriage

alcurad said:
you find it to be unnatural? wrong?
in terms of sexual relationships as long as consent is given, people living in say the US or Europe can do not what exactly?
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Actually, I have little problem with polygamy in theory. I think consenting adults should be able to form whatever romantic relationships they choose with each other.

My problem is that, in practice, polygamy is usually oppressive towards females. Historically, polygamy was practiced in male-dominated societies (like 7th century Arabia and 12th-century B.C. Palestine) where women could be bought for a brideprice and were basically considered a man's property. Much of Mormon and Islamic polygamy, as they are practiced today, seem very much like an outgrowth of these oppressive cultures, and I do have a big problem with that.

But I don't have any problem with the "hippie-style" polygamy where men and women form whatever networks of relationships they like. I can't imagine I'd ever do it myself, though.
 
Re: Child Marriage

Qingu said:
Actually, I have little problem with polygamy in theory. I think consenting adults should be able to form whatever romantic relationships they choose with each other.

My problem is that, in practice, polygamy is usually oppressive towards females. Historically, polygamy was practiced in male-dominated societies (like 7th century Arabia and 12th-century B.C. Palestine) where women could be bought for a brideprice and were basically considered a man's property. Much of Mormon and Islamic polygamy, as they are practiced today, seem very much like an outgrowth of these oppressive cultures, and I do have a big problem with that.

But I don't have any problem with the "hippie-style" polygamy where men and women form whatever networks of relationships they like. I can't imagine I'd ever do it myself, though.
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Polyamory?
 
Re: Child Marriage

Qingu said:
...
My problem is that, in practice, polygamy is usually oppressive towards females. Historically, polygamy was practiced in male-dominated societies (like 7th century Arabia and 12th-century B.C. Palestine) where women could be bought for a brideprice and were basically considered a man's property. Much of Mormon and Islamic polygamy, as they are practiced today, seem very much like an outgrowth of these oppressive cultures, and I do have a big problem with that....
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Here is what the Quran says on the matter of polygamy

Quran 4:3
"And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course. "
 
Re: Child Marriage

aamirsaab said:
Here is what the Quran says on the matter of polygamy

Quran 4:3
"And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course. "
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Problem is, I don't see any allowance for women to marry two or three or four guys. :)

And polyamory is probably the more correct term for what I'm talking about, yes.
 
Re: Child Marriage

Qingu said:
in practice, polygamy is usually oppressive towards females. Historically, polygamy was practiced in male-dominated societies... where women could be bought...polygamy...seem very much like an outgrowth of these oppressive cultures, and I do have a big problem with that.

But I don't have any problem with the "hippie-style" polygamy
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women mostly don't get bought these days though, and polygamy seems to be an outgrowth of oppressiveness so you disagree with it?

all societies are male dominated, and our modern economy is an outgrowth of thousands of years of slavery.
 
Re: Child Marriage

Qingu said:
Problem is, I don't see any allowance for women to marry two or three or four guys.
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not very conductive to creating societies that are capable of surviving for long, and less babies of course.
was that a serious question..
 
Re: Child Marriage

alcurad said:
women mostly don't get bought these days though, and polygamy seems to be an outgrowth of oppressiveness so you disagree with it?
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Many women are indeed bought these days. Brideprices still exist in many cultures, where a woman's parents decide who she will marry more than she does.

all societies are male dominated,
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Increasingly less so, especially in the West.

and our modern economy is an outgrowth of thousands of years of slavery.
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I disagree. I think it's an outgrowth of industrialism, which effectively out-competed slavery during the 18th and 19th centuries. Incidentally, industrialism was a liberating force for women, because they could actually find work and make money in mechanized factories.

I think much of "male oppression" has been tied into the fact that men have historically been the bread-winners. When women achieved economic independence, this started the road to equality more than anything. I think this is why there is such a high correlation between feminine equality and economic development in the world. Though places like Saudi Arabia and Iran are obvious exceptions.
 
Re: Child Marriage

alcurad said:
not very conductive to creating societies that are capable of surviving for long, and less babies of course.
was that a serious question..
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Earth has 6.5 billion people and growing. I don't really think "making enough babies" is a problem anymore. In fact, the problem is that people are having too many babies and we're going to have trouble feeding them all.

The most economically advanced societies today have the lowest birth rates.
 
Re: Child Marriage

Qingu said:
Problem is, I don't see any allowance for women to marry two or three or four guys. :)
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The elephant in the room is that in order for even a man to have multiple spouses according to Islam, he must treat them all equally.

Once men think with their brains rather than their loins, they see that keeping more than one woman* happy at any given time is probably not worth the trouble. :)

*i.e. over the age of consent, which for argument's sake is 16.
 
Re: Child Marriage

:salamext:


Note: Islam restricted polygamy to four whereas people before Islam had countless amounts of wives. Furthermore it gave women rights which Europe has given lately to its women (due to the Suffragettes' in the early 20th century.)


If Islam never gave the man a right to marry four women, due to the higher population of women in the world - many would be without husbands. Since the husband has many duties towards his wife in Islam, then he would have to deal with them justly if he were to perform polygamy [multiple marriages.] Just a few examples are mentioned below;

A Muslim woman has a right to her own property (her husband has to earn for her as a duty even if she's richer than him). This still isn't the case in Europe today. Just over a century ago in Europe, a woman had to give all her property to her husband, he owned it - once she was married to him. In Islam, the woman's property is independent and she can spend it how she wishes.

She has a right to keep her own surname (something which has only lately been introduced in Europe.) In the past she had to keep her husbands surname, as if she was his property.

In Islam, a woman has certain rights which still aren't given to women in different parts of the world. A simple one being the sexual rights. If her husband does not fulfill his rights to her, then she can get justice for that. This will be something laughed at in Europe and not taken seriously. Whereas these issues are taken seriously in Islam since that is a big part of marriage.

Islam gives a severe punishment to the adulterer, especially if the adulterer is a married person. So the Muslim male will fear a heavy punishment if he commits adultery whereas a woman in Europe whose husband cheats on her can't do anything at all. She can't get justice and he laughs, enjoying himself while she stays at home [maybe even working overtime], so she can support his child. Is that human rights?


​
So if Islam is so backward, then Europe, supposedly the most 'advanced' of civilizations who we should all take is role models as even more backward. Maybe these people can correct themselves first and then tell us what is right and wrong?
 
Re: Child Marriage

Muezzin said:
The elephant in the room is that in order for even a man to have multiple spouses according to Islam, he must treat them all equally.

Once men think with their brains rather than their loins, they see that keeping more than one woman* happy at any given time is probably not worth the trouble. :)

*i.e. over the age of consent, which for argument's sake is 16.
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I think you missed my point. If it's okay for a guy to have multiple wives (assuming he treats them all nice), why is it wrong for a woman to have multiple husbands?

Your statement itself presupposes that the women are the ones who have to be treated a certain way, by a man—in other words, that they are "objects," not "actors." I realize this is straight out of your religion, but I hope you can see how this kind of worldview troubles a secularist feminist like myself.

In any case, I'm worried we're getting off the topic of child marriages.
 

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